|
Gerund posted:There is an argument that if you hold material support for an ongoing genocide to be your primary deciding factor, and effectively must have a binary choice between two supporters of an ongoing genocide, the active choice one should make is to flip a coin in the voting booth and go by that result. I'm not following. If something is your primary factor in a decision, and both options are the same in relation to your primary factor, the normal 'active choice' thing is to fall back to secondary factors, not flip a coin. TheDoublePivot posted:US libs to Palestinians Not like any of the anti-Biden folks in this thread aren't all for sending them the same exact message so long as its in service to seeing the US suffer. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 17, 2024 |
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 16:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 09:36 |
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:US libs to Palestinians Don't forget the entirety of the Republican Party, or do they not have any agency and only liberals can make things happen/not happen?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 16:55
|
|
|
The Mattybee posted:This is not the first time this has come up and every single time people put together a litany of quotes from Trump about supporting Israel just killing all of them, it goes unaddressed or handwaved away with "Well that's just Trump saying things he just says whatever". Yeah because it's not about Trump it's about starting another stupid slapfight.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:01
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Not like any of the anti-Biden folks in this thread aren't all for sending them the same exact message. I’m willing to believe that some people just prefer to not see their nation being complicit in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. volts5000 posted:Don't forget the entirety of the Republican Party, or do they not have any agency and only liberals can make things happen/not happen? Im not seeing a denial here!
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:07
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:So people should ignore their concerns over the actual genocide, happening right now, because of what you predict will happen in the future? tell me what the last presidential election was that wasn't based off predicting what will happen in the future
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:08
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:I’m willing to believe that some people just prefer to not see their nation being complicit in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. This is exactly my point, you realize that, right? Rhetorically, they seem prefectly willing to sacrifice any number of Palestinian lives as long as it means they personally can say they weren't complicit with it. How else could you explain them arguing in favour of a person being elected who has given every indication he would support more of them dying? That aside: Literally every politician I'm aware of who is doing anything to oppose the Palistinian genocide is a Democrat (or an independent who still works closely with them), arguing they should be weakened so we can feel better about the bad thing happening because hey, at least its not our fault, is some reprehensible poo poo, on a moral level. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Apr 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:10
|
|
|
This is exciting, y'all, I think we're gonna finally solve IP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:This is exactly my point, you realize that, right? Rhetorically, they seem prefectly willing to sacrifice any number of Palestinian lives as long as it means they personally can say they weren't complicit with it. It's like that quote from Peacemaker, "I cherish peace with all my heart. I don't care how many men, women, and children I need to kill to get it."
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:This is exactly my point, you realize that, right? Rhetorically, they seem prefectly willing to sacrifice any number of Palestinian lives as long as it means they personally can say they weren't complicit with it. I don’t think that’s exactly your point at all, I said nothing about personal complicity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:Maybe it's better if trump actually tears the system down We've heard this argument back in 2016 from people who didn't want to vote for Clinton. What did we get? - unmitigated corruption - Trump matching Obama's drone strikes in his first two years in office (while Biden's don't even register on the chart) - the stupidest Covid response in the world, complete with a President calling Covid a hoax - a conservative Supreme Court for the next several decades - end of Roe - a Republican party that spreads crazy conspiracies about literally everything - slipping in the democracy index - the death of Soleimani, which Iran said was the reason for the October 7 attack and everything that's happening in Gaza - ripping up the Iran nuclear deal - withholding of aid to Palestine - egging on the settlers and recognizing the Golan Heights - betraying the Kurds - withholding of aid to Ukraine if Zelensky didn't do Trump a solid - leaving the Paris agreement (while Biden passed the biggest climate legislation in US and possibly world history) - the attempt to kick tens of millions of people off their healthcare that a Democrat provided - an attempted coup - constant threats of Constitutional crises - a President Biden, not Bernie - too many other dumb Republican policies and events to name But sure, let's try this again. small butter fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Apr 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
mutata posted:This is exciting, y'all, I think we're gonna finally solve IP. I thought you were talking about intellectual property and I got excited.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:19
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:I don’t think that’s exactly your point at all, I said nothing about personal complicity. Replace it with complicity-by-proxy in my response as well then, if thats what you want, then, it's not meaningfully different in any way I can determine except describing it as personal complicity would be more honest and probably a little less grossly immoral as a result, if they're seriously arguing a Trump-led US would be less complicit. Jesus III posted:I thought you were talking about intellectual property and I got excited. We already solved that IP and it turns out it's a corporate boot stomping on all our faces forever. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:20
