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Yea, and Sink recognizes that Sobel is a fantastic leader for training, not combat, so he puts him where he's going to do the most good, training more paratroopers. As was said, He clearly fancied himself as some great combat leader, he's literally wearing Patton Cosplay in the field, but he's awful at it. The worst part is he doesn't listen to his officers recommendations which straight up gets them eliminated during the exercise, and he doesn't try to improve his field skills. He can't read a map, a skill boy scout leaders need to have, let alone soldiers going into combat. I do love the post jump chaos. Winters is left with only his knife, and he's still got his little compass on his pants fly that helps them find where they might be. He's such a ridiculous field leader its bonkers. I also really like Guarneer giving the other guy poo poo, and when he gives Guarneer poo poo back, he says "i like this guy!". He's your "guy who acts like he doesn't care but he does" guy.
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Apr 13, 2024 03:10
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I rewatch Band of Brothers every couple of years, and in the final scene when Winters quotes Grandpa about being a hero in the war, I choke up every time. Hell, I choked up a little bit just typing this. The chance to talk to them during production had to help with the authenticity. The real life pilots covered in MOTA are all gone, most for a few decades.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:53
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My grandpa is 98 and was 16(lied about being 17) when he went into the Merchant Marines riding on the Liberty ships. They are almost all gone at this point. His brothers joined the Navy but he got an extra $100\mo to go Merchant Marine so that was an easy decision.
George H.W. Cunt fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 15:23
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Like the above poster said, no real military knowledge is required to understand the sobel winters dynamic (as depicted in the show). Sobel is a deeply insecure person who compensates by treating everyone below him like garbage. His training methods are not some 3d chess master best practices aimed at creating a crack military unit, they are the flailings of a petty tyrant who wants validation from both his superiors (check out the look on David Schwimmer's face when he's being promoted) and ironically, from the men he constantly shits on. It's mostly a lucky accident that sobel's methods produce Easy Company. It's not like sobel is in charge of all of their training anyway. There are countless other NCOs and officers that contributed to the training of these men- and it's clear that the competence the easy company soldiers have in the field was not learned from sobel but from either their own experiences, common sense, or from training received from other specialists in the army.
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Apr 13, 2024 16:27
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On my much slower rewatch of BoB and I'm at my favourite episode, The Breaking Point. It's really heartbreaking just during the veterans interview when Malarkey is talking about how he thinks he weathered losing friends better than others in the company and even then he can barely make it through the interview before he starts to choke up just thinking about it. Foley was brought in to replace Peacock as 1st Platoon's new LT, right? He shows up earlier on the episode when Dike is giving the lieutenants a briefing before Peacock goes home. Was he already attached to the company at this point or is it a continuity error? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 01:21
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I've watched most of the show now and it's ... fine? Picking Masters of the Air as the source material is a bit of a weird choice, since that book is generally so high level and deals with the big picture and the whys of the daylight bombing campaign, which then strangely is completely missing from the show. I mean, it's not that strange: a bunch of generals arguing about philosophies and trying to bend Churchill's ear into favouring their approach wouldn't give us the dazzlingly beautiful bomber boys we need, so that poo poo needs to go out the window. And yes, the book does also feature first hand accounts from and stories about some of the men who fought in the 100th, but I have to think it might have been better to use something like John Corner's excellent Combat Crew as the primary source material, since that book largely focuses on Corner's own crew, while also drawing from other books to get our "these poor fuckers just got annihilated" content. But hey, at least the book is more credible than Ambrose's Band of Brothers, the poster child for the "just trust me bro" school of research. I think the main thing I like here is that we haven't really had any high quality aerial combat for ages now, and the show definitely delivers that. I have some doubts about some of the specifics, and have a feeling that a lot of the dogfight scenes have been sweetened up a bit to make for more exciting TV, which is kinda understandable but also kinda lovely. It's the same thing as with Greyhound: the actual subject matter was already incredibly dramatic and gripping, and we didn't need to add a loving U-Boat commander who pops up to the surface to taunt the Americans, or make the B-17 crash landing into an RAF commander's vegetable field literally happen on the edge of Scotland so the plane's bottom can scrape the cliffs before ditching. The parts of the show that aren't aerial combat and bombing fair much less well, possibly because it's so rushed. I think topics like the mental strain of the bombing campaign on the airmen and the ways they tried to cope with it are