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Hunter Noventa
Apr 21, 2010

idonotlikepeas posted:

Yeah, for people not familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder swarms, the way they work is that they're immune to things that target individuals, which includes a bunch of spells, but also normal weapon attacks. This does make some kind of sense; waving a sword through a cloud of flies is not going to be as effective as you might hope. They also attack by entering their opponent's space and crawling all over them, so if you want to use AoE attacks to nuke them, you're also potentially hitting your own people. The best way of dealing with them is weapons that do energy damage, since the energy damage works normally and they don't tend to have a ton of HP. Of course, the early encounter in Kingmaker comes when the only weapon you have that's capable of doing energy damage is an everburning torch, which a) does almost no damage and b) is in extremely limited supply at that point. Your casters can use cantrips, but cantrips in this version are jokes damagewise outside of certain special situations. So it's very easy to get your entire party killed by tiny spiders, especially if you weren't expecting to run into them and didn't prepare appropriately. (Getting some AoE consumables can help, for instance.)

Yeah, swarms are the worst and I've seen some pretty nasty ones playing Pathfinder.

PF2e fixed that thankfully.

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Kanthulhu
Apr 8, 2009
NO ONE SPOIL GAME OF THRONES FOR ME!

IF SOMEONE TELLS ME THAT OBERYN MARTELL AND THE MOUNTAIN DIE THIS SEASON, I'M GOING TO BE PISSED.

BUT NOT HALF AS PISSED AS I'D BE IF SOMEONE WERE TO SPOIL VARYS KILLING A LANISTER!!!


(Dany shits in a field)

AJ_Impy posted:

There is a way to get cute with it:

The crusade damage triggers on the loot windows closing or being emptied. So, you can open the loot window, take all but the one cheapest bit of vendor chaff, quicksave, and quickload. A loaded game doesn’t start with loot windows open, but the loot window was never closed so the trigger never occurs.

Wow, that map is very buggy! :dumbrim:

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!

Hunter Noventa posted:

Yeah, swarms are the worst and I've seen some pretty nasty ones playing Pathfinder.

PF2e fixed that thankfully.

In the tabletop, beating them to death with torches is the low level strat, but you rarely need a torch in CRPGs, so swarms can wall parties that don't have AOE spells.

Capfalcon fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 25, 2024

Fat Samurai
Feb 16, 2011

To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

idonotlikepeas posted:

Yeah, for people not familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder swarms, the way they work is that they're immune to things that target individuals, which includes a bunch of spells, but also normal weapon attacks. This does make some kind of sense; waving a sword through a cloud of flies is not going to be as effective as you might hope. They also attack by entering their opponent's space and crawling all over them, so if you want to use AoE attacks to nuke them, you're also potentially hitting your own people. The best way of dealing with them is weapons that do energy damage, since the energy damage works normally and they don't tend to have a ton of HP. Of course, the early encounter in Kingmaker comes when the only weapon you have that's capable of doing energy damage is an everburning torch, which a) does almost no damage and b) is in extremely limited supply at that point. Your casters can use cantrips, but cantrips in this version are jokes damagewise outside of certain special situations. So it's very easy to get your entire party killed by tiny spiders, especially if you weren't expecting to run into them and didn't prepare appropriately. (Getting some AoE consumables can help, for instance.)

I think the NPC that sends you to the swarms location in the previous game warns you about swarms and hands you some AoE fire bombs, but certainly not enough for the job.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!
He does do both of those things now. But he didn't used to; in the earlier versions of the game, all he told you is that the cave he was sending you to was overrun by spiders. He will definitely sell you some throwable flasks, but you have to know to buy them. (I think it's literally the first sidequest you can get, too.) Owlcat changed the set up specifically because of how many people (justifiably) complained about this, and also literally added a pop-up in the game warning you about swarms and a loading screen tip telling you that you can use torches against them.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

idonotlikepeas posted:

Yeah, for people not familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder swarms, the way they work is that they're immune to things that target individuals, which includes a bunch of spells, but also normal weapon attacks.

