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Gun Jam posted:You just executed your own wounded, yo. And if you call him on it, he'll blame the crusaders for distracting them and the hellknights totes would have kicked everyone's asses with no problem if they weren't weighed down by those other losers. That's just a thing Regill does. Any time you criticize him and the Hellknights, he always finds a way to deflect it and either assert that nothing bad happened or blame it on somebody else.
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Apr 21, 2024 19:18
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i like Regill as a character because the ability to speech check your way into everyone putting their differences aside and forming one big happy family annoys me. it's a fun fantasy and all! but courtesy of game design being game design, it culminates in a weird system where there's the people with voice acting, who can all be talked out of being bad people, and the people without, who can be killed in uncountable numbers without any qualms. in a large group, sharing a common goal, there are going to be people who believe wrong, stupid, and indeed horrible things you disagree with. and are on your side anyway, for their own reasons. they will not be talked out of believing them, because they arrived at those beliefs for a reason beyond "nobody ever asked me to stop being an rear end in a top hat nicely enough" Regill is an awful little nightmare of a man, who is nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is, and has the ability to help you out (some) if you're willing to put up with his poo poo. asking the question "how do you handle this guy" is an interesting one. congrats, you are in the driver's seat of a powerful organization. meet Literally The First Problem Every Leader Encounters. what do.
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Apr 21, 2024 19:33
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Yeah, disliking the Hard Men Doing Hard Things fascist trope aside, it's a simple fact of life that leading an organization as large as the Crusade, especially a military one, will inevitably lead to making common cause with Bad People who happen to share your goals but not your motivations, and Regill is emblematic of that struggle for the PC
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Apr 21, 2024 19:39
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At least you get to save some non-hellknight folks. I think I came to rationalize it pretty much the same way you did. I didn't technically expend any resources grabbing them besides a bit of time and effort, and if they want to goose step their dumb little asses into slowing down a demon horde in my stead, I wasn't going to particularly stop them. Though it doesn't surprise me, it still saddens me a little to hear the source of his popularity.
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Apr 21, 2024 19:56
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Actually, let's cycle back a bit:Cythereal posted:'Every gulp of water in my unit is accounted for,' they said. They spared us two flasks and a sack of dried bread. They said we were allowed to keep the sack to use as bandages. Two flasks between all of us! A sack for bandages!" Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics. If you got every bit of food perfectly rationed, it means that if something goes wrong (like, say, a gargoyle attack on your supply train), you are screwed. And he's operating inside a few days inside enemy territory. Wasn't that a bit in band of brothers, about nazi supplies? “Look at you, you have horses! What were you thinking?!” (of course, any proper military historians here might correct me - logistics are hard, armies didn't tend to move with surplus food, and so on - I'm just a layman, y'know?)
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Apr 21, 2024 20:25
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Cythereal posted:Hell by Compass Just wanted to note that I appreciate this title a lot, especially considering how many people died in that incident. Cythereal posted:
This isn't entirely a throwaway comment. Self-flagellation is one of the ways hellknights (particularly the Order of the Godclaw) will activate their abilities. Mechanically, these people have to spend an hour a day whipping themselves and meditating if they want to maintain their special powers. Cythereal posted:Regill is proof that quite a lot of reasonable people are in fact perfectly willing to sign on with fascists when sufficiently scared, because he's one of the more popular characters in this game. I like him... as a character. He's interesting for a number of reasons, some of which haven't come up yet. He's also a really great example of the self-defeating nature of fascism, as you point out several times in this update. I don't think that's actually accidental; there may be some 90s edgelord HARD MEN HARD CHOICES writers at Owlcat, but I'm pretty sure that's not the majority opinion. I also like that your arrival made the execution of the wounded soldiers totally unnecessary. If he'd just waited ten drat seconds before making that particular choice, you would have showed up with your ridiculous god-powers and healing magic and saved everyone. His forces were reduced as a result, so his actions weren't even effective in the way he would recognize. The fact is, assuming your PC is at the helm of the Forces of Good, the Forces of Good will always be effective without having to stoop to Hellknight tactics, ruining his entire schtick as a result. (Obviously if he were a real person, I would avoid him to the maximum extent possible and recommend he be dumped into the sea in all his armor at the earliest opportunity.)
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Apr 21, 2024 20:44
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"You see, Commander? Of course, I could be gracious and look the other way, but that would mean that during the next battle, ten or twenty of my people will think it's high time they ran to get help. Initiative requires reasonable limits. Not to mention, a hundred lashes is hardly a punishment for a true Hellknight. I'd say it's more of a spiritual warm-up."