definitely worth exploring, but doing it in part of one 45 minute episode just isn't enough. If I hadn't read the book and didn't have the additional deeper discussions in my head, I don't think I would've gotten much out of the Flak Farm episode etc. Here it just comes off as I dunno, like they feel like they had to get some ~hot romance~ and crying bomber boys in the show and so here you go, there's Bucky loving and there's some guy being sad, boxes ticked. The show also has an unfortunately one-sided point of view, and bear with me for a moment, because gently caress Nazis, I am not expecting a pro-Nazi show. But I did roll my eyes a bit in the episode where Egan gets shot down. In the previous episode we see him walking through the ruins of a bombed London city with a woman gut-wrenchingly wailing for her killed child. Then in the next episode Egan is taken through a German city that was just bombed. Would have been a great moment for some reflection, maybe? Remember that poor English woman? Well, these people are also suffering just like that, because their leaders are murderous lunatics who started a war and insist on keeping it going to the bitter and bloody end. Hell, the book IIRC has chapters dedicated to discussing the effect of the bombing campaign on German civilians, so it would even have fit the source material! But nope, instead the German mob does what a German mob does and immediately starts brutally and insanely murdering the downed airmen, making it perfectly clear that no, these are all the bad people, and fire bombing their cities is in fact a Good Thing. Which did happen, and there's no excusing it, but it also happened with downed German crews in England and with downed enemy crews EVERYWHERE and wasn't -- as the episode's description says -- the inhuman cruelty of the Nazis. Yeah I know, joke's on me for expecting nuance from my TV show, but there we are. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 08:46
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about half a year ago the canadian parliament honored and gave a standing ovation to a member of the SS, maybe it's better if the west doesn't humanize nazis if it leads to this kind of behavior
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Apr 14, 2024 09:15
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Doktor Avalanche posted:about half a year ago the canadian parliament honored and gave a standing ovation to a member of the SS, maybe it's better if the west doesn't humanize nazis if it leads to this kind of behavior He was a member of a Ukrainian unit of the SS, and some dumbass MP thought "lets find a Ukrainian war vet to cheer on" and didn't bother to do any research. There's also a monument to them, talking about defending Ukraine from the Soviets, ignoring why the soviets were invading Ukraine during ww2.
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Apr 14, 2024 17:37
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The German populace was far more complicit in the war crimes of the Nazi government than popularly believed. The key to hang onto is the scene in Band of Brothers where Webster angrily asks the German baker "are you going to tell me that you never smelt the loving stench?" They didn't not know. They didn't want to know. I know I'm painting with a wide brush here but, like the post above me says, maybe it's ok to not humanize them right now. edit: Post above the post above me, now.
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Apr 14, 2024 17:39
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McNally posted:I know I'm painting with a wide brush here but, like the post above me says, maybe it's ok to not humanize them right now. I dunno. In general I think we should humanize everyone and try to understand how normal everyday people with normal everyday lives can end up doing hosed up things, so hopefully we can try to prevent it from happening again. And just in the general sense of "we're all human beings here". Portraying the enemy as inhuman monsters generally doesn't lead to good places. But even beyond that, I think it's kinda crap and dishonest film-making, especially when we're 80 years detached from the war in question, and have the benefit of decades of research, analysis and discussion. Turning the German villages Egan meets into a bloodthirsty lynch mob that's filmed constantly in a horror movie villain style just feels lazy and cheap, but also not true to the spirit of the book, or the men who fought in the war. They had plenty of doubts and questions about the morality of dumping thousands of pounds of bombs on cities when they knew full well that a formation of B-17s couldn't just blow up the target, but also level blocks upon blocks around it in every direction. Of course some others didn't and were glad to be bombing civilians to hell. Hell, if you don't want to humanize the Germans for some reason, you could also have shown that a lot of the victims of area bombing were prisoners of war, slaves and prisoners of the Nazis because the places that were good targets for bombing were also close to the places where the Nazis kept the slaves who toiled in them. And again, this all with the disclaimer of gently caress Nazis and gently caress everyone who idolizes Nazis. E: and this isn't a problem just about the Germans, but pretty much all the non-Americans in the show. All the British airmen we've seen in the episodes I watched (I believe the Tuskegee Airmen episode is next for me) sound and act like Family Guy level stereotypes. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 18:20
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McNally posted:The German populace was far more complicit in the war crimes of the Nazi government than popularly believed. I've always wondered about stuff like this, what can the baker/a hypothetical German do? Was making a run for the border and trying to defect a viable option at any point?
