Tekken 8 to the streets

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Umbreon: May 21, 2011

This is my first Tekken game and I picked whoever looked cool and wound up with King. Based on what I'm reading so far, I am an objectively bad person for playing this character. Is that correct?

# ¿ Apr 16, 2024 16:39

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 19:07

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Well drat. After spending the night just getting comboed for almost the entire match with no ways to break out of it and rarely ever getting to actually participate in much of anything, I don't think this is actually for me. I've played plenty of fighting games in the past, but this game has so much stuff that I found shockingly horrible that people just consider fine and normal. Like getting hit with one quick attack and boom 50% of your health is gone or more depending on the character and that's just normal? So many of my matches were over in 10 to 15 seconds across so many characters, I didn't even think anybody was particularly op or anything, I just sat there getting comboed and wondering why my wake up options were all whiffing or getting counter hit into another combo.

I assumed I was just new and bad that I was seeing wasn't normal, but then I started watching actual good players on YouTube and holy poo poo this is actually the way people normally play? Like ideally you want to make sure your opponent doesn't get to play as much as possible, and people find it fun to hit somebody once and then combo them for half their health or more, and then fish for hits to do that again and the match is over?

This really blows, I actually like this game a lot and it was really cool on so many levels, but so much stuff it's just shockingly bad to me that I can't ignore it.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 02:12

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Artelier posted:

just so you know, this is pretty much the ideal high level play across fighting games in general

it's okay to not like tekken or think it's not for you or you don't enjoy it! but this aspect is common, especially as you get into the more competitive levels - this iteration in particular has very strong tools to keep the initiative and i think it's acknowledged across the player base

a lot of people will find a thing that works, hopefully it leads to a situation where they get to force you to guess, and hopefully, they themselves don't have to guess and even if you guess right, they are at best, back at even between the two players - the genre is oppressive like that

What was killing me the most about this is not just that it's like that at high level play, it's moreso that I'm already facing this right at the bottom of the ladder. With other fighting games, I could see the crazy stuff they do at high level and think "oh that's never going to happen because I'm never going to be that good anyway so I'll just sit down here and scrub land and actually get the have matches that last longer than a few seconds, I'll play with my friends who are roughly similar skill level since we're all casual and just stay low rank since anyone who's good will be doing that to each other all day at a higher rank".

But I was consistently getting hit with this horrible stuff right off the bat in my first hour of ranked play. The barrier to entry on doing that is shockingly easy, TOO easy in my opinion. With everyone and their mom able to do it, there's nowhere that's really safe from it, so you either learn how to do it to other people and make them suffer too, or you leave. I can't bring myself to learn that kind of stuff, it's really frustrating to have that happen to me and I don't want to inflict it on anybody else. I'm sure everybody's used to it and they'll just say "that's Tekken", but to me that still feels super gross. The were a couple matches where I actually did that to other players and man it felt really bad, like I was just shooting fish in a barrel and I didn't really earn those wins.

I think I might just be too much of an overly sensitive baby to properly enjoy this game. On paper I can see how the action is extremely fun and intense, especially when you know what you're doing and you can tell what's going on and what to do about it. I'll keep pushing through, maybe there's some fun to be had and being a punching bag who never really combos you or does anything that ends your match in a few seconds but still wins somehow, I don't know.

This game is just too cool to give up on completely.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 03:53

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Pockyless posted:

This game isnt for you if you think doing a combo is cheap

Combos are cool as hell, I just wish they weren't so lethal for how little it takes to do them.

WorldIndustries posted:

yes, sorry

Ah, I was signing myself up for posts like this when I was being honest, so I can't blame you for it.

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

I guess the question is, are you unhappy that you're getting hit with big combo damage, or that it exists at all?

Most launchers that lead to that are very unsafe and can be punished with big damage in return if you block them, or they only launch if they counter hit, so in both cases they are less effective on defensive players. These moves exist because their threat discourages players from just randomly swinging, which actually encourages thoughtful play and working on movement and defense. If it's specifically the feeling of being juggled and losing control, yeah I guess that doesn't feel great, but Tekken has always been a very lethal game and earlier games also just ended in a couple of touches -- it's just that the actual pokes did hella more damage. Combos encourage more stylin' and and also increases the importance of the wall which is a huge part of the game.

