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Very specifically, Hellknights want to implement how ORDERLY they believe Hell to be (and what they believe, rather than what may be the actual truth, is carrying a lot of weight here), they don't literally want to apply Hell's rules and the like to the world - that's why overall they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Evil. The other important thing to note is that each Order has their own focus, and thus modified views of just what implementing that order means. For example, the very first order, the Order of the Scourge, has a focus on rooting out corruption - specifically of the societal variety, so things such as abuses of power and organized crime. Given who's currently in charge of Cheliax, this means that they have an extremely tense relationship and there's a lot of dancing around being done - Scourge has probably constructed a fallback location, in case the issues completely blow up. Several orders are along the same lines, some very much lean towards evil, and there's at least one that leans towards good (Torrent, whose focus is tracking down kidnappers). Like, the majority of nations are mostly fine with Order of the Pike members showing up, because their focus is specifically monster hunting - they're not there to tell you how to run your country or you're too lenient with criminals or whatever, they're there to hunt down marauding giants or trolls or the like and that's about it. Conversely, basically no one wants to see certain other orders like Rack show up. CommissarMega posted:The long story short is that Hellknights are separated into different Orders, each with their own philosophical differences, basically. You're forgetting a key detail here - Hell's Vengeance (the AP in question) happens AFTER the Worldwound was closed. Very specifically, Godclaw found Iomedae's sword from when she was a mortal, and kept it because hey, Iomedae is part of their worship and here's a holy relic of hers. A whole bunch of Iomedaean crusaders, basically bored and out of anything else do do, went "No." And after mugging Godclaw's citadel (in Isger) proceeded to invade Cheliax.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:46
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Lord Koth posted:
They found a holy relic and decided that it was time to gently caress up a bunch of Asmodeus worshippers? Fair enough honestly.
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Apr 14, 2024 05:10
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Since the orders keep coming up, here's a list of some of them. (I think the idea is that you can effectively create whatever Minor Hellknight Order you want for your own campaign, so the details are kept a little fuzzy, but there are a bunch of extant ones that are pre-built with well-known philosophies, and I don't think this is even all of them.) Order of the Chain: bounty hunters. Superficially, because they chain up criminals, but more deeply their name is a reference to the Medieval philosophy of the Great Chain of Being, in which everything has its own specific place in the hierarchy of life (starting with God at the top, then moving down to angels, humanity, animals, etc.) Each being on the Great Chain is bound to a specific relationship with the beings above and below it (so, for instance, humans have obligations to animals, which also have obligations to humans, although obviously the latter outnumber the former.) The Order of the Chain expresses a similar belief attached to humanoid society: that every person has a place in that society with similar commitments above and below, and that abandoning that place is a grave sin. Their punishment, when they catch people, is usually returning them to where they "belong", enslaving them, imprisoning them, or any combination thereof. That's not to say that they don't believe in social movement, it just has to happen within the rules, by fulfilling your role well enough that you deserve advancement. In other words, they are classist slaving assholes. Order of the Gate: the Department of Precrime that uses prophecy and [checks notes] devil summoning to prevent crimes before they even happen. This is where most of the hellknight-associated wizards are. The Gate in the name is metaphorical, unless it isn't because more or less everyone assumes they have a big gate to Hell hidden away somewhere. Even other hellknights think these jerks are a bit weird. Do I have to explain why imprisoning or killing people for things they haven't done yet and summoning honest-to-god fiends to enforce your will are the actions of assholes? I do not. Order of the Godclaw: this is probably a reference to the Berserk anime, except the five members of the Godhand are gods instead of demons (okay, all of this can be argued, but come on). Basically, this order took five lawful gods (Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag) and then assembled their own lovely creed by finding all the worst parts of the doctrine of those gods and combining them. They have all the jerky aspects of paladins without the "compelled to actually help people" part that makes paladins vaguely tolerable. This is the order the guy in the LP said he was part of, so I won't get into the details of why they're assholes; they can speak for themselves. Order of the Nail: have you ever heard of the doctrine of Manifest Destiny? The idea that white settlers didn't just have the right, but actually the duty, to extend the reach of civilization into the wild frontier, and that that expansion was an inevitable process? That's what these guys are all about. They go out and fight barbarians and orcs and goblins and little old ladies who just like to live on their own in the woods and conquer their territory in the name of civilization. They are explicitly imperialist assholes. Order of the Pike: a minor order. Big game hunters. They mostly focus on killing monsters, especially dangerous ones. Might not actually be assholes. Order of the Pyre: the Spanish Inquisition. No, seriously, that's about it. The "pyre" in their name is a reference to burning witches, which is something they do with great gusto. They're okay with you worshipping conventionally (which includes regular old diabolism), but if you do anything outside the "normal" course of religion (in their own view of what normal is) or worship any being that they don't believe is worthy of worship, they will literally set you on fire and do everything they can to destroy any teachings you may have disseminated to others. They are book- (and person-) burning assholes. Order of the Rack: the secular version of the Order of the Pyre, enforcing social uniformity instead of religious uniformity. If you want to do anything that threatens what they view as the most important cultural traditions (by setting up a printing press, say), they will put a stop to you with murder, torture, and additional murder and torture. Then they will burn everything you made. This includes the explicitly Orwellian practice of destroying any old versions of the history books in the region they live in when new versions show up to prevent incorrect thought. They are regressive, traditionalist assholes. Order of the Scourge: Secret police (well, as secret as you can be when you show up in black armor and just flat-out kidnap or decapitate people). Or, if you like, a troupe of Batmen without the prohibition against killing. Their primary crusade is against corruption and criminal behavior, so at least a larger percentage of the people they extrajudicially murder actually deserve it than is usually the case with hellknights. They are vigilante assholes, although there is at least an argument for them doing more good than harm. Order of the Torrent: Another minor order. Liam Neeson from Taken. Hunt down kidnappers, murder them, and rescue their victims. Also might not be assholes.
