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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, they explicitly went out of their way to separate the two and the statement was in response to being shown a video where people were literally chanting in support of terrorism and they were asked about it.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, they explicitly went out of their way to separate the two and the statement was in response to being shown a video where people were literally chanting in support of terrorism and they were asked about it. I think you’re proving Willa right when she referenced the “I’m not touching you” game. As I said earlier, the post-9/11 White House does not use the word “terrorist” when they do not want to slime someone. You are giving them the benefit of the doubt where they do not deserve it. TheDeadlyShoe posted:being as AOC was at the same event and is widely reported as praising the 'peaceful student-led protests', they're doing an incredible bad job of it. Is AOC part of the administration now? I must have missed that.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:23
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it is probably a bad idea to engage in hyperbolic statements like "biden called the protesters terrorists" that aren't true because it kind of blows out the dynamic range that differentiates how to process what they actually said versus if they had actually just put biden on stage and had him say "the student protesters are terrorists" (in which case the response and consequences outside of this bubble of rhetoric would have been way, way loving different) this sort of poo poo ultimately only helps the people who are actually saying poo poo which is as bad as that, non-hyperbolically, like the guy from the ADL being all like 'the student protesters are iranian proxy groups' because now statements of very different concern are now treated essentially identically, for reasons not worth spending another two pages on but hopefully people got an idea why
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Apr 25, 2024 19:24
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Majorian posted:I think you’re proving Willa right when she referenced the “I’m not touching you” game. As I said earlier, the post-9/11 White House does not use the word “terrorist” when they do not want to slime someone. You are giving them the benefit of the doubt where they do not deserve it. The video they responded to explicitly mentions supporting terrorist groups. https://twitter.com/AntisemitismEye/status/1782431134808158245
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Apr 25, 2024 19:26
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The video they responded to explicitly mentions supporting terrorist groups. So the WH is accepting the framing of a noted pro-Zionist group, which dishonestly conflates what a handful of nutballs that are not part of the student protests and were not on campus. I’m not seeing that as much better.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:32
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Majorian posted:So the WH is accepting the framing of a noted pro-Zionist group, which conflates what a handful of nutballs that are not part of the student protests and were not on campus. I’m not seeing that as much better. Please examine why you have initially believed factually incorrect things and then walked back your initial claims three times when a single google search or reading the BBC article posted could have informed you.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:34
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Its worth noting that the more extremist elements are probably the PSL loons who have a track record of this stuff or so says the GBS thread
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Apr 25, 2024 19:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Please examine why you have initially believed factually incorrect things and then walked back your initial claims three times when a single google search or reading the BBC article posted could have informed you. My initial claim is that the WH is deliberately trying to associate the peaceful protests with the word “terrorist”: Majorian posted:“Terrorist” is an extremely loaded term in the US; it’s especially so when the White House uses it, given the past three decades of history. It is a handy cudgel when an administration wants to slime an individual or group, often unfairly or hypocritically. It’s similar to how “Communist” was used as an epithet during the Cold War (and still is, of course). I don’t buy the suggestion that they weren’t trying to deliberately malign protesters by making this association. I have not walked back that claim and still stand by it. I think you have me confused with another poster.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:40
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I think the actual anti-Semitic elements of a protest should be called out and shunned while the genuine support for Palestinian protests should be encouraged. Not pointing out the more poo poo elements of a movement is how you get Nazis marching down the street included in your movement. And at the risk of being too controversial, I don't like Nazis.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:41
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National Parks posted:Oh cool let's bring back the "do you condemn hamas" before you can talk about the rights of Palestinians or students ability to protest or about how Israel is commiting a genocide I don’t think we should simplify and decontextualize an extremely complicated situation to being about our own internal electoralism. Our inertial rhetorical games (on all sides) don’t help anything.
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Apr 25, 2024 19:43
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Majorian posted:My initial claim is that the WH is deliberately trying to associate the peaceful protests with the word “terrorist”: You initially said he directly called peaceful "anti-genocide protestors" terrorists/terrorist apologists/dupes, then said it was unprompted and they would only use that word if they intended to do so, then explained that you didn't know about the video or context. Majorian posted:I broadly agree, but we’re talking about how the WH is characterizing the anti-genocide protesters, ie: as terrorist apologists/supporters/dupes. I don’t think one can credibly “both sides” that. You can believe whatever you want, but some statements of fact are binary in whether they happened or not. Your initial belief could still be right even though your initial factual assumptions were incorrect, but you should make sure you ground your belief in factual statements. It doesn't do you any good to trick yourself. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Apr 25, 2024 |
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Apr 25, 2024 19:47
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Majorian posted:Some were, but there was a large amount of indirect accusations, innuendo, and bad faith character attacks as well. Thanks for the correction. 
