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Ravenfood posted:Are they, though? Because "marry a physical adult with a child's mind who can't consent and also you're involved with the scientific observation of her developmental progress" is pretty gross. Godwin is at least sympathetic in that he's just perpetuating the cycle of abuse that he was the victim of. Max is just awful - his one redeeming quality being that he eventually backpedaled from the child bride plan.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:14
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| # ? May 3, 2024 14:52 |
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Ravenfood posted:Are they, though? Because "marry a physical adult with a child's mind who can't consent and also you're involved with the scientific observation of her developmental progress" is pretty gross. She did consent though? They asked her, she said yes we will marry after I run off and have a sex adventure with Duncan, and they just let her do that? Thematically they have to start out lovely because otherwise where would the conflict come from to leave. By the end of the movie though Godwin realizes Bella means more to him than being a mere experiment and Max respects and admires her as a person instead of treating her like a child.
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Mar 10, 2024 22:31
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She can’t consent because she is 5 years old
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Mar 10, 2024 22:32
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TheMopeSquad posted:She did consent though? They asked her, she said yes we will marry after I run off and have a sex adventure with Duncan, and they just let her do that? Yes, they do end up better at the end of the movie. And at the end of the movie, Bella can clearly consent to marry and does so, which is fine. At the time she and Max are engaged, Bella does not seem like she would have capacity to consent, so the fact that she says yes is completely irrelevant.
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Mar 10, 2024 23:00
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Jay Rust posted:She can’t consent because she is 5 years old She's really like two months old there's really no logic to her mental age at all.
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Mar 11, 2024 00:04
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She can't be that young, mentally, because she understood the idea of running away, the idea of "furious jumping" etc. I'm not saying she was an adult and it was ok, because clearly she wasn't and it wasn't. However, I'd have put her cognitive ability around the mid teens mark at that point, 13-14. Her communication skills are clearly awful and also still developing but she still had a grasp of the world and many other things to some extent. I think the whole point of the film is for discussions like this to take place.. the things that happened to her aren't ok.. but I do think a lot of people are taking things a touch too literally. It was explained she developed much faster etc.. it's an interesting quandary though, does time and actual experience trump metal ability and development? I suppose it comes to the specific topic it relates to.
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Mar 11, 2024 01:34
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To me the point was about the difference between love and ownership, ie the value of letting someone make their own choices versus controlling their actions. Godwin and Max initially try to imprison Bella to their home. Godwin, accidentally developing love for his experiment, understands he needs to let her go and have her own experiences. Duncan likes Bella when she is naive and pliable but rapidly loses control of her. I thought it was telling when he freaks out about her mentioning being already betrothed to Max, “but you chose me over him!” as if he allowed Bella to make any real choices. Allowing her to choose, and respecting the choices she makes, would be a genuine expression of love. While Duncan lies and manipulates or throws impetuous tantrums to grope for control, the General aims a gun at his staff for every request. Max, I feel, was way less developed and I’m not quite sure what to make of him. On one hand he’s shown to be one of the few who does not judge/mock Godwin’s face, but on the other he’s a complicate coward who didn’t tell Bella what she was, went along with Godwin’s plan to marry/trap her, and tried to prevent her from escaping. But he also brought up Bella’s agency w/r/t the marriage, and brought it up again when she returned (not taking for granted that she could have changed her mind)? Crocobile fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Mar 11, 2024 |
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Mar 11, 2024 04:06
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It is a little weird to see a movie about change and growth and then completely discount the change and growth demonstrated by Max by the end of the film. The only person seemingly incapable was the General and well....
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Mar 11, 2024 04:08
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Famethrowa posted:It is a little weird to see a movie about change and growth and then completely discount the change and growth demonstrated by Max by the end of the film. The only person seemingly incapable was the General and well.... 100%, Bella evolved just as Max had to evolve to be worthy of her.
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Mar 11, 2024 04:20
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I dont think he really grew, he was always that dude, he just had the correct emotional response to Bellas growth. As opposed to Duncan who was a giant man-baby.