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Apr 14, 2024 05:36
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So they are literally Inquisition from Warhammer 40k, including "Ordo Something" naming?
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Apr 14, 2024 11:09
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Ordo Moronicus? I only know one thing about the hellknights but I'll wait to complain and ridicule that until it actually shows up.  Based on that and what people are saying sending them in as first wave shock troops seems like the best solution for everyone. Just make sure to meet the minimum requirement of casualties. ProfessorCirno posted:The Hellknights are ineffective because fascists are fundamentally awful at war despite their obsession with it. Poil fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 11:47
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Fun fact, not only can you tell Irabeth in this scene that you'd been contemplating joining the Hellknights yourself, there's no less than four character classes tied to them. There's two prestige classes, one for martial types and one for mages, but then also two base kits: Armiger is a fighter kit explicitly fluffed as being a Hellknight in training, and Disciple of the Pike is a cavalier kit that gives up the cavalier mount in favor of lots of bonuses with spears and fighting big enemies. All of them bar the Disciple of the Pike, have to swear to one of the orders mentioned above, minus the Pike and Torrent, and get related bonuses for the order they pick. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 12:21
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Cythereal posted:"I kinda think this isn't a knight at all. A real Hellknight would be skinned alive for losing his infamous black armor. I'm picturing the Hellknights' camp cook, in a menacing, black 'n spiky armour,, with a white chef's hat on top of their horned helmet.
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Apr 14, 2024 16:53
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Deviating from the established recipe is unlawful. Petition to add turmeric to the soup is denied.
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Apr 14, 2024 17:03
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Cythereal posted:Fun fact, not only can you tell Irabeth in this scene that you'd been contemplating joining the Hellknights yourself, there's no less than four character classes tied to them. Appropriately, those classes also all suck, save *maybe* putting a single level into the Hellknight Prestige Class to get access to another Smite for charisma heavy melee builds. Maybe.
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Apr 14, 2024 17:10
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Honestly, I don't recall the party member ever even really talking about their supposed order or its beliefs, except possibly on a very surface level, and they definitely don't come across as remotely religious. It's always seemed a relatively bizarre choice of order for them by Owlcat. Cythereal posted:Fun fact, not only can you tell Irabeth in this scene that you'd been contemplating joining the Hellknights yourself, there's no less than four character classes tied to them. Pike and Torrent are minor orders, which is why they're not on the list. And while those are good examples of the extremes of what minor can entail - Pike is really bloody large for being a supposed "minor" order, whereas Torrent was down a whole 23 individuals recently (not Hellknights, members of the order period) though has potentially recovered a bit since - Paizo never really published the benefits for minor orders (Torrent's are listed in an AP, but that's the exception to the rule), and Owlcat wasn't just going to make one up for Pike. ProfessorCirno posted:Appropriately, those classes also all suck, save *maybe* putting a single level into the Hellknight Prestige Class to get access to another Smite for charisma heavy melee builds. Maybe. Hellknight Signifier is perfectly fine though, leaning towards good? Doesn't lose a single casting level, 3/4 BAB ( nice for arcane casters), and a slew of abilities to include multiple immunities, a saving throw boost vs illusion, free rounds of True Seeing and the ability to wear and cast freely in full plate even as a wizard. Last one is the most dubious, but that's more to do with general problems of armor in general in this game. The only real cost is a single feat slot (for Arcane Armor Training or Warrior Priest) - amusingly the class is supposed to require Medium Armor Proficiency (thus forcing more feats or crossclassing), but Owlcat didn't code that as a requirement. You just ignore those and pick up Heavy Armor Proficiency for free. The actual Hellknight prestige class sucks though. Even the smite is dubious, because Paladin is basically the only martial class (and this is basically exclusively a martial prestige class) that gets any benefit from Charisma, and without high CHA you're left with a smite that deals a whole +2 points of damage on attacks against a single target per day, with minimal or no boost to attack or deflection (both scale on CHA). You still get the "Bypasses all DR" tag, which is technically more useful then it is for Paladin, since the most likely source of otherwise unbypassable DR is Barbarian and Paladins can only target evil ones, but that's super niche (and most DMs aren't going throw something like a super gimmick max DR Barb at a party for obvious reasons) and basically the sole real "benefit."