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:Maybe it's better if trump actually tears the system down and we can try again if the lesser evil gives a country free healthcare and pays for a genocide with our tax dollars. Trump "tearing down the system" is exactly what they want to do! Especially Steve Bannon and everyone behind Trump. And they want to install a Theocratic fascist dictatorship and HAVE SAID THIS OUT LOUD. Geeze, lets give a bunch of end times theocrats and literal Hitler lovers power in a government they will make non representative and give them control of the most powerful military on earth. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:24
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Replace it with complicity-by-proxy in my response as well then, if thats what you want, then, it's not meaningfully different in any way I can determine except describing it as personal complicity would be more honest and probably a little less grossly immoral as a result, if they're seriously arguing a Trump-led US would be less complicit. You are arguing with positions you imagine me to have, whether out of a guilty conscience or not it is hard to say.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:29
|
|
|
Kalli posted:The argument of "no matter which side you pick the genocide will continue" just seems like a post-accelerationist argument to me, or at the very least, the staunchest defense of republican voters I think I've seen on this forum. The genocide will continue no matter which side you pick, because Israel is not subject to US political parties and does not need US military or financial aid to continue the genocide, and I'm pretty sure the number of US major-party politicians advocating for a military intervention against Israel to protect the Palestinians is a big fat zero. America has been bipartisanly supporting this specific genocide for more than a half-century. Until just a few years ago, loudly and publicly supporting Israel - and its genocide of the Palestinians - was widely seen as practically a necessity for political success in both parties. If you have ever voted for a president or Congressional candidate, then you've almost certainly voted for someone who was actively supporting the Israeli genocide of Palestine. The speed of the shift in public support over the past few months has been breathtaking, but unfortunately, it takes time for shifts in public opinion to change US government policy, since our political system is by nature somewhat slow to respond to change. There's simply no way in hell that US policy will change quickly enough and drastically enough to actually put an end to the Israeli genocide of Palestine before Israel gets tired of bombing Gaza and declares a unilateral ceasefire. It's not just the presidency that matters here, either. How about Congress? Where's the pro-Palestinian equivalents of the bipartisan Congressional Israel Allies Caucus? Where's the pro-Palestinian equivalents of the Congressional Israeli Victory Caucus, founded by Republicans who thought that the Israel Allies Caucus was too left-wing and not pro-Israel enough? Historically, Congress has been even more pro-Israel than the presidency has! Although it often comes up that US attempts to negotiate Israel/Palestine peace were frequently hampered by the blatant pro-Israel biases of every single administration that tried, it's worth remembering that Congress has passed many openly pro-Israel laws, such as several laws requiring the government to deny any arms sales that might threaten Israel's "qualitative military edge" over its neighbors. And let's not forget the Jerusalem Embassy Act, whose implementation was stonewalled by three presidents in a row before Trump finally allowed it to go into effect, more than twenty years after it was originally passed. If we see a big wave of pro-Palestinian legislators elected in 2024, that'll have a much bigger impact on our support for the Israeli genocide. It will impact it directly, by reducing legislative support for pro-Israel policies and increasing legislative support for stopping pro-Israel policies. It will also impact it indirectly by showing that there's broad national support for Palestine, and that this broad national support is willing to come out and vote, which becomes a clear message for the president to change his stance before 2028. Of course, it's already too late for new pro-Palestine candidates to reasonably sign up for 2024 and have a real chance at winning. That goes back to what I said before about our political system being somewhat slow to respond to change. That's what happens when the American populace across the entire political spectrum enthusiastically supports genocide for decades, and spends an entire generation consistently voting in pro-Israel candidates - it takes more than a couple months to stop that inertia! However, to go back to the start, remember that Israel is entirely capable of carrying out the Palestinian genocide without American help.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:29
|
|
|
edit: not worth the effort
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:31
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:You are arguing with positions you imagine me to have, whether out of a guilty conscience or not it is hard to say. I can only argue with the points you're actually making to the extent I can decipher them, not whatever you believe to be the case inside your head, and as far as I can tell your argument was that they want to reduce their sense of complicity. If there's something I misunderstood, could you try to rephrase your argument in a more clear way?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:34
|
|
|
The Ohio state attorney general has rejected provisional certification for Biden's nomination in order to have him on the ballot in November:quote:Republican Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost has rejected a Democratic proposal meant to get around a legal technicality that could prevent President Joe Biden from appearing on the ballot here this November. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ohio-ag-yost-shoots-down-democrats-proposed-fix-to-get-biden-on-the-ohio-ballot/ar-BB1lJE93 I'm guessing that the DNC will support a "mini-convention" to technically nominate Biden, probably virtually, or make some sort of rules change that allows them to certify Biden as the nominee in order to meet the deadline. As I've said, I believe that Biden being precluded from the ballot would damage Sherrod Brown's chances for reelection.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:34