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Apr 25, 2024 19:52
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Push El Burrito posted:I think the actual anti-Semitic elements of a protest should be called out and shunned while the genuine support for Palestinian protests should be encouraged. agreed in part, but based off my experiences with specific subjects it becomes nearly impossible to expect these mass protest movements to be able to avoid the fringe dumbshits coming in and saying the crazy rear end in a top hat poo poo some or maybe even most of responsibility should be on the media for their tendency to reward all their attention to whichever .0002% ideological fringe group comes in and says the most attention catching cringe poo poo, then intentionally leave the burden on the vast majority of peace demonstrators to constantly be accountable to it, forced to waste their time disavowing a handful of assholes Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Its worth noting that the more extremist elements are probably the PSL loons who have a track record of this stuff that would track lol
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Apr 25, 2024 19:52
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I don’t think we should simplify and decontextualize an extremely complicated situation to being about our own internal electoralism. You're the one who tried to make a both sides argument in the middle of a discussion about protestors and the Gaza encampments. Which ill add, are completely unrelated to Hamas, but very related to the genocide in gaza and divestment from Israel. Maybe take your own advice?
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Apr 25, 2024 19:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Please examine why you have initially believed factually incorrect things and then walked back your initial claims three times when a single google search or reading the BBC article posted could have informed you. So I got curious about this and did a search for "white house terrorist" on google and clicked to the news sections. The first few stories are about other things but here are the media headlines:  They don't seem to actually mention terrorism or terrorist at all despite being part of the actual literal statement. The media has mostly seized upon the "anti-semitic" and "dangerous" parts. Notably they've also managed to flatten the claims of "antisemitism at the protests" to "antisemitic protests", going by the TheDailyBeast's headline. So I think it's fair to say that "[noun] at the protest" will be framed by some of the Respectable Liberal media as "[adjective] protests".
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Apr 25, 2024 19:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You initially said he directly called peaceful "anti-genocide protestors" terrorists/terrorist apologists/dupes, I said the White House characterized them as such, as you can see in the snippet you quoted. That's not the same thing as accusing them of "directly calling" them that. As I said, they are attempting to associate the protests with terrorism. It's the "I'm not touching you" game that Willa referenced. They don't have to directly call them terrorists to make that association in their audience's mind. Also, please stop the backseat modding. There's no call for that. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 25, 2024 |
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Apr 25, 2024 19:55
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Majorian posted:I said the White House characterized them as such, as you can see in the snippet you quoted. That's not the same thing as accusing them of "directly calling" them that. As I said, they are attempting to associate the protests with terrorism. They did not characterize them that way. They explicitly drew a distinction in the original statement about peaceful protesting and noted the actions in the video were distinct from the protestors. That is the entire the point of the context, the link, the video, and the BBC article. It doesn't really make sense to trick yourself. You can still believe that the goal was to smear them, but just make sure you are in the realm of the factual.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They did not characterize them that way. They explicitly drew a distinction in the original statement about peaceful protesting and noted the actions in the video were distinct from the protestors. That is the entire the point of the context, the link, the video, and the BBC article. I'm not "tricking myself" in the slightest; I think I'm being clear-eyed about the White House's use of language here. It's not the first time they've tried to associate these protests with malign forces like antisemitism, and I'm sure it won't be the last. You're free to disagree with me, of course. But I think the use of the word "terrorist" was strategically deployed, much in the way that pretty much every other president since 9/11 has used that term to slime movements that they don't like.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:08
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National Parks posted:You're the one who tried to make a both sides argument in the middle of a discussion about protestors and the Gaza encampments. Which ill add, are completely unrelated to Hamas, but very related to the genocide in gaza and divestment from Israel. Maybe take your own advice? No, all I’m doing is say it is consistent with reality to consider both Hamas a terrorist organization and Israel a state that is perpetuating a genocide. We don’t have buy into the framing of either. They are both awful, though I would say Israel is currently more awful.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:17
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No, all I’m doing is say it is consistent with reality to consider both Hamas a terrorist organization and Israel a state that is perpetuating a genocide. Israeli civil institutions are oftentimes the outgrowth of militia or terrorist organizations like Irgun, so Hamas has a bright, politically viable future according to the standards of the region. Menachem Begin walked so others could run (into the voting booth after they win their liberation)
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Apr 25, 2024 20:21
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Yeah this one seems way more the media's very specific bias and bad editorialization
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Apr 25, 2024 20:25
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Barrel Cactaur posted:Yeah this one seems way more the media's very specific bias and bad editorialization That's just shifting the blame though. The White House has entire staff whose jobs are to come up with statements, properly frame them, and then disseminate them to the media. Like, that TheDailyBeast headline I noted above was from a statement that was emailed directly to them. Are we to believe that the White House staff whose job is to give statements to the media are unaware of how the media will frame them? Once again an argument boils down to evil vs. stupid.