Note that immunity to weapon attack damage is specifically swarms made up of diminutive and fine creatures (i.e. spider/mandragora/vescavor swarms). Swarms made up of larger creatures (i.e. rat swarms) can still be hurt with normal weapons, albeit slashing/piercing damage is halved. That's one reason why the first few swarms you run into in Wrath are nowhere near the pain they are in Kingmaker. Vescavor Swarms are far enough in that they can at least be dealt with at this point with AoE spells, though as mentioned they bring their own "fun" to the party.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
To answer a question I got on discord:

There's two more 'regular' companions in the game (plus the DLC dude I won't be showing). A few mythic paths have one or more companions unique to that path, if you romance Galfrey you'll get her in the party very late in the game, a few things like that.

Wrath does a pretty good job of front-loading the majority of the cast into the prologue and first chapter, you get Sosiel as soon as you enter the second act, and if you make a beeline for the river you can pick up Regill pretty fast if you so desire.

There's only two mainstream companions who join relatively late compared to their peers, so for those playing along at home or thinking of playing, take that into account when considering your PC and companion builds.

Rogue AI Goddess
May 10, 2012

I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.
That was a joke... unless..?
"They tried and learned that swarms don't work that way" is a fitting epitaph for many in the aforementioned late game path.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




quote:

By the way, there's an [Evil] response to the no-losses dialogue, and it's asserting that the crusade is your most powerful weapon and you won't sacrifice it for mere trinkets.

There's probably some context missing, but while crass, it doesn't really strike me as evil

Szarrukin
Sep 29, 2021

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

There's probably some context missing, but while crass, it doesn't really strike me as evil

I guess it's about "crusaders are tools, not people" mentality.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

There's probably some context missing, but while crass, it doesn't really strike me as evil

"alignment was a poorly conceived and implemented mechanic" sums up almost all alignment discussions

depending on the writer and scenario, all of good, evil, law, and chaos whipsaw wildly between "being stupidly self-indulgent" and "being stupidly self-sacrificing." you weren't willing to sacrifice a bunch of dudes because you might need them later? clearly evil behavior. also good behavior. also lawful behavior. also chaotic behavior.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

There's probably some context missing, but while crass, it doesn't really strike me as evil

I think they just wanted to have an Evil tagged option to justify why you chose to sacrifice the chance at loot to save your army. The Lawful option emphasizes that you were given command of this army in trust by Queen Galfrey and take that responsibility seriously, the Chaotic option is "lol I wanted to fight the big bug, who cares about loot."

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Cythereal posted:

Sosiel works because he's the one equipped to actually deal with the constant low-level damage the swarms inflict on the crusade, heal tanking his way through the fight.

As anyone who has played an MMO can tell you, a good healer covers a multitude of sins.

Seems like you'll never escape WoW :v:

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

CommissarMega posted:

Seems like you'll never escape WoW :v:

I still play a fair amount of Star Trek Online and Star Wars: The Old Republic. :)

It's WoW and FF14 that drove me away, probably never to return unless there are drastic changes.

Szarrukin
Sep 29, 2021

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

"alignment was a poorly conceived and implemented mechanic" sums up almost all alignment discussions

depending on the writer and scenario, all of good, evil, law, and chaos whipsaw wildly between "being stupidly self-indulgent" and "being stupidly self-sacrificing." you weren't willing to sacrifice a bunch of dudes because you might need them later? clearly evil behavior. also good behavior. also lawful behavior. also chaotic behavior.

It is especially noticeable in Owlcat's writing of Lawful Good characters and dialogue lines, which varies wildly from "stern but still good" to "literally fascism". I've already mentioned one example from Kingmaker where lawful good and chaotic evil options were basically the same "I'll kill you because you are greenskins" the only difference being lawful one had more flowery words and racist justification.

achtungnight
Oct 5, 2014
I get my fun here. Enjoy!
Why couldn’t you say “I’ll kill you because you tried to kill me and unlike Nok-Nok the good green-skinned guy here, you’ll try again if I don’t stop you now” and leave racism out of it?