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Apr 14, 2024 21:58
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ilmucche posted:I've always wondered about stuff like this, what can the baker/a hypothetical German do? Was making a run for the border and trying to defect a viable option at any point? Watch the Deep Space Nine episode "Duet" which explores that very question in a fictional context. Spoilers: the character in the episode worked at a death camp and was so horrified by the atrocities and his own cowardice that he disguises himself as the camp operator in an attempt to force his homeworld to admit to their complicity in genocide by goading the camp sirvivors into publicly executing him for war crimes. When you're away from the slaughter, out of sight, out of mind, it's easier to rationalize away your own inaction. What can you do? You push it aside and go about your life, for one reason or another. Or you could do something about it and face those consequences for standing up. Or you could leave, but what then? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 22:12
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Arc Hammer posted:Watch the Deep Space Nine episode "Duet" which explores that very question in a fictional context. Spoilers: the character in the episode worked at a death camp and was so horrified by the atrocities and his own cowardice that he disguises himself as the camp operator in an attempt to force his homeworld to admit to their complicity in genocide by goading the camp sirvivors into publicly executing him for war crimes. This doesn't feel like it's answered the question but I'll read it again when I'm not falling asleep
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Apr 14, 2024 22:18
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ilmucche posted:This doesn't feel like it's answered the question but I'll read it again when I'm not falling asleep Well think about it like this. What could that baker at Lansberg have done? What exactly does fleeing for the border gain you? Is one defecting baker going to stop an ongoing genocide? What does he know that could stop it from happening. What can any one person do. They were deep in Germany at the time, not near the border. That baker is ultimately powerless in the face of people with guns. He's not sympathetic, his indignance and feigned ignorance of the holocaust see to that. But on a collective level the choice was made not to act. Even if you grew a spine and did something about it, people with guns will have their way over people without. Your hypothetical question is one that everyone who did stand up for what was right had to ask themselves at some point. It took insane amounts of courage by the Germans who did help people flee the country, but the depressing fact is most people aren't that brave and would rather turn a blind eye to murder than put themselves in danger. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 22:25
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Thinking about what you'd have to do, there are a few things. You could send a letter to someone outside Germany, but can you do that without getting caught? Did the German authorities spy on their own mail? If you could get a letter out, would anyone believe it? You could try to leave the country. But where? In order to get the information where it needs to go, you'd need to get through the front lines of the war, where you'd likely get caught immediately and shot as a spy. You could go the other way and try to get info out from another country, but then you've got the police and soldiers questioning you along the way asking why a baker needs to be bee lining for the border. Those things would all take courage, and maybe a death wish to accomplish. The very least they could have done is say "hey, there is some sort of death camp up the road" as soon as the Americans show up and occupy the town. But they didn't do that, so gently caress em.
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Apr 14, 2024 23:08
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There was a The Rest is History series on the rise of Nazism. One of the lessons is how gradually the Nazi state introduced worse and worse measures, but also how much local volunteerism there was. The hatred for Jews predated the Nazis. They just let it loose and accelerated it whenever it cooled down. The German complicity was part fear but it's also part having someone in authority tell you it's alright to hate. They absolutely earned that feeling of shame. It's also true the Nazi state was intent on turning anyone who wasn't cooperative into dirt. So screw these people but also shutter at the situation they were in.
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Apr 15, 2024 05:01
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Its expressed pretty well at the end of Judgment at Nuremburg (1965?) where the judge finally loses his lid at all of the good people in the community he's met over the course of the film and how exactly did none of you know?