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Mar 11, 2024 04:58
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TheMopeSquad posted:I think its more simply about womans autonomy because clearly men can do whatever they want without shame. Ruffalo indulges in every vice with impunity. Men can visit brothels but women who work at brothels are vilified. Then the General... well he's just a loving psycho. Its good that we also got some dudes like Godwin and Max to demonstrate men can also be okay. Shame is a mechanism by which societies police (or encourage self-policing) women's autonomy, I don't think it's an either/or. One example: One example
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Mar 11, 2024 09:27
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I could not help but thinking it was Paul F Tompkins at first
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Mar 12, 2024 01:10
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I just found out Mark Ruffalo was also in 13 Going On 30, where he makes out with an underage girl in an adult woman’s body Is this intentional Tarantinoesque filmography-based casting
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Mar 12, 2024 17:26
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Ravenfood posted:Are they, though? Because "marry a physical adult with a child's mind who can't consent and also you're involved with the scientific observation of her developmental progress" is pretty gross. The moral contrast between Max and Godwin vs. Wedderburn and the General is not that one side is moral and the other is immoral, but that Max and Godwin have malleable senses of morality. They're obviously up to questionable poo poo under the auspices of "medicine" and "science", and they struggle to orient themselves with the responsibility they bear toward Bella when she's still not a fully-formed person. But it also means that Max and Godwin are able to embrace Bella's agency and forgive her for breaches of morality while she grows, which is a more humane quality than the rigidity and cruelty of the others. It's a complicated message about morality that mirrors the complexity of child/parent becoming one in Bella's person. The movies actually engages with a fundamental question about the ethics of reproduction. God refuses to revive Victoria because he has compassion for her act of suicide: she decided not to exist anymore. But he does something obviously kind of monstrous through the brain transplantation, which neither Victoria nor Bella could consent to. I can't remember the exact line, but when Bella confronts God about the nature of her existence, she ends up forgiving him for creating her because she is "finding life to be interesting" or something like that. And her life is only interesting because she pushing the frontiers of her society's morals. There's something here about parents forgiving children for their transgressions and children forgiving parents for forcing them to exist, and Bella being both of those at once means she has a uniquely paradoxical power to grant that kind of forgiveness. Anyway I just mean to argue that you genuinely can't understand this movie if you're determined to classify the characters as "good" or "bad".
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Mar 12, 2024 20:57
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Nitevision posted:Anyway I just mean to argue that you genuinely can't understand this movie if you're determined to classify the characters as "good" or "bad". Or almost any non-Marvel movie really. But yeah, good post
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Mar 13, 2024 07:45
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Nitevision posted:There's something here about parents forgiving children for their transgressions and children forgiving parents for forcing them to exist, and Bella being both of those at once means she has a uniquely paradoxical power to grant that kind of forgiveness. There is a lot of this also going on with Bella's conception of her mother, once she learns how she came to be, and is the whole point of why she chooses to go with the General - trying to understand why her mother tried to kill herself while carrying Bella, and eventually understanding and integrating that into her full maturity.
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Mar 15, 2024 23:04
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This was a terrific choice of film to test out a new home theatre setup on, such a beautiful and rich looking production. Been commented on before, but the staging and transitions from B&W to colour and more 'realistic' sets is just so well coupled with Bella's development. I viewed a lot of the steampunk and abstract elements as us seeing the world through the eyes of someone with very little context. In particular the staging in Alexandria with Bella seeing poverty from such great heights of a somewhat actual ivory tower. Bella's choice to go with the general to me is also a perfect statement of her character at that point. She's looking for experiences both good and bad as she sees living as a constant experiment, something that needs to be actively pursued and an opportunity to grow. Stone deserves every accolade but man, Ruffalo is amazing, loved his performance. His character devolving while Bella grows in to an actualised and confident person is so good. Just a literal snivelling piss baby by the end of his arc. Film is jam packed with great physical performances. This is my favourite Lanthimos film by far, and I really like his other works.