That would be my stance. What’s the alignment for that?

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

Szarrukin posted:

It is especially noticeable in Owlcat's writing of Lawful Good characters and dialogue lines, which varies wildly from "stern but still good" to "literally fascism". I've already mentioned one example from Kingmaker where lawful good and chaotic evil options were basically the same "I'll kill you because you are greenskins" the only difference being lawful one had more flowery words and racist justification.

Honestly it's a problem with the writing of lawful good characters in general. Goblins are always evil therefore it's fine for the lawful good character to assume the very worst of an entire species and slaughter entire clans because gently caress em.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

achtungnight posted:

Why couldn’t you say “I’ll kill you because you tried to kill me and unlike Nok-Nok the good green-skinned guy here, you’ll try again if I don’t stop you now” and leave racism out of it?

That would be my stance. What’s the alignment for that?

you are looking for any of the Obsidian rpgs from New Vegas onwards, where alignment is a matter of reputation tracked individually among factions and not a cosmic ledger of Good/Bad Guy Points.

Owlcat wise, Rogue Trader -slightly- improves on this, in that instead of the 2-axis 3x3 matrix of Good/Bad Guy Points there are tree types of Alignment Points you can get for doing stuff: Insane Theocratic Fascist, Insane Demon Worshipping Cultist, and Trying Very Hard To Be Decent In A Universe That Fights Your Efforts At Every Turn. this at least results in a less confused mess than "look, the character sheet says I'm lawful good, I just killed that truckful of puppies that one time"

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

you are looking for any of the Obsidian rpgs from New Vegas onwards, where alignment is a matter of reputation tracked individually among factions and not a cosmic ledger of Good/Bad Guy Points.

IIRC Fallout 1 and 2 also did something like this, though it's been a while since I played them so I might be misremembering.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
For me, the tricky part about alignment comes down to the fundamental problem that different people can have very different ideas of what good and evil, right and wrong, even are.

I've quit more than one game because the game was playing happy, triumphant music when I was staring at the screen feeling like evil had prevailed, and it baffled and angered me that the game was acting like I should be happy. Also book and movie equivalents.

I've realized of course that this is no doubt to some extent due to me being neurodivergent and thus have undoubtedly reacted to the story pretty off-kilter from what was intended even before more mundane differences of values and opinions, but it is a real phenomenon.

I'm prone to quitting games and series when I feel like there's no one to root for and no way for me to feel like I'm playing a good person fighting for something good.

Thing is, that's all down to me personally as an individual, and I think it's safe to say that I'm stranger than most. The majority of people probably don't share my feelings for the most part, and that's perfectly fine. But it does speak to difficulties inherent in narrative writing.

Wrath's writing, fortunately, has enough that I do sincerely enjoy to make me overlook what I don't, and there's some very strong reasons why this LP is going down the mythic path that it is (even if we haven't seen a peep about the Azata since the out of body music trip).

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe
Yeah Wrath I'd call a game of highs and lows and the highs really do hit high when you reach them, especially on the Azata path.

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


Cythereal posted:

I've quit more than one game because the game was playing happy, triumphant music when I was staring at the screen feeling like evil had prevailed, and it baffled and angered me that the game was acting like I should be happy. Also book and movie equivalents.

I admit I'm curious. Which game(s)?

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Quackles posted:

I admit I'm curious. Which game(s)?

I'd prefer to not risk starting those arguments in this thread, thanks. :v:

BisbyWorl
Jan 12, 2019

Knowledge is pain plus observation.


Cythereal posted:

I'd prefer to not risk starting those arguments in this thread, thanks. :v:

Ah, Three Houses. :v:

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

BisbyWorl posted:

Ah, Three Houses. :v:

Among other things.