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Apr 14, 2024 18:59
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Most of the classes and archetypes are aggressively fine and I would argue that most could cross the finish line on Core. It's just some classes and archetypes are categorically better than others and optimization is the name of the game. On lower difficulties though it's fun to play around with lesser used character concepts.
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Apr 14, 2024 21:02
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Yeah, the Hellknight stuff might not make your character worse, but there's basically always better options. In most cases your generic bonuses from your various caster classes will be better then what Signifier gives you, and even beyond that, everything it gives you is more easily replicable through spells or items. Like, who cares about a few levels of True Seeing when you can just have one of your divine casters give everyone True Seeing. The big benefit of Hellknight isn't to Paladin, who's far better off staying in paladin, to get Mark of Justice, which is one of the best abilities in the game. It's to...well, almost specifically, Oracle, who wants sky high charisma as is. An Oracle front-liner benefits tremendously from putting a level in Paladin, and then just using Mythic abilities to turn one smite into 6. Hellknight isn't a terrible choice for them, especially if they're your main character, as you can make up for missing caster levels by taking Angel. There's a few reasons why Angel Oracle is probably the strongest PC in the game, and one big reason is due to insane charisma stacking benefits that they can grab through a few level dips here and there, and Angel spellcasting making up for missing Oracle spellcaster levels. A level in Monk and a level in Paladin gives your Oracle not only nearly full spellcaster benefits even without Angel, it gives you likely the best defense and offense in the game. Charisma stacking is real, it's strong, and it's my friend. See also: why Court Poet is so much better then any other Skald option.
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Apr 14, 2024 23:51
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I was just playing through the first act, and Hulrun really does seem like a villain. It feels like he's one reveal away from being a secret cultist plant to undermine the city and discredit the Inquisition. He's got all of this power and resources but it turns out that there are massive cultist bases all over that he hasn't found; like how hard would it have been to send one single person to the abandoned areas of the city to see if anyone's living in there or not. Conversely if you confront him about the burning innocent people alive, he's completely nonchalant about it. He's also "standing guard" over an empty area of the city while literal demons chisel away at the anchor points of reality. In any other game he would be the villain. In fact he'd be the villain in this game too except for one thing. He exists to add "moral complexity" by letting you show mercy to someone who very obviously doesn't deserve it. Because of that, game design means that he can never betray you in the future and has to prove useful at some point. It would be completely unsurprising to get back to camp in Chapter 2 and find out that he's been burning the Mongrelfolk alive for being "tainted" except he won't because the more you tolerate him the bigger the payoff has to be at the end. I've also been trying the new run with difficulty set to "Core".. and some of the encounters are absolutely brutal. There's a 9HD demon that shows up in the market completely out of the blue, it's got massive damage resistance, 3 attacks a round and casts mirror image several times to nullify 5 hits each time. He wiped my party by himself. Then there's those 3 HD demons that cast stinking cloud over the entire party that cripples everyone who doesn't make a save for to 1d4+1 turns and practically everything has 3 attacks or DR or both. One other thing I've tried is using toolbox to make every diceroll roll with advantage, and this makes the game a lot more active. It makes attacks more likely to hit, do more damage on average and both sides are more likely to make their saving throws; but grease is still absolutely deadly. I think that it's probably a good rule to adapt, since D&D does tend to stall quite a bit with battles turning into miss, miss, save, miss, etc..
