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Deified Data posted:Priority 1: Single shot This is going wrong because "prioritise" actions will still trigger if the specified target isn't available. You want "flying", not "prioritise flying", if your intention is to target the back unless there are flyers in the front. (keep track of which tactics are actually capable of resolving to no valid targets. if a tactic can't fail, all tactics beneath it are wasted)
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Apr 21, 2024 22:06
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Ahhh okay, that makes sense, thanks
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Apr 21, 2024 22:12
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Deified Data posted:Priority 1: Single shot I wish archers specifically had like 3 slots with an OR command so "fire at fliers/scouts/caster/backrow" wasn't such a pain in the rear end to script tbf though templates mean you only gotta do it once. except there's like 5 flavors of archer so
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Apr 21, 2024 22:15
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It would be nice if the game had some basic sanity checks on the tactics screen that told you "Hey, this tactic is never going to trigger with your current setup, are you sure this is what you want?" to help prevent situations like this.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:16
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There are a ton of things I think you should have been able to do with the tactics engine. I think you should be able to specify units by position, mostly for targeting buffs for your team but maybe also for some offensive purpose too. Either that or by name. Either of these would cause complications if you ever had to reorganise your unit but those would be the breaks. I think you should be able to react to the presence of individual classes as well as archer/scout/etc. A thing I ran into running a Trinity team is that I want a different opening action if either an owl or a featherbow is present. For that matter I'd love to be able to tell mages not to cast if an enemy is capable of using Reflect Magic but as far as I can tell there is no way to spell this out in tactics. I often have wanted to be able to identify when certain attacks would get kills and then go for them, eg with Swordmasters' Impale skill. Given that damage formulae are very simple I feel like this should be available as an option, and you can tweak if you want to try and account for evasion or guarding to still have some tactics. I also think you should be able to react to specific buffs or debuffs on yourself, especially for elves casting magic that uses faeries, but also if you want to have a Leaping Swordmaster. Honestly this kind of system is a hard design problem because you're making a scripting language, and those are kinda powerful concepts to play with, but you're also trying to keep it comprehensible for a mass audience. They always have to compromise for simplicity somewhere, and I always think they should have had a few more options. Either that or go full sicko and let me build state machines.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:54
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Yeah I think they did a good job but there's always gonna be potential improvements imo a way to make warriors getting mad happen all at once would be nice instead of having to watch each individual buff whenever I hit anything
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Apr 21, 2024 23:08
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Compared to more esoteric srpgs, I think they did a good job with the UI and most of the information there for you and you didn’t need to look up online how every single thing worked. Like there’s some common reoccurring questions here but most of everything is there for you
GateOfD fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 23:33
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I think a good chunk of the fun for me came from the balance of trying to make the teams do what you want without actually having the power to tell them precisely what you mean. The balance point will be a bit different for everyone, of course, but there being limits on what tactics you can set--that they didn't include everything you might possibly want--is an important part of the game, imo
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Apr 22, 2024 00:15
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True, working with the system on what you can and can’t control can be a purposeful choice as well
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Apr 22, 2024 00:23
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It's like I said; this thing is a scripting language and even the bluntest frameworks can be used to create surprisingly involved expressions if you take the time to understand how they work, especially if you lean into the additional logic of the default targeting (and what the default targeting will specifically refuse to do, letting you go further down the tactics list than might be obvious at a glance). You don't have to know what a disjunctive normal form is to play this game, but it helps. The game itself kinda sorta interprets a little as well, in that certain conditions might work differently for actives and passives, for the purposes of being able to express all tactics in the same language of action + condition + condition. This does mean that you can't do things like activate Magic Conferral when someone targets an armoured enemy, but also means you can define the things you can define without any additional tools. To be honest, I think I don't like the application of this system to passives, I think that specific extra logic is called for in certain cases. Mostly the things I would want to add are just other targeting options that would slot into the same menu spaces the stuff already in the game does.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:40
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Is the bonus damage from Magick Conferral calculated from the Magick Conferral user's stats, or the stats of the person actually attacking? It's just occurred to me I might have been using Yahna suboptimally this whole time.