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Mar 16, 2024 05:01
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I really love the bit on the boat where they're standing outside their cabin just looking at each other and there this awkward silence where Emma is stealing glances off the side like "what's going on?" and Mark is quietly getting more and more emotional his eyes start tearing up and he meekly goes "Ill be in the casino!" turns away and runs off. Like Emma is great for the range of her role but Mark completely nailed his part and every time I see him agonizing internally and further losing control of his life I laugh my rear end right off.
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Mar 16, 2024 06:25
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Yeah Ruffalo commits to the part in a really fun way. He's hilarious.
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Mar 16, 2024 09:05
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It made me super frustrated when a character says "We're stopping in Athens in three days" and then the next title card is "Alexandria." Later someone says "the ship is stopping in Marseilles" and the next title card is "Paris." What the gently caress
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Mar 16, 2024 22:00
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lonelylikezoidberg posted:It made me super frustrated when a character says "We're stopping in Athens in three days" and then the next title card is "Alexandria." ??? You can't take a Mediterranean liner to Paris, you'd get off at the major Med port city and then travel by train. Wedderburn and Bella have a conversation about how they've used up his remaining money travelling there
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Mar 16, 2024 22:10
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Failed Imagineer posted:??? You can't take a Mediterranean liner to Paris, you'd get off at the major Med port city and then travel by train. Wedderburn and Bella have a conversation about how they've used up his remaining money travelling there Why clearly identify one location and then immediately set your action another? Everything is filmed on sound stages and there's nothing gained by setting the action in Paris vs. Marseilles - there's nothing uniquely "Parisian" about the Paris sequence.
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Mar 16, 2024 22:22
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lonelylikezoidberg posted:Why clearly identify one location and then immediately set your action another? Idk, to imply the passage of time? Can't imagine this being an issue. Sorry there was no establishing drone shot of the Eiffel Tower lol
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Mar 16, 2024 22:27
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Failed Imagineer posted:Idk, to imply the passage of time? Can't imagine this being an issue. Sorry there was no establishing drone shot of the Eiffel Tower lol Do you hear some sort of whistling sound when you miss the point?
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Mar 16, 2024 22:34
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lonelylikezoidberg posted:Do you hear some sort of whistling sound when you miss the point? It's hard to hear anything at all from my pedestal of sneering superiority tbh
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Mar 16, 2024 22:35
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I did notice the Marseilles and Paris thing, but I kinda respected the film for not explaining it. Obviously it’s an issue if you’re a backwoods bumpkin who can’t intuit the relationship between two French cities. But the film generously assumes you’re able to connect the dots.
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Mar 17, 2024 12:09
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lonelylikezoidberg posted:Do you hear some sort of whistling sound when you miss the point? Might just be you lol
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Mar 17, 2024 22:18
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Mike N Eich posted:Absolutely loved this film. Probably my favorite of 2023 (though I watched very few films that premiered last year). Just resonated with it from the start. Emma Stone was wonderful but Mark Ruffalo nearly steals the show as the archetypical Victorian cad. God. So polite society does destroy you? Saw this last night, some funny lines and scenes but 20 minutes too long and kind of a bummer. Left me feeling kinda gross? But it’s weird, strange and entertaining. Emma Stone totally goes for it and it’s just mesmerising watching her
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Mar 18, 2024 06:24
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Something I haven't seen discussed much is that there's a very clear costuming discussion to consistently have Bella in really big poofy sleeves/shoulders, but exposed legs. Kind of curious what the thinking was, other than "it's a distinct look to make Bella stand out" and "Emma Stone has attractive legs".