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Gun Jam posted:Actually, let's cycle back a bit: here we delve into the problems of modern sensibilities vs. the way the vast majority of armies operated up until approximately the 1800s, and even then, the criticality of supply lines was a lot more conditional a thing until around WW1. to be a little reductive, up until you're having to care and feed for artillery, the way a military unit keeps itself operational is 'forage,' which is a polite euphemism for 'steal food and supplies from anyone you run across.' for quite a while there, the army defending you, John Civilian, was almost totally indistinguishable from the army attacking you. this is part of why the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death, in that order; the commoner's experience of warfare was that soldiers are going to steal your food, you are going to get sick, and then you are all going to die. from what we've seen from Regill, this would very much be up his alley. of course, this also meant that if the terrain -didn't- have a bunch of peasants lying around you could extort food from, any army moving through that area would immediately die horribly. there is a funny(?) case study of this in the form of Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, where he discovered that unlike fertile, richly-peasanted Italy, trying to forage in rural Egypt involved a lot of dying of thirst and heat stroke. it's hard to draw a conclusion either way, because it -could- be the writers assuming that as a moron, Regill hasn't brought enough supplies for his guys. it also could be the writers assuming that this is Regill getting his guys into Forager Mindset. it also could be the writers assuming this is Regill getting his guys into Forager Mindset without accounting for the fact there are no peasants to forage off of in the Worldwound.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:03
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Recruiting Tip- I always exhausted my free searches for Merc units like Clerics each week. Sadly you only get a couple squads total in Act 2 and once you hire from each twice, they lock down. But you have more free searches than that and this early on you aren’t motivated to grow a big diverse army. Thoughts on Regil- I’ve known people like him IRL working in the tech and security industries. Territorial jerks, sticklers about rules and authority, think they have a license to be shitheads. There are a few online too. At least Regil is not convinced of his own infallibility or actively sabotaging the crusades and you have to let him get away with it like Hulrun, Camellia, or Wendaug. And his Hellknights bring many advantages to the game. He also makes a strong companion, notably with builds not in the Hellknight classes. He gets some funny party member interactions too. This has endeared him to many players, myself included. I still bench him most of the time, but I will gladly put him on my front line and keep him around long term over other Evil companions. Just don’t expect healing priority, Regil. Karma is the law around here. And I try to keep him out of a command position apart from his Hellknight squad. You can improve the Relics like the Crest of the Fallen Knight with Crusade Decrees in Acts 3 and 5. They make decent niche equipment or sell for a lot of Gold. I suggest online research for deciding how to use them and getting as many as you can. Some of the battles are challenging early on, but they’re also a good source of exp for improving generals. Watch your in battle healing- I remember losing over half my army to those flies because I took them on before my general got a cure spell. You can leave the artifacts to Act 3 if you’re having trouble. The Gargoyle army that blocks the way to Regil is also a decently tough fight. Canmore Hunter Recommends heavy archer fire and scorching rays (another Disney Gargoyles nod). Prioritize the clerics as targets. I’ve never seen them heal, but Smite Good hurts. Regil’s intro is memorable and he will argue well in his defense if confronted about his atrocities. They’d still get him a court martial in any decent Good military in my opinion. And for the record, I feel the same way Cyth does about misery porn- it only motivates me to end suffering further and I wish we could see less of it in games and real life. I also have to note I grew to dislike Lann a lot after seeing him take Regil’s side here.  His other justification for killing the wounded is that the enemy gargoyles would have done worse to them. He’s not wrong. I could see Regil as autistic too. I have gotten very meticulous and pragmatic myself working in the tech industry. I will argue Regil is sabotaging his company with excessive regulations, however. Lashes for abandoning your post and your armor, no forgiveness, even if it was to get help… I would never want to be a Hellknight. I’m with Sosiel and Yua on them in general. I’m not a people person either, so I have some sympathy for him. But I still put him and his supporters in harm’s way excessively to thin their numbers and so they can prove the crap they spout. Welcome to the crusade, Regil. First order- count the wounded you executed and administer yourself one million lashes per victim. Yaker can count and deliver. Take this as motivation to save lives in the future- avoiding unnecessary stress and suffering is key here.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:08
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Don't read too hard into Regill's mysterious rationing protocol. It's just mentioned to reinforce that he's evil. It's pretty fun to keep Regill around when your mythic path is really cross purposes with him, like Azata or Trickster. He can't stand it lmao
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Apr 21, 2024 21:10
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One of the main reasons I'd go Trickster if I ever got this game is to troll Regill. He totally deserves it.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:16