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Apr 22, 2024 02:36
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cheetah7071 posted:I think a good chunk of the fun for me came from the balance of trying to make the teams do what you want without actually having the power to tell them precisely what you mean. The balance point will be a bit different for everyone, of course, but there being limits on what tactics you can set--that they didn't include everything you might possibly want--is an important part of the game, imo Yeah, letting you make a team that does exactly what you want in every possible situation is not actually the design goal here. Working around your limitations is part of the gameplay.
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Apr 22, 2024 02:47
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Clarste posted:Yeah, letting you make a team that does exactly what you want in every possible situation is not actually the design goal here. Working around your limitations is part of the gameplay. You're playing as a commander and strategist, not a micromanager. Tell your squads what they should be aiming for, send them out into the field, deal with the rest of the battle. Not like a Final Fantasy game where you are specifically in total control of every single action.
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Apr 22, 2024 03:15
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Cattail Prophet posted:Is the bonus damage from Magick Conferral calculated from the Magick Conferral user's stats, or the stats of the person actually attacking? It's just occurred to me I might have been using Yahna suboptimally this whole time. Did some testing to figure this out myself, and it appears to be the former. However, if there's a class based multiplier in play, i.e. cavalry attacking infantry or flier attacking cavalry, the extra potency from Magick Conferral also gets doubled, despite both the damage being from a different source and the UI specifically calling out that that multiplier only applies to physical damage. E: You can't exploit multihit attacks for a bunch of extra damage, though. It gets divided evenly across every hit, thay don't all get the full 50 potency. Cattail Prophet fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 03:51
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I like using conferral skills on swordmasters cause it's pretty easy to build them for 100% crit with an extra +50% or more crit damage
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Apr 22, 2024 03:53
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hello. enjoyed this game. bye
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Apr 22, 2024 14:45
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I feel like I'm having the issue that the game's story is so lackluster that it's kind of killing the enthusiasm to finish. The battle system is pretty well done, but because the main story is so simple, I'm not very driven to jump back into it. It's a mental hurdle I'll have to push past, I did spend a chunk of time on it before I stopped, but I'm only like 3/4 through elfland.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:45
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ApplesandOranges posted:... but I'm only like 3/4 through elfland. Without spoiling anything, you're right at the point where the game will reveal several important details about the overall plot over the next few missions. It's still going to be pretty simple and straightforward, though, so don't expect a bardic epic.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:35
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I don't disagree that there's a balance to be struck between exactly how precise and specific and exhaustive you can be in automating things and both comprehensibility to players and concessions to balance, like, it is right and good that certain teams generally be bad at dealing with certain circumstances and sometimes the game design solution is to let you also have other teams that are better at those things. Where there's a tension, however, is that eventually you run into this "they should know not to do that" problem, or even just "I should be able to tell them not to do that". Eventually there'll be a situation where the idea of you not being able to set specific contingencies strains credibility more than every member of your army being able to computationally run down this list of actions to take, and especially it seems to me like being able to spot a big flying shield guy or elves being aware of how many faeries they have feels like less of a stretch than being able to target the enemy with the highest magic defense or whatever. But also I think that if you're going to have a system like this, you should allow players willing to get nitpicky to their hearts' content.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:40
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make the same game but all the towns you restore are hella hosed up. call it unicorn groverlord
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Apr 22, 2024 15:42
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a game where your the bad guy and your the one that takes over all the continents and burn all the villages
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Apr 22, 2024 16:44
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xXUnikoRnLordXx
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Apr 22, 2024 16:53
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GateOfD posted:a game where your the bad guy and your the one that takes over all the continents and burn all the villages Reminds me of Ogre Battle 64 where you had to pay attention to an Alignment system and match your unit composition to the towns that you marched through. Are you a stupid kid and you put a Cleric in every single unit to heal? Enjoy the Bad Ending where the game tells you you burnt every single village because Cleric Alignment >> Evil Town Alignment.