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Apr 15, 2024 06:36
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Cojawfee posted:Thinking about what you'd have to do, there are a few things. You could send a letter to someone outside Germany, but can you do that without getting caught? Did the German authorities spy on their own mail? If you could get a letter out, would anyone believe it? They did, and the punishment for something like that would have been death. Hell, they had spies and rear end kissers everywhere to rat on their neighbours and coworkers for not being Nazi enough, and the punishment for that was death as well! A factory worker identified as Marianne Elise K. was sentenced to death for telling this joke in 1944: "Hitler and Göring are standing on top of Berlin's radio tower. Hitler says he wants to do something to cheer up the people of Berlin. "Why don't you just jump?" suggests Göring." It's super easy to sit here in 2024 going "well I would've done X", and as much as I like to believe I would have done something, I'm not sure I would have. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have become a Nazi believer and would have opposed them at least in my head, but beyond that, would I have had the guts to step up to a seemingly unstoppable machine of destruction, knowing it would mean my death without any actual results? Probably not. (I am saying all this in full agreement with you. Germans who knew are not blameless, but it's not like they could've realistically done anything about it. And yet many did, a lot of Germans worked to oppose Hitler and his goons to their deaths, all the way through the war. I have a ton of respect for them, just like I do for anyone who dares to oppose their tyrannical governments. On kind of a similar note I'd recommend Sam Kean's "Bastard Brigade", which doesn't deal with concentration camps, but rather the efforts by scientists both in the West and within Nazi Europe to sabotage the Nazis' efforts to obtain nuclear weapons. Some of these stories are loving wild.) Also, the West knew. We know for a fact that reports started going out by the latest in mid-1941 in the form of reports from spies, captured German communications etc. By early 1942 the Western leaders knew that a campaign of total and industrial annihilation was being waged by the Nazis on Jewish prisoners and other minorities. Again, not to say this in any kind of "so it's the fault of the Western leadership for not stopping it sooner" sense. Could they have done more? Quite probably. But an invasion of Europe probably wouldn't have succeeded a lot quicker under any circumstances. Like many things in history, it's not something that has a clear cut right and wrong answer, and a lot of room for debate and nuance. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 09:46
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Also, the West knew
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Apr 15, 2024 14:18
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Though to be fair, even if the military as a whole knew it doesn't mean that the rank and file did. Heck, even if they knew theoretically it'd still be a shocking site.
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Apr 15, 2024 14:20
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Anyone who wants to blame every German (a natural and understandable sentiment) for the Holocaust should be very careful about where that leads. The US government has and continues to support multiple massive campaigns of violence that could easily be construed as genocide. There are many famous stories of Jewish and other Nazi victims trying to escape to the US and other Western nations and being turned away. In many ways that's just as monstrous as what the Nazis did.
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Apr 15, 2024 14:24
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plus intellectual knowledge is nothing compared to actually witnessing it - even if you just know conceptually, you won’t care half as much as if you’re there, and less still if you haven’t been affected at all. out of sight, out of mind and in many ways, out of true comprehension.
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Apr 15, 2024 14:50
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Again, not to say this in any kind of "so it's the fault of the Western leadership for not stopping it sooner" sense. Could they have done more? Quite probably. But an invasion of Europe probably wouldn't have succeeded a lot quicker under any circumstances. Like many things in history, it's not something that has a clear cut right and wrong answer, and a lot of room for debate and nuance. I know people love to act like modern western nations are exactly the same as Nazi Germany due to cameras being everywhere and NSA bullshit, but it really isn't. Its impossible for someone living in this day and age to understand what living in an actual Fascist Police state is actually like despite all the hyperbolic talk. Yea you go to a protest and you might get arrested, but you'll probably let go after a few hours and some judge will toss out the charges unless there's actual evidence you hit a cop with a brick. If you even thought about saying something negative about the regime or say something "defeatist" and the wrong person heard you, that was it. You and probably you're entire family where just gone, vanished in shadows and fog. If you were lucky maybe just the person that said the thing was the one that was vanished. But yea, you had to watch every single thing you said to make sure that some bootlicker in your workplace or school or at the grocer or just in the park isn't listening. The Gestapo had ears everywhere, not because there were agents everywhere, but they had the entire population of Nazi Germany so scared of being taken away, they turned everyone into an snitch. If you ratted out your neighbour, they might not think you could be a target. And above, a lot of people ask "Why didn't they bomb the camps?" and you then need to tell them about the accuracy of WW2 bombing, even low level. Oh yea, lets free the prisoners and Dachau by dropping bombs on the camp, we won't hit any prisoners! The best way to end the holocaust was to destroy Nazi Germany, which is what they did.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:15
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And in reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest The protests, which occurred over the course of seven days, continued until the men being held were released by the Gestapo. The protest by the women of the Rosenstrasse led to the release of approximately 1,800 Berlin Jews. Despite his promise to Hitler, Goebbels did not try to deport the men of the Rosenstrasse to Auschwitz again, saying the risk of protest was too great The protests on Rosenstrasse were the only time in which a protest against the "Final Solution" in Nazi Germany had occurred against the regime.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:57
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Also, there were a lot of BS stories about German atrocities in WWI (babies on helmet spikes lol) so that probably added to skepticism.