But yes, tempting as though Fire Emblem: Three Hopes is to LP, I am not inviting that particular clusterfuck down on myself, not now and not ever.

There are a few games I'd like to LP, but will not because I'm afraid of the community and that game is one of them. :v:

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 27, 2024

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Hide and Seek



Today we're picking up where we left off. This cave under Leper's Smile is optional, but it's well worth doing.



It's filled with more vescavors.



There are two main areas to the cave, left and right, separated by this branch here.



The corpse at the dividing point clues you in on what happened. If you remember the Tower of Estrod, the museum back in Kenabres, it had already been looted by a gang of thieves by the time Yua got there.

Karma, it appears, was hard at work.



Just as well I held off buying that fancy sword for Seelah, there's a random sword sticking out of a bug corpse here that turns out to be a longsword +2. Almost as good, and Radiance goes in the bag until I can upgrade it.




Derakni are new. IIRC, they're supposed to be the countless offspring of Deskari himself, fully fledged locust demons.



Arachnophobes in the audience, skip the next few images.



The war in the Worldwound never failed to surprise me. I never would have put 'giant mechanical spider' on my dance card, and to this day I'm still not entirely sure where it came from or what it was doing here. Something to do with the tech weirdos to the south, perhaps. I've never met anyone from Numeria I'd call normal.



It might have been challenging had it gotten to do anything. Sosiel's mammoth knocked it on its rear end, and every time it tried to stand up it ate a bunch of attacks of opportunity and got knocked down again.

This is why trip attack spam, found mainly but not exclusively on pets, is such a strong tactic. It drops a nice dagger.



The other thing of note in this part of the caves are a couple of vrocks, big bird-like demons.



Heading back to the other side of the caves, the bandit's letter suggested undead problems and indeed here they are.



Yua gets a new belt.

A friend of mine commented on Yua's human form when I was making this update, and yeah it's true I'm one of those people who tends to make the same character in every game if it allows. When the land is in peril, look for a sarcastic redhead lesbian, probably a ranger or local equivalent.



Harkel here is the boss of the area.



If you don't notice this interactable object (you might recall this from the Tower of Estrod exhibits, Zacharius was a powerful mage who died during the Fourth Crusade) during the fight, what happens next can be very frustrating.



Take down all the wights, and the wand emits a pulse of necromantic energy, raising Harkel and his flunkies anew. And it will keep doing this until you click on the wand. The moment you do, the lich mythic theme starts playing.



(Reach out your mind and touch the power that's hiding within the wand)
(Your hand clenches the wand harder and harder, like it's closing around the throat of an enemy. Suddenly, the darkness lurking within the wand emerges and seizes your hand. It crawls through your eyes and deep into your mind.)
:silent: (A spark flares in the darkness. It's a firefly, held gently in the hands of a young mage. Its light barely diminishes the gloom, but it's enough to see the stone walls of a dungeon. There are several others — young and battered wizard crusaders holding magic wands, all showing signs of recent battle. You hear a rumble from above, followed by a furious demon shriek. The mages rise, preparing for another fight. A tall figure arises before them. "Master Zacharius! You're alive!" The mage towering over his apprentices is pale, and his clothes are covered in blood. His voice is dull and dispassionate. "The Newfound Sanctuary has fallen. You have fulfilled your duty. Now leave. This is my battle, not yours. Teldon…" The apprentices, baffled, turn around to the young man holding the firefly. "Today I die and leave my friends. Take my wand and deliver it to Kenabres. In the hour of greatest need, let a worthy crusader return it to me. I will know that my brothers need me, and I will rise to their aid. Even death will not stand in my way.")
(Hide the wand in a bag)
:silent: (The green light fades as quickly as it arose. The choir of the dead quiet their howls. The power slips away, even as every part of your body protests against it. You vividly realize how fragile and fickle mortal flesh is.)