I guess it's -- what would you want fighting in this game to be, and maybe we can suggest playstyles or something that would fit in here. I guess it comes down to mentally framing getting styled on as "suffering," I guess there are people who think of that as agony (I have been guilty of this too lol) rather than just part of the fun of it lol

Edit: like, this is what actual fighting game suffering looks like

https://twitter.com/kauloversace_/status/1779468886594711917

It's the feeling of being juggled and losing control for so long. Another fighting game I've played in the past and enjoy a lot is Blazblue, where they have a combo breaker system that allows you to free yourself out of a combo once per match(roughly) as it can be done during hitstun and launches your opponent backward and away from you when it hits. At a minimum, it gives you some agency even when you're getting trashed, you at least have one more chance to try again. For a game as lethal as Tekken, I think something like that would be cool. If not that, then safer options on wake-up would be cool too, to reduce the amount of getting comboed and then reset into another combo and then the match ends without you ever actually doing anything.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 04:40

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Edit: Oh, I really ahve to check since you mentioned a 2d game and talked about getting launched a lot... You do know that crouch blocking is not the default in this game and will get you launched right

That much I could tell, yeah. It's actually one of the qualities that got me to try this game in the first place, it was so foreign to me that a fighting game would default to stand blocking rather than crouch blocking with lows being the slow things you want to react to rather than overheads.

Artelier posted:

I get the frustration, and unfortunately, maybe Tekken 8 is just not the game for you? This one has the Heat Smash, has the Heat Dash, and has quite a number of armour moves, which makes it even extra oppressive over regular Tekken. Like previous games also did massive damage (cue infamous Tekken 7 Akuma/Geese) but they didn't really have any real get out of jail free cards.

But also, this part shows a difference between how you think and how I think at least:

When I'm getting combo'd, I don't like hang onto the feeling that I've lost control, I'm normally spending it thinking.
- Do I know the character? What's the common ender at the end, and how are they likely to follow up, and what should I do?
- Do I have data on the player? Are they likely to drop and I need to react fast if they do? Do they have a certain mixup that they favour over others (almost always the answer is yes) and what can I do about it? Are they steadfast and risk averse (probably should play it safe) or are they greedy at this moment in time (they might go high risk, what can I do to punish them for it)?
- How fancy is the combo? (A good gauge of their confidence level, especially if they're doing a fancier than usual one)
- How did I get into that situation in the first place? It's a hit yes, but was it because I was trying to mash at a time I shouldn't have been mashing? Am I sure - should I attempt to induce the same situation and try a different response on my side? Or should I try to make sure it never repeats again, and if so, how?

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think of myself as not playing the game even though I've lost control or gotten punished for guessing wrong or anything like that. I'm mostly "Ah, drat, okay. Let's see....."

Not saying necessarily that you have to think this way or to engage the game on this level either. If you've already hit your tipping point, maybe talking it out and possibly dropping the game is best. I'm just saying this is how I approach fighting games in general, and if you try maybe there's still fun to be had there. Or maybe it feels like it's too much effort and that's it for Tekken 8. That's okay too.

I guess the main point of frustration is that I'm new to this game and I really want to actually interact with my opponent more and get better, but only having a couple of chances of that per match really sucks. It's not completely worthless, the chances I get are valuable and I do my best to learn from them, I just wish I had more room to make mistakes and keep playing before the match ends, even if the same applied to my opponent.

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

either ditch the game now because you aren't having fun, or keep playing until you figure out basic blocking, movement, oki and counterhits. you are not getting reset into another combo, you don't know how to block or you're getting counterhit by mashing. tekken is a hard game to learn, it would not be prudent to assume you know enough to start reworking it in your mind.

honestly i'm not sure how anyone can form a decent opinion of a fighting game on day 1. how much time did you spend learning the systems and playing with the cpu before jumping online? for that matter, and don't take this as an attack, but are you posting here for sympathy or because you want to get better?

A reset means you missed an opportunity to block or otherwise escape being comboed and your opponent started a new combo, usually affecting things like damage proration. That is what's happening to me, although as I play more matches it's happening less, I'm guessing because my MMR is sinking enough that I'm finally getting placed with actual newbies and low skill players rather than vets picking up Tekken 8. I completed the arcade quest, spent a few hours with the CPU, and did a lot of practice in training mode before I headed in.

I also agree that no one can have a decent opinion on a day one of a fighting game, that's why I'm still playing right now despite how frustrating it is. I'm just posting my initial impressions and frustrations is all. For what is worth, I got my first batch of rage quitters today, apparently people really hate it when I repeatedly throw them on wake up as King and 2 people in a row disconnected the moment I chain grabbed them at near 0 HP.