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Apr 15, 2024 19:45
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Doktor Avalanche posted:And in reality: Yet if you read the whole article it was clear that there were very special circumstances here. It allowed the regime to do poo poo that it wanted to do anyway. Citing this as an example "oh if they had just protested even a little it would've solved it". I think it would've helped, especially in the early days, but it is a bit overblown here when you look at the details of what happened.
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Apr 15, 2024 20:17
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McNally posted:The German populace was far more complicit in the war crimes of the Nazi government than popularly believed. i guess this is kind of where my question came from. Like even if he was opposed to what was going on it doesn't seem like franz bakenbauer could actually much about it that isn't like.... try and poison some local nazis, which might work once and hopefully wouldn't result in the death of everyone in his family? ilmucche fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 21:42
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When the Americans rolled in, literally anyone in town could have said "there is a death camp over there. Maybe you can catch them if you hurry." But everyone just acted like they were in a regular town where nothing bad happened.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:42
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Except for whoever ran from town to tip off the camp guards that the Americans were coming. gently caress that person in particular.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:47
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Yeah, I agree with all of this. quote:And above, a lot of people ask "Why didn't they bomb the camps?" and you then need to tell them about the accuracy of WW2 bombing, even low level. Oh yea, lets free the prisoners and Dachau by dropping bombs on the camp, we won't hit any prisoners! The best way to end the holocaust was to destroy Nazi Germany, which is what they did. Yeah, it's a complicated topic. The idea of bombing the camps was floated early on, but was largely turned down for a variety of reasons. Allied leadership maintained that bombers couldn't fly to the camps (which is bullshit, because they frequently bombed industrial sites very close to the camps, and in fact once accidentally bombed Auschwitz during a raid on one of those sites as bombs fell short and demolished the SS barracks at the camp), and while some bomber command staff explored the possibility, it was never given a green light. It was considered unrealistic, because (as you point out) strategic bombing wasn't accurate enough to damage the camps without killing the prisoners, and the distance was extreme for smaller aircraft. Additionally, as the larger camps were located close to industrial sites, they were heavily protected by AA, and ultimately (rightly or wrongly) bomber command leadership figured the small delays inflicted by for instance bombing the railroads wasn't worth the effort when resources were so limited. Opinions on the issue were also divided. I remember reading in some book once that some Jewish (or possibly Polish in exile?) leadership was in favour of bombing the camps to the ground, fully well aware of it meaning the deaths of most if not all prisoners, with the idea being that even if they died, they would die quickly instead of being slowly tortured to death by Nazis. And of course the raids would also kill the Nazis, as well as slow down the Holocaust while the camps were rebuilt. Other Jewish leaders at the time opposed the idea, knowing full well that it would mean the deaths of all the Jewish prisoners held at the death camps, and also play into the Nazis' hands. And as for who knew and when, by December 1942 the Holocaust was public knowledge in the West. The governments knew earlier, but suppressed publication of the reports, but in December 1942 the State Department released a report saying two million Jewish civilians had been murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust, and news of the death camps quickly spread. Every Allied soldier would've known about the camps years before they liberated them, but as was pointed out earlier in the thread, knowing is different from seeing the victims and the horror for yourself.