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Apr 22, 2024 17:00
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Some kind of patch came out today, the day after I put the game down for the last time. I haven't seen any patch notes that aren't auto translated and the auto translations were quite unhelpful. Hopefully they at least changed the ability descriptions that say things that are literally wrong.
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Apr 22, 2024 20:21
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apparently they buffed virginia and swordmasters. Previously, only the stats from the best shield/sword applied (though you got the bonus effects from both). Now, you get full stats from the better one, and half stats from the worse one. So Virginia gets ~+3 def and +10% guard rate, and swordmasters get ~+10 atk
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Apr 22, 2024 20:27
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Is there a recommended guide to team composition? There's so many options that I wind up just throwing whatever together and playing. Everywhere I look it's either "the beauty is you can build everything yourself and everything works!" and "here are my 10 killer unit combinations" and not just some sort of guide on how to put together an effective team that's not AI generated garbage. I'm up to the Arena section, was playing it off and on but took a break and now there's just so much.. stuff (characters, equipment, skills, programming moves) that to even play I feel like I need to sit down and figure this all out first.
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Apr 22, 2024 20:28
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Verdugo posted:Is there a recommended guide to team composition? There's so many options that I wind up just throwing whatever together and playing. Everywhere I look it's either "the beauty is you can build everything yourself and everything works!" and "here are my 10 killer unit combinations" and not just some sort of guide on how to put together an effective team that's not AI generated garbage. What I found effective is to take inventory of all the limited "activates at start of battle" passives that I have access to, and build a unit based on maximizing the advantage conferred by each of the ones I like best. This naturally led me to one unit that did a quick-charged Trinity Rain, one with a quick-charged Glacial Rain, one based on getting Rosalinde to do her full faerie combo as soon as possible, and things like that.
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Apr 22, 2024 20:34
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space uncle posted:Reminds me of Ogre Battle 64 where you had to pay attention to an Alignment system and match your unit composition to the towns that you marched through. I honestly believe there was no way to do this legit without duping alignment items because it was so hard to match units against enemy units based on alignment, and then also worry about liberating/capturing towns. It's why I think the dupe glitch was purposefully left in, because it was so easy to do.
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Apr 22, 2024 20:55
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Here are version 1.04 patch notes.quote:Fixed a bug that could occur under certain conditions.
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Apr 22, 2024 21:09
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Unit comp is simple: all you have to do is develop a taste for and mastery over a subtle alchemy of purpose and application. Easy. Okay but seriously. There are three ways a character can help their unit: making large numbers come out of the other unit, increasing the size of the numbers other characters make come out of the other unit, and decreasing the size of the numbers the other unit makes come out of your unit. You can tune individual characters to one of these purposes and then throw some of each together into a unit and probably come up with something decent, and this is sufficient on the regular and even heightened difficulty so long as you also have enough units with different strengths and weaknesses that you can deal with the enemy's own variety. But where things really come together is when you start doing multiple of these purposes at the same time. Take the classic example of the cavalier, a class that effortlessly synergises with itself. Three cavaliers in a row together using Wild Rush and Cavalier Call over and over again immediately becomes a powerhouse because on every turn they do up to seven good things at once; damage to two enemies, stun to two enemies, and a compounding strength buff (+20% damage at a time) to three allies. Compounding strength buffs are very powerful because damage in this game works much like it does in Fire Emblem, where Your Strength minus Their Defence is the damage, so any increases to your strength are pure profit, higher starting strength multiplies the effect, and critical chance multiplies it even further, and cavaliers attacking infantry multiply it further still, so before long you can power straight through guarding armored enemies just by having higher numbers. Adding AP and PP to these guys also produces a compounding payoff; it's not just that they get to do a Second Thing, it's that the Second Thing is about 60% more effective than the First Thing, a second Second Thing is 80% more, and so on. You can tune the offensive in various ways but that's the core of it. Around this core you add other units that cover for various things that can go wrong. One general weakness your cavalier row will have is violence. If the enemy damage races you, they will probably take your