Yes I felt bad, but I quickly learned people can just spam some sort of light attack and stop me from jag sprinting at them, so I guess anyone who falls for that needs to learn more too

Umbreon fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Apr 17, 2024

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 07:47

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Char posted:

Umbreon, I went through that frustration phase too, check my earlier posts!
I found there's less skill transfer from 2d fgs to Tekken and my noob phase isn't over yet, but at least I was taught how to start engaging with the game.

I'm reading your posts, I swear. Everyone here, even the people being lovely to me, are getting read. If I don't respond to you, it's unlikely to be on purpose!

interrodactyl posted:

The only way you're getting launched so much is if you're pressing buttons constantly when it's not your turn or you're literally holding forward into their attacks.

You are getting to interact a lot with your opponent, you're just losing those interactions consistently.

Let's say each combo does on average 70 damage. It will take 3 combos to kill you each round since every character has 180 health. There are 3 rounds in a match, and it's first to 2 in a ranked set.

That means you are getting to make at least 18 meaningful interactions with your opponent even if you were to lose every single one.

You can watch two replays and see at least 18 times that you got hit and why, and you can even take over your character from that point in the replay and figure out how to win the interaction. (For most of those the answer is to hold back to block.)

A lot of combos in Tekken 8 are easy, but the only reason you're getting hit by so many is because you made decisions that caused you to get launched. If you did that 18 times in a first to two set then yeah you should probably lose.

Realistically you are probably interacting with your opponent 10+ times in a single round, so I really don't understand how much more you want opportunities to not gently caress up.

Is it greedy to want more anyway? This game is crazy fun and even exciting, which is all the more reason that it blows when the match is over in what feels like a flash.

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

correct, you missed the opportunity to block because you either don't understand how blocking works or you're mashing. i don't know what "damage proration" means, I don't think it has anything to do with tekken.

e: oh, you mean damage scaling! no buddy you just got hit lol. scaling starts at the start of a combo and you didn't block, so you just eat it again. next time, block or don't swing.

The stuff I'm getting reset on the most seems to be big sweeping attacks while I'm trying to wake up from being comboed. I did a bit of research and found that these attacks are typically homing, which explains how theyre hitting me no matter which direction I roll, and as theyre also hitting low, they can catch my wakeup attacks too. How do I deal with those? I even tried delaying my wakeup a bit but that gets me hit too.

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

cool, but a lot of people are giving you advice that you seem to be selectively ignoring, which is why i asked why you're posting here. if you just wanna vent then i think you've said your piece, if you want to learn then start asking questions and listening to the answers.

Nope, not ignoring anyone, you guys(despite the few who are also making GBS threads on me) got me to reconsider my opinion, and I've been applying the advice too. I'm no longer losing every match and I'm starting to see blockstrings and gaps to fight back at where I didn't before. Likely because of my rank going into the toilet, but that's fine by me.

Tortolia posted:

If it�s any consolation I�m bumming around Mighty Ruler rank (18th Dan) and still have sessions where I�m just getting dumpstered because I�m misjudging when it�s safe to hit a button or anything along those lines and get an extended trip to the wall for half my health. Game�s hard to learn and I�ve absolutely had sessions where I rage-queued longer than needing to before just slamming alt-F4 after one too many losses. Tekken is just gonna be like that sometimes.

The replay and training tools are excellent though if there�s something specific you want to try to figure out how to handle or punish, and I know folks in here have posted replays for review and advice before if that�s a road you want to go down.

If nothing else, hey, you�re playing King. Try to figure out a few throw options (especially those with a 1+2 break, folks mashing in low ranks aren�t going to break those with any regularity) and live up to the character reputation.

That's the current hardest part for me, it's really hard to tell when it's safe to hit a button, and I still have to figure out which buttons I'm allowed to press. Much of the time, nothing comes out when I try to press, but I'm counterhit so the game saw that I was pressing something. Or, the hitstun lasts so long that my input for my counterattack gets eaten and when the next attack comes out I'm just standing like a chump and take it in the face without doing anything. Or, I actually do get a button off, but it doesn't have enough range or it whiffs. Those are all things I'll learn about as time passes, but there's one thing I'm still clueless about :

There are many times when I go for a throw, I see the animation of my throw start and it lands on the opponent, but when the actual attack animation starts, it's ME getting thrown. It looks like theyre just completely overriding my throw while just standing there beforehand. How are they doing that?

Pockyless posted:

I'm not joking or trying to gatekeep you, but if the game "feels super gross" to do offense then the game legitimately isn't for you.