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:
I largely agree with your post but don't know that this is true, logistically. They don't need our economic support to do it if they care enough to eat the extra cost, probably. However, the US government has the power to stop arms sales and if we took that step it's likely that France and Germany wouldn't be far behind. Israel makes some arms domestically, especially 155mm shells and some missiles but from what I've been able to find, they don't have that big of a domestic ordinance manufacturing industry compared to the amount of design that occurs there. Limiting their ability to import weapons I think would dramatically change their ability to continue the persecution of the genocide in its current shape and would require a shift to much more costly ground tactics.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:38
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:I can only argue with the points you're actually making to the extent I can decipher them, not whatever you believe to be the case inside your head, and as far as I can tell your argument was that they want to reduce their sense of complicity. If there's something I misunderstood, could you try to rephrase your argument in a more clear way? My original point, if you can even call it that, was a quick reply to a shrek image macro where I stated that a certain demographic was comfortable with the slaughter. You then joined in, after all a hit dog will holler, and your claims have been becoming stranger.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:44
|
|
|
Riptor posted:tell me what the last presidential election was that wasn't based off predicting what will happen in the future While it's somewhat tangential to the question, this is the first election since 1892 where we can definitely know what both leading candidates have done as Presidents, and therefore what they are reasonably likely to continue to do if elected again. (And in 1912 that was true for 2 of the 3 leading candidates.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:46
|
|
|
TheDoublePivot posted:My original point, if you can even call it that, was a quick reply to a shrek image macro where I stated that a certain demographic was comfortable with the slaughter. You then joined in, after all a hit dog will holler, and your claims have been becoming stranger. Then why were you talking about the response to your second point, then? The one you made in the post I actually, y'know, quoted, before the response. If you're not gonna make any actual points and we're just gonna run off assumptions and insinuations like "a hit dog will holler", I'm happy to conclude the conversation in the belief that you yourself are comfortable with the slaughter, I guess? I was hoping we could manage a bit better than that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 17:54
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Then why were you talking about the response to your second point, then? The one you made in the post I actually, y'know, quoted, before the response. What, my contention that some people you characterise as anti-Biden might genuinely wish for the slaughter to stop and not just a means to undermine America as you seem to think? Yeah I’ll stand by that. You are free to entertain whatever misguided beliefs about me you wish.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:02
|
|
|
Eh, seems pretty unlikely for any of the ones posting in this thread at least.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:06
|
|
|
Queering Wheel posted:This is literally where I'm at lol. Enjoy the treats and bread and circuses and loved ones for as long as you can. The world is and will remain a brutal place for a lot of people, and if you are not one of those people, be grateful and appreciate what you have. I think it's worth acknowledging that this is not a point we've *arrived* at, the world has always been like this (aside from advances in technology for killing people faster). The main thing that has changed, as it relates to this discourse, is that many people have been directly plugged directly into the firehose of information about all the bad poo poo going on everywhere for long enough that they have reached a point where they can't really handle it any more. I'm not trying to tell anyone they should 'unplug', to be clear, just pointing it out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:08
|
|
|
Kagrenak posted:I largely agree with your post but don't know that this is true, logistically. They don't need our economic support to do it if they care enough to eat the extra cost, probably. However, the US government has the power to stop arms sales and if we took that step it's likely that France and Germany wouldn't be far behind. Israel makes some arms domestically, especially 155mm shells and some missiles but from what I've been able to find, they don't have that big of a domestic ordinance manufacturing industry compared to the amount of design that occurs there. Limiting their ability to import weapons I think would dramatically change their ability to continue the persecution of the genocide in its current shape and would require a shift to much more costly ground tactics. Israel is actually a major arms exporter. One of the top 10 biggest arms exporters in the entire world, in fact (they usually hover between #7 and #10, depending on who's measuring, what metric they're measuring, and what year it is). Moreover, their arms export market has been growing substantially in the past few years, as Russia's invasion of Ukraine has opened up new demand in Eastern Europe and normalizing relations with Arab countries has opened up new markets in the Middle East and Africa. Many of their exports are high-tech stuff like radars and electronic warfare equipment, sure, but missiles and rockets make up roughly 20% of their exports and UAVs make up 25%. So Israel does have a fair amount of excess capacity for manufacturing this stuff themselves if they need to, though at a cost (which they can afford, if they really want to).
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:11
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:Maybe it's better if trump actually tears the system down At what point does anything on his record qualify as tearing "the system" (or at least the parts of it you don't like) down? Trump has maybe torn up some mores, but I don't see how he has torn up "The System."