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Honestly what's funny is even though the games narrative does shill for Regil alot, I don't remember the hell knights ever getting a single win that doesn't also have you there cleaning up after them. Any time they go off and try to do something without the PC they lose. IIRC you ignore the hell knights here they just lose to the gargoyles and Regil gets rescued by you later I think. The one time I remember them having units out in the world wound in chapter 3, they get wiped out with a few of them captured. I don't think they even managed to get a proper fort setup without needing the PC to step in and beat up the demons that took over the fort (Regil will claim this was set up as a test for the PC but it really feels like a CYA moment to me). Honestly if it wasn't for the narrative bending over backwards to make Regil look cool I would have thought the game was setting them up as a parody of the HARD MEN make HARD CHOICES group because honestly they have a worse success rate than Hulrun.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:17
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I like how Golarion's lore goes out of its way to say "They're not Evil, they're unconcerned with morality!" and then makes things like the Order of the Coil which was a cluster of Hellknights intent on preserving the culture of colonizers against "native corruption" and then have the major orders being strike-breaking union-busters, anti-religious zealots, enforcing slavery and rigid social structure, and literal gestapo.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:40
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Regil isn't a character I LIKE but he does share the trait with the other Hellknights of at least being interesting. They're all bastards but it's in a lot more complicated way than just being the typical RPG open psychos (i.e. they have an actual belief system they will make personal sacrifices to uphold rather than being nihilistic scum). And they're just useful and trustworthy enough to justify good characters working with them rather than going blades out every time (while still leaving that an option, especially with the more nasty orders). The nuance makes them worth having around even if they're wrong.RelentlessImp posted:I like how Golarion's lore goes out of its way to say "They're not Evil, they're unconcerned with morality!" and then makes things like the Order of the Coil which was a cluster of Hellknights intent on preserving the culture of colonizers against "native corruption" and then have the major orders being strike-breaking union-busters, anti-religious zealots, enforcing slavery and rigid social structure, and literal gestapo. And yet they also have orders dedicated to finding kidnapping victims or rooting out corruption in leadership (who are even going so far as to start sniffing around the evil queen working with Hell despite her working with the Hellknights in general). Like I said, at least interesting even if the logical read of them is in the end "cool motives, still villains".
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Apr 21, 2024 21:57
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Solitair posted:One of the main reasons I'd go Trickster if I ever got this game is to troll Regill. He totally deserves it. Trickster trolls Regill so well that the PC's actions end up completely curing Regil's Bleaching out of sheer /shock/ over what the PC did, and Regill immediately dedicates the rest of his life to desperately unfucking what the PC did.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:27
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Regill really suffers from the developers conflating law with being a horrible authoritarian jackass so hard, IMO. He'd be a lot more palatable if you could actually push back against his bullshit without the game forcing him to be in the right, but as is he's basically just a Hulrun that you're supposed to like and agree with for some reason. It also means that he doesn't really get a character arc or any serious development, even the Trickster stuff is mostly restricted to the ending slides.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:32
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Rorahusky posted:Trickster trolls Regill so well that the PC's actions end up completely curing Regil's Bleaching out of sheer /shock/ over what the PC did, and Regill immediately dedicates the rest of his life to desperately unfucking what the PC did. most of Trickster ends up falling flat. demonstrating that everything Regill has ever believed in was a pointless lie is quite satisfying.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:36
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Rorahusky posted:Trickster trolls Regill so well that the PC's actions end up completely curing Regil's Bleaching out of sheer /shock/ over what the PC did, and Regill immediately dedicates the rest of his life to desperately unfucking what the PC did. Regil gets some awesome endings on many Mythic Paths. I will mention them when we get there. Patience, spoilers.  Hope Cyth does his entire questline.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:43
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I will run my LP as I see fit. The way you keep posting, Achtung, you seem like you want to start your own LP. By all means, start your own.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:54
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Cythereal posted:I will run my LP as I see fit. Maybe when you're done. Wouldn't want to compete. And I'll do a different Mythic Path. Have to think about which one is best.
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Apr 21, 2024 23:01
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Then please stop posting about how you'd do my LP.