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Apr 16, 2024 08:06
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rastilin posted:In any other game he would be the villain. In fact he'd be the villain in this game too except for one thing. He exists to add "moral complexity" by letting you show mercy to someone who very obviously doesn't deserve it. Because of that, game design means that he can never betray you in the future and has to prove useful at some point. It would be completely unsurprising to get back to camp in Chapter 2 and find out that he's been burning the Mongrelfolk alive for being "tainted" except he won't because the more you tolerate him the bigger the payoff has to be at the end. The payoff mostly depends on how much you like Galfrey and Mendev. It's very, very easy for Wrath of the Righteous to end with Galfrey dead and Mendev in anarchy or getting conquered by its neighbors even if you're on one of the good-guy mythic paths.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:22
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The only reason Hulrun is even able to be killed by your party of misfits is that he's been doing his best Doomslayer impression since things went to hell. When he says he's "standing guard," that's his face saving way of taking a rest after he got massively level drained. He's probably responsible for more killed demons than anyone else in the city, possibly including the PC. He's also a paranoid, judgemental rear end in a top hat who will execute "traitor" Desna clerics for the crime of being pretty suspicious, but the Crusade is a land of contrasts. rastilin posted:I've also been trying the new run with difficulty set to "Core".. and some of the encounters are absolutely brutal. There's a 9HD demon that shows up in the market completely out of the blue, it's got massive damage resistance, 3 attacks a round and casts mirror image several times to nullify 5 hits each time. He wiped my party by himself. Then there's those 3 HD demons that cast stinking cloud over the entire party that cripples everyone who doesn't make a save for to 1d4+1 turns and practically everything has 3 attacks or DR or both. Do you have a moment for me tell you about our Lord and Savior, Selective Spell Grease...
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Apr 16, 2024 12:50
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Cythereal posted:The payoff mostly depends on how much you like Galfrey and Mendev. I've just finished the tavern defense section, and it was brutal. Several observations... - It's lucky the forces of hell are so disorganized, because a remotely organized offense would have shattered the place instantly. There were ~four of the stinking cloud demons in that fight and they locked down over half the troops each time they showed up. - Grease is incredible at locking down an entry and seems to last forever. Easily 50+ rounds. - Lann using a Masterwork Compound bow is absolutely deadly. Easily the MVP of that battle. - Ember is very powerful. Sleep 1/day/target is incredible. You'd never need to hit the same target more than twice anyway, so the restriction will almost never come up. Same for the healing. Her default build comes loaded with heals anyway, so it's like getting 6 additional medium cures per day. - It's practically impossible to beat the first chapter in under 3 days if you rest at all. There's one point where I tried to rest and the minimum rest time was over a day and a half, even without trying to rest until healed. In higher difficulties you need to rest to recover spells, so it gets harder to make it in time. At one point the doors break down and a 8HD demon minotaur comes in. It's got damage resistance and 4 attacks per round. It took out 2 party members in one round of combat, then took my party leader from 30 health to -23 in the next. The Paladin, Isobel and her troops watched this and didn't move from their position guarding the Tavern door. Actually her troops don't move at all except to do attacks of opportunity at people rushing past to target the archers, who are the only people contributing. Isobel didn't even move when her two archers got cut down in melee next to her. Eventually I parked Lann in the back and used him to whittle down the Minotaur while I healed up anyone who could be healed and had them distract it in melee. So. Yes. In the harder difficulties it's brutal. I was going to go Angel but I'm tempted to go with Trickster because you basically have to abuse the rules to have any real shot of survival... and I can feel my sympathy for both Mendev and Galfrey who is in charge of it rapidly eroding.
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Apr 16, 2024 12:56
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Angel is one of the most powerful Mythics and Oracle Angel in particular is a contender for the strongest class in the entire game. You also don’t need to be pro Galfrey or Mendev to play an Angel in character, I didn’t give a poo poo about either and the narrative still functioned perfectly fine.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:01
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RevolverDivider posted:Angel is one of the most powerful Mythics and Oracle Angel in particular is a contender for the strongest class in the entire game. You also don’t need to be pro Galfrey or Mendev to play an Angel in character, I didn’t give a poo poo about either and the narrative still functioned perfectly fine. That's good to know. I'll stick with Angel. Though in this case I was thinking more in terms of there being so much loophole and rules abuse to stay alive that I might as well just give up pretense and play a Warlock who's pacted to the "Mods". Or the Cleric who worships "The DM".