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Mar 18, 2024 06:50
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bewilderment posted:Something I haven't seen discussed much is that there's a very clear costuming discussion to consistently have Bella in really big poofy sleeves/shoulders, but exposed legs. Kind of curious what the thinking was, other than "it's a distinct look to make Bella stand out" and "Emma Stone has attractive legs". I guess it's also a riff on victorian fashion (the sleeves that is) updated for the film's own aesthetic  
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Mar 18, 2024 15:18
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bewilderment posted:Something I haven't seen discussed much is that there's a very clear costuming discussion to consistently have Bella in really big poofy sleeves/shoulders, but exposed legs. Kind of curious what the thinking was, other than "it's a distinct look to make Bella stand out" and "Emma Stone has attractive legs". A lot of times the “shorts” she’s wearing are 1930s style tap pants (ie underwear/lingerie), with 1890s style bodices. The costuming is so fantastical I’m not really sure if we’re supposed to interpret it as her running around with no pants/skirt like a kid would? No one really reacts to her like she’s dressed inappropriately, so idk? That blue outfit (the one posted above) does have a matching floor length skirt she wears at one point. My instinct is that she’s dressing herself kinda haphazard like a kid would, but no one in the film ever comments on it.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:44
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Interview with the costume designer: https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/a46076903/poor-things-costume-interview-2023/
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Mar 18, 2024 18:04
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when you're being mean to me this is who you're being mean to i liked this movie, more than i liked oppenheimer(i generally dislike biopics, even if that was a cut above most in the genre) and out of what i managed to go see this year i would have either given best picture to either this or Killers, probably Killers as I think that's a more "important" film and i still can't believe it got snubbed like it did. the best actress is a harder question but whatever. i was discussing it with a buddy the other day, and what i took away from it upon watching it with my wife was an interesting story about a mind that emerges from the ether into a fully formed body - a mind that grows up much faster than ours are allowed to, learns behavior from internal and external sources, and possesses the freedom and strength of will to decide "this is good and makes sense to do, and i will totally discard and disregard all the rest of the societal bullshit." I viewed it as a commentary on behavior socialization. When she returns home from her life abroad and sees that God and Max have just decided to *do it again* and calls it monstrous... *chefs kiss*. Good stuff. Beautifully shot, too, although I feel like I lack the vocabulary to describe how it makes me feel or why I liked a particular shot or scene. Thinking about it now the one thing that still kind of is nagging at me is the bit where she gets rid of all of Mark Ruffalo's money and the two sailors take it under false pretenses - I was expecting her to maybe learn a lesson about the untrustworthiness of other people but that's never touched on again. Idk. Not everything has to be a chekov's gun, I guess.
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Mar 19, 2024 13:59
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I talk about my "she's actually 5000 yo dragon" animes: ridiculed, disenfranchised, probated, burnt at a pyre. Hollywood does a "she's actually a baby inside an adult body": awarded, celebrated, promoted, seen as good film making. Did not expect a cameo appearance by internet superstar goatman but hey, good on Lanthimos keeping old internet traditions relevant. Cant wait for more entries in the Poorverse, do they have a slate for what other movies they are making for this phase?
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Mar 20, 2024 00:28
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what
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Mar 20, 2024 06:32
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First: the manner Bella spends early part of the movie repeating synonyms to express things. Second: where I dig my grave with the dichotomy between adult-in-child-body VS child-in-adult-body in fiction Third: goat, man  (The General in the end)Fourth: I cannot wait for more slop in this universe, since that's the only way movies work today, with more planning than five-year programs and nothing being its own self contained vessel. TLDR: movie good I'm still wondering the purpose of the sailor killing the seagull at the start of The Ship sequence. By sailor superstition that's bad luck and one focal point in that chapter is Duncan and his fortune at the casino, but also Bella's bad fortunes with being hurt by The Cynic, she's also dressed in pure white for the Alexandria part, like the gull having the life snuffed out of it. The whole ship is cursed to hurt everyone on board of it and the crew are part of the ship. The two sailors steal the money from Bella, Duncan is punched in the gut by the Custodian (who also murdered the gull previously) when informing the duo of their eviction. Molrok fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Mar 20, 2024 |
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Mar 20, 2024 07:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otQt9yXZ_Ss&t=11s
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Mar 21, 2024 13:11
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I loved the bit in the brothel where the father is teaching his kids how to gently caress, and Bella adds "Sometimes if the man is having trouble (because the father is in that moment), a finger in the anus or a mild choking can help... there we go." Older son starts adding to his notes
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Mar 24, 2024 21:19
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She's not wrong
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Mar 24, 2024 21:45
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Did the book also have the recurring line of "what", or was that just a movie thing?
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Mar 24, 2024 23:50
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