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This was posted in the current events thread during the derail, and I think a lot of the disagreement comes down to this really.Rand Brittain posted:There are basically two broad models of what constitutes "right and wrong". If you believe that you should base your morality on consequences, you will come to a different conclusion than if you based your morality on actions. If you believe you could never be moral because you can't be moral and vote for someone who engaged in drone bombings, then voting for either candidate wouldn't work. If you believe morality is based on consequences, you will vote for the candidate who you think would minimize harm. I think the only way to really wash your hands of any responsibility for voting is to put yourself in a position where you cannot legally vote like committing a felony in a state where you can't get your rights to vote restored. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you feel about it, being born a citizen in a Democracy forces you to make the moral choice by default. How the person determines their moral principles is their own choice.
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Feb 14, 2024 15:48
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GlyphGryph posted:Some advice: You are focusing directly on the result of your vote as if you can determine what will happen. You can have an ok idea of what your vote will result in, but I don't think you can have enough knowledge to base your actions on hypothetical results. Its valid to not vote or do something based on an idea that you won't do that. I won't vote for someone supporting a genocide means I won't vote for either Biden or Trump. It also means I won't vote for most candidates running for president. My desired conclusion is no genocide, but I don't really have any influence on whether that happens with my vote.
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May 8, 2024 16:03
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GlyphGryph posted:I am not, there are plenty of coherent and reality based arguments to be made where that it is irrelevant. I just want people to offer them, preferably ones they actually believe. I'm arguing you can only really base your actions on principles. It's not about making myself feel better, it's the only way I can approach these issues in my mind. You can call me selfish, but I think that trying to determine the results of your vote is impossible to do with an accuracy that is useful. Since I can't do that, I have to have principles I will vote based on. What's incomplete about that thought? I don't think I can convince you to think my way. But I'm just telling you why you can't convince me to think your way either.
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May 8, 2024 16:29
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm absolutely open to principle based arguments (or at least I believe I am, maybe I've got a blind spot here though), but they aren't really that when there are no underlying principles being stated or argued from or connected to the conclusion, which seems to be what I'm seeing here? "I have decided this behaviour is bad and it is bad because I have decided that" sort of ex post "principle" is less an argument than an arbitrary whim. It's unrelated to the conclusion. I keep saying it because it's the core of my reasoning. I have decided voting for someone who supports a genocide is something I won't do. I could decide that arbitrarily, but I know about historic genocides and what they are, so it wasn't an arbitrary decision. Edit: The reason I think like this is I see the trolley problem or "lesser evil" discussions to be misleading. We don't have enough information on the future to know what our actions will result in, especially for large scale events like voting for president. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 16:53 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 16:49
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volts5000 posted:I am proud of my moral principles. I can look back and say "I did what I could" instead of "I didn't get my hands dirty". That's ok for me. I just can't understand any scenario where I would see Betsy DeVos revoke Title IX protections for LGBTQ+ and say "Well, I can take comfort in the fact that I didn't vote for Hillary". It seems from your posts you think that people who don't vote, me specifically because you quoted me in your longer post, think they are morally pure from their choices. That isn't the case; my hands are just as dirty. It is a system we were born into, and we cannot extricate ourselves from without blame. Not voting is the same as voting to me if you make the choice to not vote. A vote is a unique thing in my mind because I find it both incredibly important to perform but also meaningless on an individual level. It encompasses so many issues that our moral systems come into conflict. Moral systems that under most circumstances would lead us to the same conclusion, but not this time. The actual moral weight of a single vote is tiny compared to the thought we put into it. I cannot completely remove myself from consequentialist thought, I went into the primary with the intention of voting for Biden but voted for another candidate on the day of. I will vote in November and I'm going into it with the idea I won't vote for Biden based on what I've said and my previous actions in the primary this year. When I'm in the voting booth I don't know if it will hold up. The consequentialist view is understandable and convincing in its own way and a presidential vote has more value than a basically meaningless primary vote. I think that you can't remove yourself fully from basing your morality on not doing things because they are wrong too. It's harder to describe with voting, but something simple like drunk driving is an easy test. I don't think you would call a drunk driver more moral than a sober driver. Even if the sober driver got into an accident and nothing happened to the drunk driver. I don't disagree with you on other forms of direct action, they are important.
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May 10, 2024 18:41
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I do in vote every election including primary elections. I think it should be mandatory to at least cast a ballot, even if its blank. My point was that even though I find it meaningless there is part of me that feels compelled to vote. That doesn't translate directly to vote for Joe Biden though.
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May 10, 2024 19:52
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volts5000 posted:Why? What happens if you vote for Biden? He gets one more vote. I'm not sure what you are asking by the question.
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May 10, 2024 21:08
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volts5000 posted:You said that your feeling about Joe Biden doesn't compel you to vote for him. But what do you think would happen to you, or to society at large, if you did vote for him? Like, so what if he gets one more vote. What is the ultimate consequence if you spend 15 minutes to mark his name on a ballot? What I meant was I felt the compulsion to the act of voting, not the act of voting for a specific candidate. The consequences from that one vote would be tiny by itself.
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May 10, 2024 21:49
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