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Apr 25, 2024 20:27
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koolkal posted:That's just shifting the blame though. The White House has entire staff whose jobs are to come up with statements, properly frame them, and then disseminate them to the media. Like, that TheDailyBeast headline I noted above was from a statement that was emailed directly to them. I don't see why we have to consider this case when it's pretty clear the administration isn't backing the Palestinians as much as we would all like - this is like saying dems are bad for intentionally kicking a puppy after they bumped into a puppy on the way to kill a man. Like of course they won't come out in support of the protestors, why would you fixate on improper use of language instead of what they're doing unless there's some sort of imaginary grievance pile you're trying to get as high as possible?
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Apr 25, 2024 20:52
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WarpedLichen posted:I don't see why we have to consider this case when it's pretty clear the administration isn't backing the Palestinians as much as we would all like - this is like saying dems are bad for intentionally kicking a puppy after they bumped into a puppy on the way to kill a man. Because it's part of a pretty clear pattern from this administration. Back in October, White House spokesperson Karine Jean-Pierre made a not-so-subtle comparison between anti-genocide protesters and the Charlottesville white supremacists: (bolding mine) quote:Q Thank you, Karine. Does President Biden think the anti-Israel protesters in this country are extremists? This isn't an issue of them not coming out in support of protesters "as much as we'd like." (which I don't think anyone here expects of this administration anyway) It's an issue of how they've been framing these protests since just after October 7.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:19
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Majorian posted:This isn't an issue of them not coming out in support of protesters "as much as we'd like." (which I don't think anyone here expects of this administration anyway) It's an issue of how they've been framing these protests since just after October 7. This just feels like the right wing outrage machine tuned to a different frequency. If you want to believe that off the cuff responses to a reporter are elements of a deliberate smear campaign, you do you. For the record: Majorian posted:Let’s put our cards on the table on this issue: do you think that the WH intended to associate the protests with terrorist groups by deploying the term “terrorist” or not? My point here is that the answer to this question is basically a Rorschach test of how evil you think the dems are. It's the same thing as asking if Biden in his heart of hearts actually wants the genocide to happen or if he's just along for the ride. It's basically just a purity test designed to stir poo poo up. So no, I don't think the dems sat down and decided to discredit the protests for PR. Maybe they did, who cares.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:41
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WarpedLichen posted:This just feels like the right wing outrage machine tuned to a different frequency. If you want to believe that off the cuff responses to a reporter are elements of a deliberate smear campaign, you do you. Given that it's part of a far broader pattern of the White House associating the protests with adjectives like "antisemitic" and "terrorist," yeah, I'm going to believe that this was not an off-the-cuff response but rather what this White House actually believes. quote:For the record: I don't believe I've said anything about "the Dems." I have been talking about this Administration, which is Democratic but not synonymous with "the Dems." As I've pointed out, previous Administrations have also used the label "terrorist" to disparage and discredit movements that they feel are threatening to their interests. It's a bipartisan pattern (just as red-baiting was back in the day), not something that I'm claiming is peculiar to the Dems.