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Apr 21, 2024 23:03
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Cythereal posted:Regill is proof that quite a lot of reasonable people are in fact perfectly willing to sign on with fascists when sufficiently scared, because he's one of the more popular characters in this game. I mean, you can like a character without endorsing their entire ideology in real life. Anyway, it's pretty funny watching fandom making mental gymnastic about how Regil is not really a fascist despite him literally talking about "final solution" in one of the endings. Szarrukin fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 23:03
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Cythereal posted:Then please stop posting about how you'd do my LP. That wasn’t what I was trying to… fine. Thank you. Seriously, I was trying to encourage you, not talk over you. Regil is a fascist, no mistake. But he is status quo over taking over, and that makes him tolerable in some ways. achtungnight fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 23:08
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I'd think there's some small part of it highlighting the usual response of someone that has extreme beliefs being faced with being wrong. He'll explain and try to justify his actions ad infinitum. Because the uncomfortable thought that all their cruelty and misery really had no point at all. To entertain that would hollow a good number of people, even it was worn down to a basic 'im just protecting myself' complaint. Of course, That's almost certainly not the intent with the dialogue. But it did make me think of it watching him try to justify his BS.
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Apr 21, 2024 23:11
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Regil works because he's a gnome hellknight, which is a ludicrous concept on its face. The race that literally dies of boredom becoming a member of the biggest sticks in the mud. If he''s generic human fascist, eh Same thing mechanically. Some jank is expected because, again, gnome hellkinght
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Apr 21, 2024 23:39
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Regil as a character wouldn't work nearly as good if he was any other race.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:13
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Yeah, Regill wouldn't work if he were an ordinary race. Gnomes suffer from the Bleaching and battle it by learning more skills and knowledge, instead he's battling it by getting really good at fighting Demons. As stated earlier, a Trickster can troll him so hard that it undoes the bleaching when it should be impossible to undo. If he were just a human or an elf then he wouldn't have that aspect, he'd just be a fascist.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:57
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Regill is a fun character who is a terrible person. The big thing is, Regill is a true believer in the war against the demons, and that means he gives you more leeway then anyone else - meaning, you can happily ignore all his advice, save that one time he recommends you hire archers who aim. Regill fails and succeeds entirely based on how much the setting is bending over backwards to try and salvage his HARD MAN MAKING HARD CHOICES bullshit. Unfortunately, his introduction suffers from it the most. Outside of the introduction, he's a character archtype who isn't played as dead on as Regill is, which makes him stand out, which is, I think, why so many people are interested in him - that, and a sad tendency for people to fall victim to fascist outlooks. With Regill comes the Hellknight troop. We get a bunch of them for free, an easy way to grab more for mostly free, and they're a mercenary figure who wlil come up a lot early on, when the mercenary pool is small. They're good for when you get them? Mostly they're good because they're easy and often cheap when not free. They lean more on the defensive side, and get left behind offensively as the game goes on, but in the early game, they give you more time to Scorching Ray enemies. Regill himself is a hilarious mess of a character, mechanically speaking. It's clear they were trying to wed two very different ideas together; the Fighter and Hellknight in particular rewards a low dex, heavy strength approach, and the gnomish hooked hammer is the opposite of all those things. The end result dosen't work, and you're left with a character who will basically never be better then any other character you could bring with. With Regill comes the Hellknights as an idea. It's been mentioned before, and will come up again, though never said outright, but Hellknights have been subverting the crusade more and more to their command and are moving to diplomatically take over the region. And hey, that's fun, it's an attempt to show the slow poison of fascism. There's even a few more overt signs later that the hellknights' presence is hurting the Crusade. We'll get more into this when we hit Chapter 3 and see Regil's astonishingly bad ideas on how to conduct this war.
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Apr 22, 2024 01:01
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ProfessorCirno posted:Regill himself is a hilarious mess of a character, mechanically speaking. It's clear they were trying to wed two very different ideas together; the Fighter and Hellknight in particular rewards a low dex, heavy strength approach, and the gnomish hooked hammer is the opposite of all those things. The end result dosen't work, and you're left with a character who will basically never be better then any other character you could bring with. There's a reason why a popular build is to immediately turn Regill into a Sohei monk since they're weapon based monks mounted on horses so you can just take his hooked hammer specialisations and roll from there.
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Apr 22, 2024 01:06
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A gnomish fighter specializing in a janky weapon is a fun character idea. Too bad about everything else about him.