cavaliers out before they can get fully onto their bullshit and just like your buffs compound, any early losses you take will also compound. So maybe you can put an armoured boy in front as both meat and metal shield. Or maybe you put the cavs up front and a healer in the back. Another specific weakness a cavalier row has is that they'll be carrying a giant glowing banner that says "attention enemy gryphon riders, please High Swing me" so maybe you make your backup an archer or shieldshooter focused on annihilating enemy fliers who are otherwise likely to dodge all those rushes. Or a witch to confer magick damage or truestrike. Or something. Use fun weapon effects and accessories to basically season to taste; if you have a hoplite up front he might appreciate someone with a first aid kit. The point is, you identify a core way to gently caress up the enemy and then support it. At high levels and max unit capacity you can make extremely generally capable units but even then, your units are always going to have weaknesses, so on top of maximising synergy in each unit you also want to make a point of diversifying weaknesses. Maybe nobody else can do as much damage as your cav unit but you can spread out enough anti flier measures to other units to make sure lots of the rest can at least win a fight against a team of flyers. Finally, tune your tactics to maximise impact. Cavaliers obviously want to use Assaulting Lance to get kills because that gets them more turns. You also want to use Wild Rush on full columns, obviously, but if you've already hit and stunned one column, if you can hit and stun the single units in other columns you've just shut down the enemy's damage race potential. Similarly, after a point, you're doing Enough Damage, so maybe after a round of Cavalier Calls you might want to get them to hold off on that and use other passives if you still have PP, like their Cavalier Pursuit to get in a ton of extra damage now instead of a little extra damage later. Mixing up a large number of different units is hard but if you do it right you can compound your strengths and divide your weaknesses. Multiples of one unit usually presents and easy and obvious way to go all in on a damage tactic but also gives you an obvious huge weakness. An alternate approach to synergising offense is to have a unit with a ton of specific countermeasures in it that might not be a decisive damage dealer but can win against a wide variety of enemy compositions, put the enemy in a vulnerable state, and let any of your other units mop them up. Even more generally: lean into anything that does row or party wide buffs, or any tactic that can stack multiple damage buffs on one attacking unit. "Everything works" is a cliche but it's basically true. It doesn't mean you can make units at random, but it does mean that if you pick one idea and run as far as you can with it, you'll get some god drat results.
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Apr 22, 2024 21:58
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I would have scripted more if optimize gear didnt overwrite my scripting
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Apr 23, 2024 03:01
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Oh wow I thought I was just absent minded and forgetting I changed people's load outs for some reason.
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Apr 23, 2024 06:31
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I didn't notice there was an optimise equipment button. lmao. Now that I know about it, I still can't imagine how it could possibly work worth a drat, unless it ignores all stat boosts except the raw attack and defence numbers, and even then it would still mess up your tactics.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:05
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You should probably never press that button.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:10
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I think I pressed that button three times across my playthrough, every time was by accident, and every time was a disaster.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:28
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I beat the whole game just hitting optimize on my tactics 
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Apr 23, 2024 14:36
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You can save and load your tactics scripts, there's about 6 slots per unit class type. Makes it easier to swap between them, or give another unit what you've already built for one unit, or to restore your tactics in case you overwrote them via Optimize Equipment.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:48
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I never use optimize buttons in games, they're always Wrong.
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Apr 23, 2024 18:59
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99% of this game is so easy that you never even need to manually change tactics to be honest. The 100% accurate outcome bar prediction is probably the main culprit.
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Apr 23, 2024 19:01
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FrickenMoron posted:99% of this game is so easy that you never even need to manually change tactics to be honest. The 100% accurate outcome bar prediction is probably the main culprit. I loved all the scripting personally and I had a good time developing my own style. I'm personally happy the game is on the easier side so I could enjoy my experiments and keep the game moving forward.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:30
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