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Apr 16, 2024 13:05
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rastilin posted:- It's practically impossible to beat the first chapter in under 3 days if you rest at all. There's one point where I tried to rest and the minimum rest time was over a day and a half, even without trying to rest until healed. In higher difficulties you need to rest to recover spells, so it gets harder to make it in time. Turn off recommended resting and you will always rest 8 hours. It's really easy to keep under the limit to skip the siege that way especially on difficulties under Core when the only reason you're probably resting is to clear fatigue (and you already know what order to do things without doubling back). In my most recent game I had to intentionally rest a bunch to trigger the siege because I ran out of things to do otherwise.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:30
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SettingSun posted:Turn off recommended resting and you will always rest 8 hours. It's really easy to keep under the limit to skip the siege that way especially on difficulties under Core when the only reason you're probably resting is to clear fatigue (and you already know what order to do things without doubling back). In my most recent game I had to intentionally rest a bunch to trigger the siege because I ran out of things to do otherwise. I thought I had, I had both boxes unticked and the setting set to "1" on that selector above the rest button, but the rest time still said ~ 1 day 16 hours.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:34
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Capfalcon posted:He's also a paranoid, judgemental rear end in a top hat who will execute "traitor" Desna clerics for the crime of being pretty suspicious, but the Crusade is a land of contrasts. I mind him a lot less than most characters in his vein. Wrath is very explicit that Hulrun isn't a hard man making hard decisions because it gets him (and the writers) hard, he's a traumatized, barely functional wreck of a man.
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Apr 16, 2024 13:53
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rastilin posted:- Grease is incredible at locking down an entry and seems to last forever. Easily 50+ rounds. I think I mentioned this when I was gushing about it earlier, but its duration is one of the silliest things about it. It lasts one minute per level, which may not sound like much until you realize that one minute is ten combat rounds. Most fights in the game do not last ten rounds, meaning that even at level 1 you are going to be able to keep it up throughout most fights, and by the time you get to the siege you'll probably be high enough level that you won't need to recast it even for that. (And if you do, certainly not more than once.) The only downside of this is accidentally walking your units through it after fights.
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Apr 16, 2024 14:24
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Cythereal posted:I mind him a lot less than most characters in his vein. Wrath is very explicit that Hulrun isn't a hard man making hard decisions because it gets him (and the writers) hard, he's a traumatized, barely functional wreck of a man. it is a much better take on that guy than you usually see he is genuinely committed to a good cause, and his personal issues have allowed him to take that good cause and staple "I should probably indulge every paranoid instinct I have because the alternative is being betrayed again and the cause cannot afford to lose me" onto it. he is a hosed up man making hosed up decisions, who nobody will gainsay because he used to have it under some kind of control. much more believable depiction of the problem.
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Apr 16, 2024 16:03
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Hulrun's paranoia isn't unfounded considering the history of Kenabres but he takes it to quite the extreme. Imagine if someone had time to tell him about the cultist den in the Shield Maze. He probably would have a heart attack.
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Apr 16, 2024 17:08
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I don't really care for personal issues of someone who was willing to burn a child on stake. edit: and to be fair, 40k made me sick of "he's a fanatic and a bigot, but his cause isn't wrong because this universe sucks" argument. Hulrun is literally Inquisitor from 40k, just of this kind who actually believe they are good guys. Szarrukin fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 18:01
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Yeah I tend to have zero sympathy for the Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil assholes in this game. Hulrun just doesn't work for me at all.
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Apr 16, 2024 19:30
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Daeran and Spoiler Character, while being total assholes, at least have some interesting writing, Hulrun is just generic "burn the heretic" dude.
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Apr 16, 2024 21:29
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Alas, the Hellknights will have to wait. The next update has been recorded, and it's time for a detour.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:25
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Szarrukin posted:Daeran and Spoiler Character, while being total assholes, at least have some interesting writing, Hulrun is just generic "burn the heretic" dude. disagreed! generic burn the heretic dude is, you are correct, dull as dishwater. but the question "who put this idiot in charge" is usually left strategically unanswered, because "the writer wanted that stock character for our heroes to epically and deservedly own" takes some of the fun out of epically and deservedly owning them. there is an established reason why Hulrun is in charge, and there is an established reason why nobody has called him out on what a poo poo he has become, which makes you the newcomer coming along and epically and deservedly owning him feel a LOT more earned than when you announce "has anyone noticed this guy sucks" to a town that somehow evaded that realization right up until the PC said it out loud. everyone knows what Hulrun has become sucks. but the guy he was before peeks out juuuust often enough that people can convince themselves no, really, it's still worth it to put up with his increasingly paranoid and deranged poo poo. nobody tells you "he's making the Necessary Choices." they tell you "...he didn't use to be this bad." and that makes him a lot more interesting a character, and significantly more satisfying to dunk into the center of the earth!
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Apr 17, 2024 04:23
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I think it's more that they're telling you that he's very good at ferreting out issues and oddities, but he basically requires advisors/minders/whatever around him to separate those issues into "actually needs to be addressed" and "innocuous," and then talk him around into only dealing with the former. When Kenabres fell, he both lost any of those advisors that were still in the city AND had his paranoia pumped up even more at the same time.