You're not trying to, but if I wasn't stubborn as hell you'd be unintentionally doing a great job of gatekeeping.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 16:31

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

you can't wake up from being comboed. when the combo is over, you're lying on the ground. you can either hold back to get up and block, or down back to get up and block low. whatever you're doing that isn't one of those two options is getting you killed, stop it. homing moves have almost nothing to do with grounded states. stop reading terminology, half understanding it and making assumptions.

listen to me. you don't know how to play. you know next to nothing about tekken. i'm begging you to slow down, realize what you don't know, ask questions and take the advice that's given rather than bumbling around and posting about bumbling around while everyone who does know how to play yells at you.

I am literally doing that. You just answered a question of mine that I'm supposedly not asking. You need to slow down too my man. I'm here in this thread asking questions and applying advice, no need to accuse me of otherwise.

As for the wake-up options, Yes I'm aware you can't wake up from being comboed, I'm talking about after the combo is over and they do a follow-up move while I'm trying to wake up. Holding back seems to work great if I was pushed far away from my opponent, but if they're still on top of me and I try it, my character seems to just lie there and leaves himself open for a second, which often gets me hit again. Is there some sort of timing to getting up while blocking?(Like "don't hold it too early of the input won't count", or "only try to block on wake up once you're sure you're free to act again")

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 16:55

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

he's completely right. tekken 8 is entirely balanced around oppressive offense. you spent your first 3 posts in this thread complaining that getting blown up and blowing other people up in this game feels bad and you don't like it. what the hell else are we supposed to say?

There are some other posters who emphasized and gave helpful advice. They're *right there*, next to the people telling me to stop playing.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 17:02

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Tortolia posted:

This is going to sound like a shitpost, and obviously it's not true at all times, but someone in this thread a while back pointed out something for another new player similarly having issues:

If you're not sure if it's your turn yet, it's not your turn yet, don't hit a button.

Like yeah, if you think about it objectively you're never going to win a match if you don't actually do offense yourself, but a lot of the early game and early ranks (particularly against some of the more prevalent matchups) is internalizing how many hits their common attack strings are and waiting for them to finish doing them, or getting a sense if the 4th hit is going to be a slow wind-up that you can duck or sidestep or throw them out of or whatever. On a similar note, a lot of low rank folks get really into round-start flowchart and almost always do the same thing, so if you notice that happening, you can try to devise a countermeasure; throw them, duck, sidestep, do a quick jab if it's slow, etc.

All this being said, the whole "poo poo, when is it my turn" thing is an ongoing and long term concern, particularly against particular characters or matchups that you're not as familiar with. I've noticed recently that the periodic Nina matchups I'm getting are a real struggle because she has just incredibly rolling offense that I'm not really confident enough at dealing with.

I can't speak towards the latter other than it might be some sort of rollback thing where you both tried to throw and their input technically beat yours; if it's specific characters it's happening repeatedly with I also couldn't rule out some sort of counter stance or whatnot. Are there particular matchups you feel this is happening during?

No particular matchups, and it doesn't happen every match or anything, it just confuses the poo poo out of me because the timing so perfectly matches when I expect to see my own throw that it actually takes me a second to realize I'm the one being thrown instead. And man, I've been kind of subconsciously hanging back and feeling out opponents offense, but you make a great point, I need to start doing this more actively and with the intention of learning about gaps in blockstrings and what options they have. I'll for sure lose many matches doing this, but the knowledge will pay off big time later.

WhatEvil posted:

Umbreon, what rank are you at? I feel like you must be missing some real fundamentals like knowing what wakeup options you have.

First of all, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D58LncnVbXM

If you haven't already watched it, I *guarantee* there are at least a couple of things in there you don't know about.

Then, wakeup specific:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqen6VfqcC8

This vid talks about all your wakeup options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRQJZUY-YA

This vid talks about how to block from wakeup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEymS90T5D0

This vid talks in some detail about an option most players below like, red or purple ranks possibly don't know about - you can press up to get up more quickly.

So basically - mash 1 to roll immediately on landing (when landing flat at the end of a combo - does not work when you land with legs up which allows opponent to continue the combo), hold down and back or back to block straight after standing, or use up to stand up more quickly and block mids/highs more quickly than you would if using back or down-back. If you still find yourself getting hit by stuff on wakeup, lab against the character and moves you're having problems with specifically. Sometimes if you don't know what to expect, don't know the matchup etc. it can be better to eat one hit on the ground THEN stand up, than it is to stand up and get hit with something while waking up and launched into another combo etc.