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Apr 25, 2024 21:49
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UT had protesters mass arrested yesterday. Well that failed, because the court declined all the cases. What’s worse is the university system trying to destroy evidence that will absolutely be used in upcoming civil suits for students who have had their civil rights infringed under color of law, when the U used to say things like this… https://x.com/ZaidJilani/status/1783583085398819177
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Apr 25, 2024 21:50
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Looking dire here in Boston too. https://x.com/GBHNews/status/1783555575755801010 quote:Boston police officers arrested 108 protesters during an overnight sweep of a pro-Palestinian encampment on the Emerson College campus in Downtown Boston. Both students and police say they were injured during the aggressive clash. Emphasis my own.
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Apr 25, 2024 22:44
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GBH news indeed
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Apr 25, 2024 22:54
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boston police? brutal? inconceivable gently caress, i actually know where this is going, i was looking forward to sitting on my rear end but now those demonstrators gonna need demonstrators against legal cases
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Apr 25, 2024 23:04
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Staluigi posted:boston police? brutal? inconceivable Ime they've been fairly restrained at protests, at least compared to other places so it's actually a little surprising to me. They usually save their brutality for one on one interactions.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:10
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Nucleic Acids posted:Someone already did this (you can go to about 8:40 and hear her describe it, as they pointed out), but there’s still posts being made as if it didn’t happen. yeah it's pretty unfortunate that the thread doesn't move in lockstep at all times but that's the cost of doing business when you're dealing with a myriad of individuals instead of a gestalt
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Apr 25, 2024 23:17
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Kagrenak posted:Ime they've been fairly restrained at protests, at least compared to other places so it's actually a little surprising to me. They usually save their brutality for one on one interactions. They were pretty brutal to counter-protesters at the Straight Pride march back in 2019 but the response this time around does seem even worse.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:17
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If we survive well enough to produce historians that study this period, they're going to reach the conclusion that letting cops nationally have a flag to unite behind was a very bad idea.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:22
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analysis of today's immunity arguments from SCOTUS blog: https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/04/supreme-court-appears-likely-to-side-with-trump-on-some-presidential-immunity/
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Apr 25, 2024 23:23
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Kagrenak posted:Ime they've been fairly restrained at protests, at least compared to other places so it's actually a little surprising to me. They usually save their brutality for one on one interactions. yeah i am forced to admit that their median thuggery level is lacking compared to, like, chicago, portland, albequerque. mass legislators do a lot of big talk on campus freedoms so they're usually not uhhh mobilized fist first like this so i guess this time It's Different!, maybe on account of pressure from israeli state aligned donors or some poo poo that will be drearily dystopian once you have the whole picture but for now i guess its all eyes on the ACLU to see what kind of advocacy they throw out, and how serious the reporting will be from GBH or WBUR
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Apr 25, 2024 23:25
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THE Ohio State University: https://x.com/Liz_Andromeda/status/1783618711137505445 Indiana: https://x.com/IUonStrike/status/1783620195581350102 We were wrong to say we should defund these guys though. This is normal first-world nation stuff, this is how you show the kids what real life is like if they try to protest a genocide.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:39
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Staluigi posted:yeah i am forced to admit that their median thuggery level is lacking compared to, like, chicago, portland, albequerque. mass legislators do a lot of big talk on campus freedoms so they're usually not uhhh mobilized fist first like this Yeah I'm not handing it to them or anything, just here is less bad than I've seen, heard of, or experienced in other cities. I have a friend who writes for WGBH sometimes so I'm sure she'll be trying to push through some actually good reporting but they're not a staff writer so it depends on if the station takes it. selec posted:THE Ohio State University: This is loving insane. I've only ever seen this at protests at the white house which at least feels more proportional.
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Apr 25, 2024 23:58
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Recently, they had police snipers on the roof of Elbit Systems in Cambridge, MA when people were protesting there (Elbit Systems provides drones and other equipment to the Israeli military)
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Apr 26, 2024 01:45
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So in Baltimore a recording had leaked a while back of a principal making racist and antisemitic remarks. Today it came out that after investigating it turned out to be AI generated by the Athletic Director pissed at the principal because he was getting fired. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/baltimore-high-school-athletic-director-ai-create-fake/story%3fid=109638535 Our elections are about to get crazy. Life in general is going to get wild as people abuse this to do things like this as well as people who legit did whatever they are accused of muddying the waters with an "it was AI" defense.
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Apr 26, 2024 01:46
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