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Something tells me Bill Demott is not going to provide an unbiased view of the subject.
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Feb 15, 2024 07:48
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:56 |
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I think Patterson in particular will be very difficult for lots of people to talk about for two big reasons. The first is that I don't doubt he faced a hell of a lot of homophobic abuse throughout his career, and for many years it's been normal to conflate that with the rumours about him merely being exaggerations borne out of prejudice. I throw my hands up completely and admit that I bought into that. The second is that, unlike a lot of Vince's cronies, he was actually considered to be somewhat decent at his job, in that he was able to put together top-quality (WWF-style) wrestling matches, so he's often singled out by wrestlers as having a positive impact on many careers. People probably don't feel so indebted to or protective of those who were generally incompetent throughout their time with WWE, ie Laurinaitis. That said, he absolutely was part of Vince's inner circle for many years, and as such should be treated with the utmost suspicion. I also think it will be tempting to "rank" his crimes alongside those of Phillips, Garvin, etc. which we should try to avoid for the most part: every accusation should be treated seriously and someone should have to answer for it, even though/because the man himself is no longer with us. This isn't so much aimed at this forum, just the wider world of wrestling. I'm not sure anyone will hear me though. 
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Feb 21, 2024 14:33
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With that claim about Kevin Fertig in mind, I have to wonder about the implications it has for his career trajectory. He was bought in with a fair amount of hype as Mordecai after having been in developmental for a couple of years, had a PPV match with Bob Holly which is only notable for Holly apparently completely sandbagging him, and sent back down to OVW after only a couple of months on the main roster. He was then given a second chance with the vampire gimmick in ECW a few years later, doing nothing of note until being sent to developmental again and then getting released. He did so little that I'd never heard these sorts of allegations; did anything else ever come out about him?
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Feb 21, 2024 16:37
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Alan_Shore posted:Why is Nash canceled for his comments but people are bending over backwards to justify Cena's pretty awful defense of Vince? I'm not sure who you're referring to here but I'm guessing people might be more lenient towards Cena because he's a current mainstream star and one of the faces of not just WWE but wrestling in general. Nash was obviously a big star at one point too, but he's not exactly "current" in the same way. As such, certain groups are going to take criticism of Cena's defence of Vince (or, worse yet, accusations that he was directly involved) as an attack on their love of WWE/wrestling/something else that Cena's been in. It's incredibly stupid but it's been an Internet thing for years, and it's only gotten worse with regards to wrestling in recent times. The wording probably has a lot to do with it too. Cena, as is typical for him, speaks in lawyer-friendly terms, while Nash was ignorant and offensive with what he said. I know what you mean though, both can certainly be as bad as the other with regards to covering up someone's crimes.
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Feb 21, 2024 17:59
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Has WWE ever done anything more horrible from both an on-screen and off-screen perspective than the diva search? The women were treated like garbage so the wrestlers and management could have their way with them, and even if you wished to ignore all of that in favour of what was purely on TV, the skits themselves were excruciatingly awkward and unfunny. I hope they lost viewers, both short-term and long-term. EDIT: Ooh, looks like I was beaten to it!
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Feb 22, 2024 19:33
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rotinaj posted:How in the world could a segment like Christy hemme declaring her butt is hungry and then sitting in a pie ever lose the audience This is one of those I look back on and immediately think "This is 100% a fetish thing for Vince and/or Vince's cronies".
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Feb 22, 2024 20:05
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In the public eye, I feel like the Polanski case is kind of similar to Patterson in that a lot of people might be willing to let their crimes go due to them being at least fairly good at their jobs. Repulsion is a great film, as is Chinatown, and even going as far forward as The Pianist. Great works of art can affect you personally, and it's hard to let them go even if you know their creators might be awful people. I'm not being so blasé as to wheel out the "separate the art from the artist" argument without any irony or introspection, but it's difficult and I don't really know how to properly confront it. You can always look for new things to enjoy, certainly, but who's to say those hypothetical new creators won't be terrible people also? Online publishing, Youtube and indie wrestling have all had more than their fair share of scandals. And that's before you even consider that most people aren't creating and have never created things as special as Repulsion, or 45 Mercy Street, or Fitzcarraldo, or the Black Triptychs, the list of difficult great art is practically endless. I have some amount of sympathy for wrestling people who struggle to condemn Patterson and the like on the back of all this, albeit not that much. Of course, wrestling is a trashy entertainment that's benefitted from being closed off from any sort of respectability or scrutiny for decades. And I would argue that even if Bitches Brew is a great album, you kind of still have to acknowledge that Miles Davis was a horrible person. Whether you can still enjoy the works in question probably comes down to you and any privilege you might hold, but yeah, wrestling probably shouldn't be a major priority in any case.
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Feb 24, 2024 04:21
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WWE also has a nostalgia factor for a lot of people despite it being regularly problematic. It's similar to all the people who continue to wax lyrical about old British sitcoms despite a lot of them being extremely racist, sexist or plain not funny. Childhood feels safe when everything in the present feels unstable, even though memories have a distinctive way of lying to you. It's been a thing in Britain for decades due to the country being less relevant internationally, which is why certain groups of football fans continue to sing "TWO WORLD WARS AND ONE WORLD CUP!", but I think it's been sharply increasing in the US and elsewhere more recently for various reasons. Heck, I'm not immune to it. There are times when I've watched clips of Stone Cold with the zamboni or the beer truck just to have a quick laugh at the old days. I haven't done so recently for obvious reasons, but maybe I'll get bored one day. My various privileges (ie not being a woman in this case) grant me a lot of distance to examine, if not outright enjoy, things that might be no-go areas for others. It's an ongoing battle (one which pales in comparison to the battles that actually matter, like getting justice for those who deserve it) to reconcile that with one's self-understanding and care for the victims.
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Feb 27, 2024 20:33
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Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I've long thought about the Plane Ride from Hell and that if Vince stuck his head through the curtain separating the wrestlers from first class and promptly told them to knock their poo poo off and go to sleep, they probably would've done just that. He didn't because they were living the exact working culture he wanted to encourage. Heck, much like these "ribs" he probably found the whole thing hilarious.
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Apr 3, 2024 15:23
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I distinctly remember his announcement of the revival having a classic conservative line in the vein of "We're not political but players aren't allowed to take a knee!!". As if it wasn't already embarrassing before that.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:00
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 00:56 |
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Wrestling being what it is - a niche entertainment with an insular culture that has historically rewarded and protected various strands of terrible people - I think fans are just better off being quietly wary if it bothers them, at least until more solid info can be ascertained. Otherwise you're likely to lead yourself into major disappointment. Remember when David Starr was held in high regard by most of the forum? Pretty much any abuse perpetuated at AEW will not fall into the same context as what Vince McMahon did, because he was effectively the dictator of a huge part of the industry for decades, but engaging in a somewhat tribalistic manner over who may or may not be culpable seems a bit disrespectful to me. It shouldn't matter where a potential abuser works, regardless of whether you like or dislike their company. I'm not wagging my finger at anyone in particular because I think most folks are pretty good about this here, but leave that sort of argument for the muppets on Twitter or wherever.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:45
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