More generally just practice practice practice. Watch videos - PhiDX on youtube is a fantastic teacher (one of the vids above is him). Watch specific videos on the issues you're having plus watch more general tips - because there might be things you're not doing or not doing right/optimally, and you don't even know it.

Most importantly GET IN THE LAB AND ACTUALLY PRACTICE SPECIFIC STUFF. Throw breaks, wakeup, punishes, combos, stuff like that. If you're having trouble against a specific character or specific moves from a character then get in the lab and practice that poo poo. By far the easiest way to practice is to use Replays. Right after you finish a match, when you feel all butthurt about a particular move or combo or whatever that your opponent was using on you, that you don't know how to deal with, go use the replay to practice how to counter. There are a ton of vids out there on how to practice, how to use the lab, how to use the replay system to improve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKpEGJh3pts

This is tough for a new player, but you really just have to practice. Take note of which moves from which characters are giving you trouble, get in the lab and figure out when those characters are at minus frames. A couple of things you might not know that can help:

You can buffer inputs. This means that if you get a block off on a move, so long as the block is actually happening, you can release back and push a button and the move will come out the instant the block animation is over. If you wait for it to look like it's safe, like the opponent attack is over, then hit the button, you will lose frames and might miss a punish you otherwise would have hit. Of course if you release and try to push to early, it won't work and you'll get counterhit.

Some characters have strings where you can get hits in between e.g. hits 2 and 3. Azucena, Xiaoyu, Dragunov, Jin all come to mind. I can't tell you what the move names are but I'm pretty sure they all have them. Or maybe more specifically they *look* like strings but they're sort of not? I don't know how best to describe it.

Anyway, know what your fastest punish is - it's usually a 10 frame jab. If you want to work out, in the middle of a match, if you can get a hit in after blocking a specific opponent move, the first thing to try is your fastest move. If you can't get a punish in with that, then nothing else is gonna work. If the jab works, you can potentially try with an 11,12 frame move, if that works you can try the next time with a 13 or 14 frame move, and if that works you can try with a 15 frame launcher. But honestly the best thing to do is GET IN THE LAB.

The main thing people should be telling you is this: Do your homework, or stop complaining.

Practice to learn to counter the things you don't like, if you still don't like is, or you're not willing to do the work to practice and get better, then they're right, the game is not for you.

It's like if you were learning chess and kept complaining "Oh man I keep getting beaten by the King's Indian Defense, this game sucks, it feels horrible". The answer would be to do your homework, practice, learn better fundamentals and general techniques, do specific study against the King's Indian Defense, and if you still hate it, or you're not willing to do the work, then the game is not for you. If you can continue to play and get beaten by the King's Indian Defense once in a while, but still enjoy it, then great, keep playing. The answer for Tekken is exactly the same. Only instead of the King's Indian Defense, you might hate King's running dick punch.

If people are being lovely to you it's because you're making general complaints about how certain aspects of the game are just "bad". They're not going to change, so either suck it up, learn how to play better, or stop playing. I encourage you to learn to play better, which is why I put a load of effort into making this post, but honestly it seems to me like one of the things you could do to increase your enjoyment of the game is to change your attitude towards it.

Incredibly helpful post, there's a gold mine of new stuff in here that'll help me a ton. That wake-up guide alone has already won me a few matches, I had no idea there were so many options on wake-up and I was even doing one of them incorrectly and getting myself hit(but not anymore!). Your effortpost is EXTREMELY appreciated, thanks a ton for this. I've got a lot of homework to do, but it's exciting and I can already see where I can put this stuff to use.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 17:43

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Shockeh posted:

I feel the need to call out, based on some of these posts, that 'Hold Back' on wakeup is not get up and block. It's roll back, and you can get blown up for it.

The safest of the options is Tech Roll if allowed (press 1 as you hit the ground) or just press Up then Back to stand & block.

Can confirm, pressing up to rise instantly puts you in blocking state and this has saved my rear end today repeatedly.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 00:43

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Is that what I sounded like when I came in this thread? I am so sorry

# ¿ Apr 21, 2024 00:07

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 19:07

Umbreon: May 21, 2011

Tortolia posted:

How’s King treating you?

I'm at a point where learning even a simple low damage combo would help, I just need to find something that can go off of a fast poke. I've gotten much better at blocking pressure, I still get hit all the time but often it's stuff that can't lead into a combo because it was too fast and too far away. I just need something that I can fight back with now.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2024 00:53

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