As the soundtrack hints, this is the first step towards unlocking the Lich mythic path, which you can progress by either setting the entity within the wand free or simply keeping it. We met Teldon back at the Tower of Estrod, he was the senile - and badly traumatized - curator and former apprentice of Zacharius, one of the greatest mages who ever served the crusades. And, it should be clear now, was not a wholesome sort of mage.

In a normal playthrough I'd destroy the wand, which ends the lich questline before it can properly begin, but I'll keep it so I can show y'all what happens with this next.



As a matter of fact, all the artifacts from the Tower museum are in this camp. The other important one besides the wand is Terendelev's claw, which you want to keep along with her scales from the prologue for purposes much later in the game. There's also the Hellknight helmet and urn of oil, which I take but don't know what they're for if anything.



And with that, we are done with Leper's Smile.



"It's a miracle that we lost so few back there. The soldiers realize that if you'd made the wrong decision, half the army wouldn't have made it out. They're scared, they're scared things are only going to get nastier from here. What if we... held a wake? Lit up the bonfires, poured some wine, raised our cups in memory of the fallen? It'd do the troops a world of good."
"We'll commemorate the fallen. Give the soldiers some wine, but not enough to get them smashed."
"Never, Commander! Everything will be proper, solemn, and with due respect for the fallen. We're mourning the dead, not celebrating a wedding."

Garms is the only one in camp with any particular reaction to Leper's Smile. At least at first...



Remember Anevia's suspicion that this was a trap? Go into Nurah's tent after Leper's Smile and look for a tiny clickable object.



I'm a kitsune, I'm used to pungent perfumes that barbarians find repellant, but this was something else entirely.



"When we fought the swarm of vescavors, someone put a handkerchief soaked with pheromones in my pocket, which attracted the insects. I found a vial of the same pheromones in your tent."
(Nurah's cheeks blush a little.) "That's... my perfume. Perhaps it's strange to take perfume on a crusade, but... You see, Knight Commander, it is my reminder of a more normal, peaceful life. What I'll go back to after we've won. And besides..." (Her cheeks blush even more, and her voice drops to a whisper,,) "The smell drives men insane! I have no idea how this smell affects infernal insects. I'm a historian, not a demonologist! Perhaps some malicious person used my perfume to lure the vescavors to you — but I swear it wasn't me! Maybe..." (Nurah again lowers her voice to a whisper.) "Maybe one of my admirers is trying to hurt you and set me up?"

I can't say it was a compelling argument, but I don't know much about the amorous habits of men so I let the subject drop for the time being. In hindsight, perhaps I should have consulted with Daeran or Sosiel.




"Of course!" (Ember whispers a spell and touches the bloody bandages.)
:hist101: "Thank you! That's so much better!" (The soldier rips off the blood-caked rags, and strokes the healthy skin underneath them.) "How old are you? You're only a child! I have a granddaughter at home — just like you! Oh, little girl, how did you end up here? What are you doing here in the thick of it with us?"
(Ember gives him a lighthearted smile.) "I'm just like you. I came to the thick, so that the thick wouldn't come to the other kids. Like your granddaughter!"
:hist101: "Well, I'll be! So little, and yet more courage than some officers..." (The old man runs his rough hand over her hair, and she smiles at him again. The crow on her shoulder rubs its head on his hand like a cat.) "Talking to you takes a load off my mind. I reckon it's not just my arm you healed."
(The soldier leaves, shaking his head pensively. Ember waves happily, then turns around and notices you.) "Hi!"
"Do they often come to you for help like this?"

This is the beginning of Ember's subplot. You can either encourage her, admonish her to be more careful and you can't save everyone, or be an rear end in a top hat. The middle approach, if you consistently take them, will eventually push her into Lawful Good alignment and give her a new magical firestorm spell reflecting her coming fully in line with her divine patron's teachings and doctrine.