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Apr 17, 2024 06:41
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Lord Koth posted:I think it's more that they're telling you that he's very good at ferreting out issues and oddities, but he basically requires advisors/minders/whatever around him to separate those issues into "actually needs to be addressed" and "innocuous," and then talk him around into only dealing with the former. When Kenabres fell, he both lost any of those advisors that were still in the city AND had his paranoia pumped up even more at the same time. It still sounds like they're just justifying their own inaction. Because that doesn't explain why he didn't find the massive cult bases in the city, even though "the giant underground temple that no one uses right now but is perfectly functional" would be like the ideal place to set up shop if you're a cult. It also doesn't justify him not caring when you bring up the chance that someone he killed was innocent. Otherwise I've gotten through more of Chapter 2 and I have several further thoughts on the plot, but I'll wait for the Let's Play to advance before I say anything.
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Apr 17, 2024 10:09
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rastilin posted:It still sounds like they're just justifying their own inaction. Because that doesn't explain why he didn't find the massive cult bases in the city, even though "the giant underground temple that no one uses right now but is perfectly functional" would be like the ideal place to set up shop if you're a cult. It also doesn't justify him not caring when you bring up the chance that someone he killed was innocent. Yes, no one involved is perfect and making flawlessly rational and good decisions. Most people in Wrath are varying degrees of biased, messed up, and making 'necessary sacrifices for the greater good' that may or may not be actually necessary or for the greater good. If you choose to keep Cammy around after she shows her true colors, for example, Anevia explicitly accepts it on the basis that Cammy in your service kills far more demons and cultists than she does crusaders and random townsfolk, so while she doesn't like it, she does choose to not try to assassinate Cammy on that basis.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:18
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Cythereal posted:Yes, no one involved is perfect and making flawlessly rational and good decisions. Most people in Wrath are varying degrees of biased, messed up, and making 'necessary sacrifices for the greater good' that may or may not be actually necessary or for the greater good. Yeah, my problem with this is obvious. The Evil companions in Kingmaker had redeeming qualities and were able to be redeemed. They weren’t taking advantage of your idiocy or apathy and still creating problems even with your letting them stick around. This game is a different story.  Of course, you can have Cammy kill Hulrun (and a few other morally questionable people) Dexter style if you do keep her around, but doing that costs you the benefit of having his help in Act 5.
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Apr 17, 2024 13:25
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Mel and Wendy are the only characters who are actively causing problems after joining your team, and even that can be curtailed, but, as always, that's a whole lot of updates away. Daeran isn't actually hurting anyone, and the soon-to-be revealed character would be sincerely aghast at the idea of disobeying commands. Remember, we're still in the early parts of the game!
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Apr 17, 2024 14:47
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Outfoxed The first order of business for today is more boring kickstarter drow poo poo.   "How should I know... it must have been demons. If the wound was serious, I doubt he has fully recovered from it. Maybe if you could point me toward a healer, I could..." (The woman, wrapped in rags all the way up to her eyes, turns around at the sound of your footsteps.) "drat it!" (In a lightning-fast motion, Anevia knocks something from the woman's hands — an amulet that seemingly appeared out of nowhere. It falls to the ground and disappears in a flash of magic.) "What's the rush, sweetheart? Stay awhile. The Commander and me, we've got a couple questions for you, too." "You won't escape this time. Who are you, and why are you hiding your face?" (You hear a heavy sigh coming from under the shawl.) "Fine, you've got me. We'll talk... but not here. Lead me somewhere away from prying eyes." "She's all yours, Commander. I caught her, I handed her over, and now, as they say, I wash my hands of this whole affair."I'm kind of wishing I'd just killed her back in Kenabres. The things I do to show off content.   (In an exasperated gesture, she rips the half-mask off her face, and you see her black skin and crimson eyes. It's Kaylessa, the elf you met in Kenabres.) "You're a drow, aren't you." (She flinches, looking at you with undisguised sorrow.) "You have a keen eye for these things, don't you, soldier? You guessed correctly — I am a drow. But don't think that gives you the right to judge me. There is much you don't know about me... and never will know. Believe me, it's for your own good." "I met other elves who looked like you. They served the demons." "Anemora's minions!" (The words escape her lips before she is able to stop them, then she looks at you with visible irritation.) "One of Deskari's servants is a powerful elf by the name of Anemora. And those corrupted elves are her lackeys. Don't ask me how I know this or why my appearance is similar to theirs. I'm not your enemy, but if you see them — kill them without remorse." "Are you a spy?" (Her scarlet eyes flash defiantly, and she mutters through her teeth,) "I'm not going to hide it — I have come here to commit a violent and bloody act. But I do not serve the demons and I won't do you or your forces any harm." "Don't play coy. I need details."At least when I write fanfic featuring ambiguously antagonistic characters hiding important information from the protagonists, I give them the decency to speak in half-truths and lie by omission, not "I know this is important but don't ask how I know this" dumb poo poo. Granted, I have something of a weakness for antagonists (and heroes with something big to hide) who are very careful to never, strictly speaking, lie. Leave out critical context and details when it suits them, but always truthful to the letter of their word.  [Perception check succeeded!] (She's clearly lying to you, but... it doesn't feel like the guile of someone plotting a crime. There is a slight hounded look to her eyes that makes her seem more like prey than hunter.) "I'll leave you be." "My gut tells me it's time I was leaving too — it's dangerous to stay here. Farewell, soldier."Basically, in this as in the previous meetings with her and the future meetings with her, you have two choices: kill her or keep letting her go until the thrilling conclusion of the subplot.  I buy a robe for Nenio from Woljiff's shop now that I remembered that he has one via his thiefling buddies.  Scripted not-actually-random encounter with some demons.  The point is to search the wrecked campsite for this, which reveals another area on the world map.  But the primary point of this update is Nenio.  The Nameless Ruins are littered with ghouls, all of which have class levels - there are stalkers (rogues), brutes (fighters), and huntermasters (rangers).  Also various undead animals. Smilodons are better known to most as saber-toothed tigers, in case the megaloceri from Chilly Creek weren't enough of a hint that this whole region is vaguely themed after prehistoric North America (specifically the northern US and Canada before you hit the prairie).   I spent five months after the war tracking down local oral history trying to determine what made berries whimsical. My wife thought I was insane, but what's the point of becoming an immortal creature of mirth and whimsy if you don't indulge your curiosity now and then? Nenio introduces this pack to the wizard hello.  Yaker warned us, and here they are: gargoyles. Monstrous humanoids with serious damage reduction, Seelah actually struggles to do damage here because Radiance is not at present actually magical and we're still a ways off upgrading it. I should keep a look out for a magical longsword that drops, I suppose. Or buy one.  This is a puzzle. Each piece of this lights up when clicked on, and if you look around the area you'll see this circle in a square in a circle symbol repeated on the walls.  Solution.  Another toy for Nenio.  Those who have expressed sympathies for my job situation, I appreciate it.  I work in administration at a college, and we're coming up on the end of both the spring semester and the end of the overall school year (and fiscal year), with attendant workload.Although it's not without laughs. I don't know what possesses college students to send the college email addresses like mister 'pussyterminator420@such-and-such' as their personal non-college contact email, but I see one or two along those lines every semester.    "The absence of an answer is an answer too." "Hey! Hey, wait, where are you going? Spontaneous dematerialization is unscientific!" (Nenio touches the statue and suddenly freezes.) (Following her example, you put your hand on the statue — and the world around you ceases to exist. You are a lone grain of sand floating in the emptiness of the unknown. Your path has no beginning and no end. You are tiny and insignificant in comparison with the cosmos that surrounds you. But then something changes. The emptiness takes notice of you. It stares at you, measures and assesses you. Then a question comes — as simple and as deep as the emptiness itself.) "Who are you?" "What about you?"Yeah, you don't get a choice, the PC automatically touches the thing and your dialogue options don't matter until you ride the railroad to its destination.  "I am Yua." (The name you uttered, that seemed so powerful and proud, rings through the emptiness. Then the silence comes — bleak and oppressive. The emptiness still awaits your answer.) "I am..." (Do you want to say your name? But what is it? Just a set of sounds you used to associate with yourself. You are — Yua? Who decided this is who you are? Your parents? Yourself? Someone else? A name is just a label you take voluntarily. What happens if you tear this label off? What hides behind the name Yua?) "Behold the truth. Open yourself to knowledge. Reveal yourself."I'll give Nenio and her subplot a proper analysis of their own later, I think.    (Seelah instinctively lays her hand on her weapon.) "What's going on here? Nenio, is that you?" "It appears that you are a kitsune." (The kitsune stares down at her hands, then runs her fingers over her pointy muzzle, lingering over her sharp teeth and ears.) "It appears your observation is correct. I am a kitsune." (Nenio scratches behind her ear.) "If my hypothesis is correct — and the probability of that is close to one hundred percent — I have always been a kitsune, but at some point, I decided to forget that piece of knowledge. Following this line of reasoning, it would seem the fact of my membership of a certain race just doesn't seem relevant to me. Also, there is a more important question — why did my true identity reveal itself in this precise moment?" (She casts a pensive look at the ancient statue towering over you.) "And nothing bothered you at all? You never wanted to shift your shape? You never felt uncomfortable without a tail you can comfortably wrap around you as you go to sleep in the evening? How could you ever forget that you are one of us?"From what I'm told, unsurprisingly about half of all kitsune-specific dialogue in this game involves your interactions with Nenio.   "I have no words. Can I just stand here silently and look like I'm thinking something smart?" "What was that? I found myself in emptiness, and a voice asked me questions." "I suppose it was a trap that yanked our minds out of our plane and temporarily transferred us to another one. I wish I knew which plane. By the way, did you know that the most efficient way to disarm a corridor's worth of magical traps is with the help of a scientist who has been told that the formula for an elixir of the ancient races lies hidden at the end of said booby-trapped corridor?" (The kitsune sighs heavily.) "Whose voice do you think that was?" "I haven't the slightest idea. But it is most definitely an extremely wise entity. Besides, the entity displayed no aggressive tendencies, which gives us hope that it can be reasoned with." "So what do you think about that?"By the way, if you never bother coming here, you can go the entire game without Nenio ever being [officially] revealed as a kitsune.  "I suppose..." (The kitsune's eyes light up.) "I suppose this trap wasn't a trap, per se, it rather was a closed portal leading to some hidden place that can easily unveil secrets and reveal the truth. The one who spoke to us seemed to solve me like a riddle — in an instant, just by looking at me. I... I would like to meet this entity. Can you imagine which secrets it can unravel? I want to speak to it, and you, my follower, must help me! But how can you get there? If there is a door, there must be a way to open it. If there's a lock, there must be a key to it. Hmm. There is an inscription here. Right on the statue. I am the void and the emptiness. I am the starting point. I am infinite. Tear my mask off and let it fall at my feet." (Nenio clears her throat.) "I don't understand this at all. How thrilling!" "It sounds like a riddle." "It does! It really does! I love riddles and puzzles!" "Why are you so sure the unknown entity behind the mysterious puzzle would even want to talk to us?" "I'm not sure at all. But we must try, we simply must. Getting there and talking with this entity will be the greatest of my experiments, no exaggeration." "How do we solve it?" (Nenio quickly examines the statues.) "Each of them is inscribed with a riddle, and each demands that something be placed at its feet. I guess we need some items that represent the answers to these riddles. But don't ask me where we should look for them." "I don't think there's anything more we can do here." (Nenio sighs and turns away from the statue.) "With deepest regret, I have to admit that you are right. It's highly unlikely that we'll be able to solve this riddle right here and now. We'll have to temporarily withdraw, so we can return when we're armed and ready!"Nenio's not kidding. You can't solve this place until near the end of the game.  But I don't think I'm going to. I think I'll settle for doing a proper character analysis post of The Fox That Ponders in the future. The Crimson Path (this update) Babau 2 Gargoyles 3 Ghouls 10 Undead Animals 3
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Apr 18, 2024 01:24
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Cythereal posted:Although it's not without laughs. I don't know what possesses college students to send the college email addresses like mister 'pussyterminator420@such-and-such' as their personal non-college contact email, but I see one or two along those lines every semester. Oh, and the different-species reveal was... I dunno... seemingly arbitrary? I'll wait for your own thoughts on the matter.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:51
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The crusade is fighting a force well known for subterfuge and infiltration and yet they are very lax about some mysterious stranger coming into camp and asking probing questions.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:51
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SettingSun posted:The crusade is fighting a force well known for subterfuge and infiltration and yet they are very lax about some mysterious stranger coming into camp and asking probing questions. It’s not a mysterious stranger. Her name is Nenio, and she’s the greatest scientist on Golarion! I know because she told me so herself! Clearly these gargoyles are not part of Clan Wyvern. And if you get that reference to a popular 1990s Disney cartoon, congratulations, we’re both old. I agree Nenio’s dungeon is a slog and not very much fun. If you want, after your character analysis, I’ll give a brief discussion of it and how it impacts her character and the game. Good luck with your job issues. I am glad to have dodged the particular bit of college stupidity you describe.
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Apr 18, 2024 02:45
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achtungnight posted:I agree Nenio’s dungeon is a slog and not very much fun. If you want, after your character analysis, I’ll give a brief discussion of it and how it impacts her character and the game. I have done Nenio's dungeon in a previous game and will explain it in the analysis.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:00
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Should have figured that. Very well.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:22
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