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Apr 16, 2024 08:36
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kiminewt posted:Yet if you read the whole article it was clear that there were very special circumstances here. It allowed the regime to do poo poo that it wanted to do anyway. Citing this as an example "oh if they had just protested even a little it would've solved it". Anyone claiming BUT IF THEY'D ONLY PROTESTED is disingenuous or ignorant as gently caress, because this is what usually happened to protesters in Nazi Germany: quote:The White Rose (German: Weiße Rose, pronounced [ˈvaɪ̯sə ˈʁoːzə] ⓘ) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany which was led by five students and one professor at the University of Munich: Willi Graf, Kurt Huber, Christoph Probst, Alexander Schmorell, Hans Scholl and Sophie Scholl. The group conducted an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign that called for active opposition to the Nazi regime. Their activities started in Munich on 27 June 1942; they ended with the arrest of the core group by the Gestapo on 18 February 1943.[1] They, as well as other members and supporters of the group who carried on distributing the pamphlets, faced show trials by the Nazi People's Court (Volksgerichtshof); many of them were imprisoned and executed. If anyone is interested in the topic, I'd recommend the game Through the Darkest of Times which is kind of a life simulation set in Germany during the rise of the Nazis. You operate a small resistance cell, and it's a pretty good (and well researched) primer on the atmosphere in Germany at the time, and the dangers even non-violent protesters and dissidents faced. It's also extremely depressing, for obvious reasons. And this isn't to say that every German or even most Germans opposed the Nazis. Many obviously agreed with them, many more didn't care as long as it didn't affect them personally(*). But instead of saying "why not more", I think it's valuable to understand the hosed up oppression even Germans were under at the time, and appreciate the people who did risk their lives. * and hell, not just in Germany. Nazis had a lot of sympathizers throughout Europe and the world. On a topic very related to this thread, for instance Switzerland was actually anything but neutral. The Masters of the Air book describes Allied bomber crews trying to land in "neutral" Switzerland, only to get shot down (or shot up) by Swiss fighters, or if they succeeded in landing, getting violently beaten up by Swiss soldiers and police, many of whom were either Nazi sympathizers or outright Nazis themselves. And then sent to prison camps where conditions were so poor they would've made many Nazis think this poo poo was getting a bit out of hand. Shaman Tank Spec fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 08:38
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kiminewt posted:Yet if you read the whole article it was clear that there were very special circumstances here. It allowed the regime to do poo poo that it wanted to do anyway. Citing this as an example "oh if they had just protested even a little it would've solved it". They never once, other than this one single protest, even try to protest against the Nazi government. So don't loving sit here and try to lecture about all the bad things that surely would have happened to them if they had protested. Because they didn't. And the one single time they did, they got everything they protested for with no repercussions. Now think about why they didn't protest. Edit: and lol at using the White Rose as an example excusing the Germans here. Literally the only organised resistance to the Nazis for their entire reign outside of what communists remained after the purges. Again, think about why, outside of the communists, who were the first sent to the camps, there was so little resistance. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 11:14
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Orange Devil posted:They never once, other than this one single protest, even try to protest against the Nazi government. So don't loving sit here and try to lecture about all the bad things that surely would have happened to them if they had protested. Because they didn't. And the one single time they did, they got everything they protested for with no repercussions. Just so I understand, you're saying that the people who organised resistance to the Nazis were the first to get sent to the camps, but there was no reason for anyone to expect consequences if they organised resistance to the nazis
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Apr 16, 2024 12:04
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communists weren't sent to the camps for "organizing resistance to the nazis", they were sent to the camps because they were communists comparing the white rose, a "non-violent intellectual resistance group", to hundreds of regular people coming out to protest in public every day is a joke edit: all of this wheedling denial is just whitewashing that has been encouraged since the end of ww2 because the west needed west germany on their side so history got written to absolve them a little bit same deal with the US letting wehrmacht write their history books and lunatic canadians doing the same with the SS Doktor Avalanche fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 12:16
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Communists were sent to the camps in 1933 for being communist. By Christmas 1933 most were released. Some went into exile to the Soviet Union, others became part of organized resistance after the invasion of the Soviet Union. By 1935 there were fewer than 5.000 prisoners in what few camps even remained until Himmler called for a war on internal enemies, which meant communists, socialists, Jews, freemasons and criminals. To understand Nazi antisemitism it is very important to understand that in the Nazi worldview, communism and Jews were the same thing. Hence terms like Judeo-bolshevism. And the Nazis, being a reactionary movement, born literally out of the reaction to communist revolution in Germany in 1918 and 1919, were virulently anti-communist. This is what fascism being liberalism in distress means. Anyway, Himmler got approval to start his SS camps, and that started the system that is most remembered nowadays. The largest contingent of people arrested by far during this time were the homeless, the mentally ill, the unemployed and petty thieves. Jews arrested for being Jews started making up a significant portion after Kristallnacht in 1938. The people arrested weren't arrested, by and large, for actions opposing the Nazis, but for who they were. Germans protested against none of these groups being rounded up and arrested.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:35
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One group not mentioned yet is Jehovah's Witnesses, who were identified with a purple triangle. They were put in because they refused to join the Nazi party or to fight. They were the one group that could have left the camps by simply signing a paper saying that they renounce their religion.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:20
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masters of the air: the show where we talk about the holocaust on the ground
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Apr 16, 2024 20:27
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Eau de MacGowan posted:masters of the air: the show where we talk about the holocaust on the ground Hey they showed it in the last episode.
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Apr 16, 2024 20:30
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Why on earth would you guys talk about the Holocaust in a thread about a world war II show? Absolutely incredible.
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Apr 16, 2024 21:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIU53fCFKI
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Apr 17, 2024 00:03
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