"But you know... it's surprising. So many soldiers come to me. They say I bring them comfort, that I give them strength. But I don't do anything like that at all! I only talk to them nicely. I'm just a featherbrained little girl! What if something I say is wrong? Maybe I should keep quiet. But I can tell that my words make them feel better... I guess I'm confused."
"Don't second guess yourself. You're helping all of us - the soldiers, our companions, even me."
"You think so? I think I'm just wandering around saying silly things..." (She taps a scarred finger on her cheek, and then breaks into a smile.) "All right! It must be true if you say so!"

Katarina told me the next morning that she had a dream of Ember walking through a dark place, holding a torch. Honestly, Desna didn't need to send the confirmation that the girl was special. I saw Ember plead for the life of the man who killed her parents and tried to kill her. The girl was, in her way, as unnerving and unnatural as anything else in the Worldwound. A good kind of unnerving.

The Crimson Path (this update)

Derakni 2
Hunter Retriever 1
Vescavor Royal Guards 1
Vescavor Swarms 9
Vrocks 2
Wights 11

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

Cythereal posted:


Arachnophobes in the audience, skip the next few images.



The war in the Worldwound never failed to surprise me. I never would have put 'giant mechanical spider' on my dance card, and to this day I'm still not entirely sure where it came from or what it was doing here. Something to do with the tech weirdos to the south, perhaps. I've never met anyone from Numeria I'd call normal.



It might have been challenging had it gotten to do anything. Sosiel's mammoth knocked it on its rear end, and every time it tried to stand up it ate a bunch of attacks of opportunity and got knocked down again.

This is why trip attack spam, found mainly but not exclusively on pets, is such a strong tactic. It drops a nice dagger.

Nah, nothing to do with Numeria. Just something created in the Abyss to be utterly loyal to its creator and enforce its will - particularly in tracking down and "retrieving" something or someone. Also, I'm pretty sure Story removes its nastiest ability (not that 5 reasonably accurate, high damage attacks a round aren't bad enough), which is that it gets a free ray attack each round, with four choices it cycles through... and one of those choices is a petrification ray (the others are all merely a whole bunch of elemental damage of one type or another).

You don't have a chance in hell of tripping a Retriever on harder difficulty settings at this point, as its CMD in general, and particularly vs. Trip (you get bonuses for extra legs), is incredibly high.

achtungnight
Oct 5, 2014
I get my fun here. Enjoy!
New Demons-

Derakni- Giant man-faced locust demons originally described in the Christian Bible’s Book of Revelations. Like Cythreal mentioned, they’re specifically minions of Deskari and may be his offspring originally. They have confusion and other nasty spells- thus, they should be priority targets in battle.

Retriever- Mechanical spiders constructed in the Abyss as special fetch tools. Damage sponges with heavy damage potential. Originally a D&D monster.

Vrocks- Rage demons, vulture-featured humanoids. They can screech to stun or confuse, expel disease spores, defend themselves with mirror image, attack several times a round… we could have fought one back in Kenabres Market Square if we’d summoned it in one of the houses. They’re a bit more manageable at this level.

You definitely don’t want to fight the undead boss of this area on autopilot- AI characters won’t automatically grab the wand and the enemy keeps coming back from death until you deal with the wand.

Ember’s a sweet kid. Being mean to her earns no reward.

achtungnight fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Apr 28, 2024

ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!
I always end up pushing Ember towards Good over Law. The setting has enough crusaders.

The Derakni are, I find, funny enough, less of a threat then the actual little swarms. They're big enough to hit. And the swarms come in groups, with each one pulsing it's confusion aura.

Retrievers though? This one is what I found to be the actual regional "boss," not the wraiths. Its rays are no joke, and as mentioned before, it's more or less trip immune. The good news is that it doesn't have the highest defenses, so it's possible for you to just burst it down as hard as you can from turn one, assuming you're going in fully buffed. Which you probably aren't, because the act of opening that passage takes two hours, which is likely long enough to remove all your buffs.