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:13
|
|
|
Eric Cantonese posted:At what point does anything on his record qualify as tearing "the system" (or at least the parts of it you don't like) down? Trump has maybe torn up some mores, but I don't see how he has torn up "The System." It's a lot like the second generation of the "Reagan promises to curb the power of big government" when it turns out to be like the Simpsons bit where it's "Oh, I just mean its power to help you, not to hurt you."
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
Yeah it's probably more likely that Republicans under another Trump term would just tip the scales of election fuckery to the point that we'd have one party rule for a good while, than that he'd trigger some apocalypse scenario where 'everything falls apart ' including, for example, the comforts of living for wealthy white liberals. But I don't think Nail Rat actually expects that, I think they're just saying some equivalent of 'gently caress everything, it's all hosed'
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:23
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:So Israel does have a fair amount of excess capacity for manufacturing this stuff themselves if they need to, though at a cost (which they can afford, if they really want to). And many of the things they manufacture are used in our systems. My understanding is previous Republican administrations really let them get integrated into our defense supply chains.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:33
|
|
|
Double good news: Looks like Ukraine aid is going to pass and it's going to mean another speakership crisis for the House GOP. https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1780649330048684114
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:45
|
|
|
small butter posted:We've heard this argument back in 2016 from people who didn't want to vote for Clinton. What did we get? Voting for genocide because you believe its the lesser-evil just means you are a Nazi who believes in pragmatism. A system which forces you to support the mass murder of civilians and children as the best possible outcome is a system that should not exist. socialsecurity posted:"Tearing down the system and trying again" will lead to way more than 1.1 Million dead kids, this sounds incredibly callous to human life in general. How many other genocidal governments have had the argument made that "We can't dismantle the regime, too many people will be hurt in the process."? None, and with good reason. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:48
|
|
|
"First they came for the Gazans, and I voted for that poo poo because the other guy was worse and anyway, I bet the fascists will stop at eliminating one group." -Martin Niemoller if he was around today, probably.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:51
|
|
|
Neat Bee posted:Voting for genocide because you believe its the lesser-evil just means you are a Nazi who believes in pragmatism. No one here has argued in favour of "voting for genocide" more than you have by any metric I can identify.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:55
|
|
|
zoux posted:Double good news: Looks like Ukraine aid is going to pass and it's going to mean another speakership crisis for the House GOP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:55
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:No one here has argued in favour of "voting for genocide" more than you have by any metric I can identify. I'm asking this in good faith, because I am interested to know your perspective. If someone asks you "how is Biden actively shipping weapons to Israel during a genocide NOT supporting genocide?" what is your response? Do you challenge the assertion the Joe Biden has gone out of his way to ship these weapons? Or do you argue that shipping weapons to a regime actively engaging in genocide isn't supporting genocide? Because it seems like you'd have to choose one of those.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 18:59
|
|
|
If you are willing to believe that Trump will take a hard stance against Israel based on absolutely nothing but your desire for someone to do it no matter how implausible, why not extend the same courtesy to Biden? If you believe Trump will depart from everything he’s ever said and done, you can also believe Biden is just trying not to rough the Jewish vote in November. And then you can vote for the guy with the better domestic agenda and not a professed desire to exterminate our own minorities
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 19:05
|
|
|
Gatts posted:This November, Tuesday only, choose your President! The Criminal Fuhrer Wannabe Donald Trump versus Genocidal Joe Biden! A woman’s right to choose and democracy versus the lives of the Palestinian people hangs in the balance and it is up to you to decide where your morality and ethics lie! This seems to be the content free comment that baited everyone into the same old flame war that turns this thread into the same unreadable mess every single time it happens.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 19:06
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:I'm asking this in good faith, because I am interested to know your perspective. If someone asks you "how is Biden actively shipping weapons to Israel during a genocide NOT supporting genocide?" what is your response? If those questions are supposed to be "good faith", I honestly, and sincerely do not know what you're actually asking, because I can't figure out a good faith reading of them. As written, they explicitly and implicitly include as assumptions several things I don't believe. They also seem to have only the most tenuous of connections to what you're quoting and supposedly responding to, the behaviours I'm advocating for, or the reasons why. I could try my best to answer them, but especially with the framing problems, I don't have the slightest idea what information you think you'd actually be getting from the answers or what purpose they are supposed to serve, so I'm hesitant to do so because it seems likely to mislead you somehow. Here's my questions: What behaviour do you think I am advocating for? What behaviour are you advocating for? How do you think those differ, especially but not exclusively in terms of outcomes? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 17, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 19:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 09:36 |
|
|
Everyone furiously trying to distance themselves from the Arizona supreme court ruling....except the AZ legislature: https://twitter.com/Garrett_Archer/status/1780662412255072451 Republicans will never vote to ease restrictions, to add exemptions, they will always back the most draconian anti-abortion measures because that is their path of least resistance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2024 19:27
|
|