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Apr 22, 2024 02:35
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Yeah, Regill's intro is pretty heavy handed, but just like Daeran, the game isn't very precious with him after this. It's also just interesting to see more characters that aren't all hunky dorie with the good MC but still have very good reasons for going along with the crusade. Mechanically... Well ... They can't all be winners. Rorahusky posted:Trickster trolls Regill so well that the PC's actions end up completely curing Regil's Bleaching out of sheer /shock/ over what the PC did, and Regill immediately dedicates the rest of his life to desperately unfucking what the PC did. Unironically the best part of the trickster ending is trolling Regill so hard that he has a better, longer life and will spend all of it trying to make you pay.
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Apr 22, 2024 04:09
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Cythereal posted:I will run my LP as I see fit. Maybe you could make a list of approved topics and opinions.
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Apr 22, 2024 04:37
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Guildenstern Mother posted:Maybe you could make a list of approved topics and opinions. "no backseating other people's LPs" seems to be pretty reasonable rule.
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Apr 22, 2024 05:51
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Regill is probably my least favorite Evil party member among all we've seen so far.
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Apr 22, 2024 05:53
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Kanthulhu posted:A gnomish fighter specializing in a janky weapon is a fun character idea. Too bad about everything else about him. Gnome hooked hammer is probably the least janky cultural weapon they could have given him. It's just a double weapon with differing ends. They could have given him the battle ladder, piston maul (a hammer that uses a thunderstone to clap the piston and make it hit harder), or the ripsaw glaive (Regill is unironically the one character I could see using a chain-glaive).
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Apr 22, 2024 06:25
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At least the devs were kind enough to leave a bunch of hooked hammers around for Regill to use.
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Apr 22, 2024 07:18
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Guildenstern Mother posted:Maybe you could make a list of approved topics and opinions. I mean, we have a pretty good guide to that I think. Ah yes, here it is. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4053947&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
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Apr 22, 2024 07:30
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Regill is probably my least favorite Evil party member among all we've seen so far. Funny, because I just wanted to say that of all evil party members we've met so far, Regil is definitely my favourite when it comes to character creation and writing. Camelia is outright boring and while Daeran is well written, "sociopathic hedonist with dark secret" is much less original archetype than "gnome fascist who is literally too stubborn to die and can be trolled endlessly by Trickster PC"
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Apr 22, 2024 07:46
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RelentlessImp posted:Gnome hooked hammer is probably the least janky cultural weapon they could have given him. It's just a double weapon with differing ends. They could have given him the battle ladder, piston maul (a hammer that uses a thunderstone to clap the piston and make it hit harder), or the ripsaw glaive (Regill is unironically the one character I could see using a chain-glaive). Those are very cool, thanks. If I ever play tabletop pathfinder I'm doing a "gnomish weapon master" that only uses weird rear end weapons and looks down on people that wield swords or axes as simpletons. Can't wait to spend a million feats on exotic weapon proficiencies.
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Apr 22, 2024 11:14
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Guildenstern Mother posted:Maybe you could make a list of approved topics and opinions. Szarrukin posted:"no backseating other people's LPs" seems to be pretty reasonable rule. I haven't asked Achtungnight to outright stop posting in this thread like I did in my last LP, but yeah.
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Apr 22, 2024 11:56
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Ah, my favorite pint-sized martinet, Regill. Like so many others have already said, I think he's interesting as a character, but his ideology is utterly repulsive, and qualifies him to be thrown head first into a river in full armor at the earliest opportunity. The "hard men" bullshit has been gone over enough, but I honestly think that it is possible to read Regil and the Hellknights as a subversion of that whole idea; After all, everything they do in the name of being the "hard people making the tough decisions" ends up unequivocally failing spectacularly and leaving them worse off than before, as shown off in this mission and every time they show up in the story from now on. And Regill is - apparently - the most competent guy these people have on the spot. This is literally the best the Hellknights can do, and it's an absolute shower.That, and the fact that I can then feed the bastards directly into the front-lines with the attendant casualties that implies, means that I end up rescuing Regill just about every time. Unfortunately, for much the same reason that you can't make an anti-war movie, you can't have a character like Regill in any media without a sizeable group of the objectively worst people in the world completely missing the point and going "But he's so coooooooool/badass/willing to make the tough decisions!!" When he's a literally a fascist gnome! He's three feet tall and wearing spiky armor! He's a fascist hedgehog! He's not cool or badass, he's sad - at best - and ridiculous at worst. No-one ought to be able to take him seriously on that basis alone, and it mystifies me that people apparently do. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 12:57
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