Vrocks here are interesting. The one back in Kenabres was basically a regional boss in of itself; it would stun your whole party, had an instant cast mirror image which did a lot to blunt your attacks, and had a damage aura that could stack up. By here they send three at you, and those three might seem like they're the same difficulty as the one was earlier, but are likely going to feel a lot easier despite being three. It always makes me feel like I've gotten substantially stronger since the last go.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

The coolest vrock ability, which sadly isn't in the game, is their Dance of Ruin. Where they take three full-round actions, during which they can do nothing else other than dance and chant, and at the end of which blast everything in a 100' radius for middling lightning damage. But multiple vrocks can dance together at the same time to jack that damage up (and its accompanying save) to very high numbers - capping at 20d6 with four vrocks dancing. Any interruptions to any vrock involved in the same dance cancels it though and it has to be restarted.

This is hilariously impractical to realistically set up vs. PCs for obvious reasons even for experienced DMs - and isn't even particularly great against PCs at the level where you'd be running into a whole group of vrocks anyways - but it can certainly make a cool set piece if you can structure it in a manner that isn't just a direct "go kill the vrocks."

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

Vrock's are basically only threatening when you fight the optional one in Kenabres, by now you're buff enough to reliably hit and the saving throw required on their screech is pretty reasonable.

Retrievers are pretty nasty because of their free instant cast ray so they're one of the few monsters that will threaten petrification. Their AC isn't amazing though so you can pretty reliably take it down in two to three rounds.


Derakni are more obnoxious than dangerous in my opinion,

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Clarifying another question I got on discord: no, there's nothing further you can do with Nurah right now. Finding the perfume and talking to her about it sets a flag for the future, but for the time being that's it.

SettingSun
Aug 10, 2013

*Actively tying a noose and suspending it from a gallows*

Ah, no, this is just art don't worry about it you're perfectly safe

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
You'd really think you'd at least be able to tell Aneiva "Yo keep a close eye on Nurah," but no.

Poil
Mar 17, 2007

Well she clearly passed her bluff check so obviously you cannot suspect her of anything.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!
I mean, it's not really a lot of evidence to go on, so you can understand why you might need to gather more to convince anybody to take action. It's not like you're completely surrounded by crazy people who would turn someone inside out and set them on fire based on the merest suspicion that they might have done something to aid the demons, even accidentally.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

It's the issue of trying to reward the player for taking the right skills and investigating a bit to start getting hints of who the traitor is, but not wanting to put in multiple instances of letting the player get rid of them. And unfortunately Owlcat isn't great at subtly hinting the matter (not helped by the nature of the game/dialogue structure - bar letting the player interact with literally EVERYTHING, which is a stupid amount of work, players will generally impart notable significance to what they are allowed to see after a skill check).

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Well, it's probably going to disappoint some people that I finally installed and used the toybox mod when working on the next update.

Scorching Ray on enemy generals is complete bullshit.

Boksi
Jan 11, 2016

Cythereal posted:

Well, it's probably going to disappoint some people that I finally installed and used the toybox mod when working on the next update.

Scorching Ray on enemy generals is complete bullshit.

The meta strategy solution to that is to send in a single, solitary unit to get instantly fried on the first turn, then repeating until the enemy general has no casts left. Then you move in your actual army and engage as usual. Which is just as unsatisfying as just installing Toybox anyway, and would absolutely not fit the narrative you're going for either. I don't think there's gonna be many people disappointed in you for installing Toybox anyway, this isn't some Unfair Last Azlanti No Mods challenge run.

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Drakenel
Dec 2, 2008

The glow is a guide, my friend. Though it falls to you to avert catastrophe, you will never fight alone.
Dunno who you think is going to be disappointed. Do whatever makes the game enjoyable and not frustrating. Most of us are here to see the narrative parts anyway.

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