|
OhFunny posted:"Daikaiosyne." A Greek word meaning righteousness or justice. Fun fact: だいかいおうしん is also a Japanese word, meaning "Great God of the Kings of Worlds," famously used during the Buu Saga of DBZ
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 07:57 |
|
|
Dulia-Chai really is the best
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:09
|
|
|
Shadowbringers uses a decent amount of Final Fantasy IX parallels, and this is probably at its most obvious with Eulmore. The Jongleurs, unnamed as they are, are almost certainly meant to be Zorn and Thorn. Vauthry, meanwhile, evokes Queen Brahne.    Beyond the similarities of appearance, there's also the matter of Alexandria, Brahne's kingdom in IX, secretly housing the summon Alexander. In the same way, Eulmore secretly houses a bunch of Sin Eaters. Of course, Alexander wasn't evil in IX and was a protector of the town, while the Sin Eaters could only be described that way in the most charitable of interpretations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:11
|
|
|
For those that missed it, double-update on last page, go read it. At any rate, I do think there are some minor plot holes here. As you stated, the Derelicts feel like an afterthought, and the combination of incidental NPC dialogue contrasting with the MSQ feels very... at-odds with each other. I think there are answers you could pitch for why the bandits are ex-Eulmoran military, but the game really doesn't ever do any work to connect those dots. The slow reveal of the town being a doomsday cult, especially when the title "City of Final Pleasures" is literally thrown in your face, really sells it for me, though. It's not meant to be exactly clean, because the entire city is a people living out the end times in their literal gilded cage. I do also wonder if some of this might have been a result of Eulmore changing in development - it's something we can talk on more as the LP gets further, but the implications even just from what we see of Eulmore in the Shadowbringers trailer versus this initial look into the Eulmoran lifestyle speaks to some changes in development. edit: Craptacular! posted:2. I probably won't be the first (or will i?) to be a little surprised you went for Aum Shinrikyo, instead of their perhaps more well known competitor in this space, Happy Science, which is kind of the Scientology to Aum's Manson Family. Their obsession with pleasure and afterlife imagery is definitely apt for Eulmore, and they have a tendency to target celebrities and other people of means who worry that their money can't buy happiness. Yeah, I think when I first played this my thoughts were immediately more in the vein of Happy Science versus Aum Shinrikyo or Heaven's Gate. Monathin fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Apr 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:15
|
|
|
1. Well, now we know why Shadowbringers is "Jet-Black Villains" in Japan. 2. I probably won't be the first (or will i?) to be a little surprised you went for Aum Shinrikyo, instead of their perhaps more well known competitor in this space, Happy Science, which is kind of the Scientology to Aum's Manson Family. Their obsession with pleasure and afterlife imagery is definitely apt for Eulmore, and they have a tendency to target celebrities and other people of means who worry that their money can't buy happiness. 3. Vauthry's English actor is the same man who voiced Grynewaht in Stormblood. Boy does this guy have a knack for detestable comic villains. I might have mentioned in Stormblood when you marked Grynewaht's passing that his actor would return in a greater role, and here it is. 4. The cabaret club and the girl who needs throat surgery, sort of explains the girl in Gatetown who thought her singing could get her inside. The question is, do the sin eaters attack because Vauthry is interested in singers? Or is it just a coincidence and a "her singing is awful" joke? Either way, the city that controls sin eaters keeps a supply of people with a talent that serves as a beacon for them, which is interesting. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Apr 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:16
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:2. I probably won't be the first (or will i?) to be a little surprised you went for Aum Shinrikyo, instead of their perhaps more well known competitor in this space, Happy Science, which is kind of the Scientology to Aum's Manson Family. Their obsession with pleasure and afterlife imagery is definitely apt for Eulmore, and they have a tendency to target celebrities and other people of means who worry that their money can't buy happiness. I knew I felt like I was forgetting something when I was doing all my research into cults during this write-up. It's obvious in hindsight. I probably skimmed past Happy Science because I was more specifically focused on those nesting in the Avoiding/Surviving The Apocalypse space.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:40
|
|
|
The niftiest thing about Dulia-Chai is that she's actually a giant lala with a fat cat head.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:45
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I knew I felt like I was forgetting something when I was doing all my research into cults during this write-up. It's obvious in hindsight. I probably skimmed past Happy Science because I was more specifically focused on those nesting in the Avoiding/Surviving The Apocalypse space. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:46
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:The niftiest thing about Dulia-Chai is that she's actually a giant lala with a fat cat head. All thiccqote are using lala animation rigs, which is part of what makes them so adorable. EDIT: I also want to mention that it seems like every expansion has it's own take on nobility and the underclass. Heavensward's approach of noblesse oblige where the wealthy will eventually grow selfish and need to be held to the threat of revolt is to my mind the most pragmatic and part of why I called it "the high water mark" of storytelling at the end of 5.3. The people around Eulmore by contrast could potentially do a Doma and build a self-sufficient town (despite all the strife shown needed to do so) as some people are determined to elsewhere in Kholusia, but these folks are deliberately condemning themselves to live like the people in the Brume that didn't have any other choices. Ala Mhigo's kind of an interesting one, because it's a place where nobility has already failed and the people have already seized the assets of the royals for public ownership, and generally speaking don't think of nobility as anything more than a failed idea that isn't useful. If ARR had not been written in a rush and been part of the vision that was laid out around Heavensward's release, then they could have made something of Ilberd's hatred of Nanamo and Raubahn's connection being because he does not believe that Ala Mhigans should bend the knee to any crown. However both Ishgard and Ala Mhigo were not very embellished in 1.x, and instead we had the sort of shortsighted, get-em-blogging shock and awe that ARR ended on. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Apr 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:49
|
|
|
No! You can’t double dose me like this! I’m gonna crash hard! Thanks Sang, ‘tis much appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 00:50
|
|
|
Dulia-Chai is great.  Eulmore was my favorite of the two starter areas and I think it brings a lot of entertaining shades of grey to the post-apocalyptic population of the First. Until now we've had a pretty reliable presentation of intrinsically hopeful and driven people surviving or giving into suicidal despair if not, all done well but still only two flavors of people. Now we have multiple viewpoints of biased, flawed, not perfectly knowledgeable people. It just makes sense to me for the setting that irregularities will crop up(not excusing them, but my suspension of disbelief was kept) in how citizens of Eulmore and the region are divided. It'd be so easy for many settings to paint everybody in Eulmore as uniformly evil and greedy. FF14 has demonstrated time and again that it puts in better effort than that and in a twist that surprised me my first time through they showed it in an unlikely place: Sanguinia posted:
Obesity as a short-hand for an evil, flawed, undisciplined person is a pretty easy trope to use. What shocks me here is in the dialogue that even at his absolute worst Vauthry is treated with respect. Maybe it's purely out of fear for his power and authority but... well, come on, if you've seen a lot of popular media you're likely familiar with the more likely outcome of "gently caress you, fatass" being thrown out. Alphi gives him a hell of a zinger but he doesn't do it to slam dunk Vauthry or even the audience with how much better he is than the evil fat guy. He expresses a culmination of his disgust with an abusive society. FF14 comes across as a really rich, mature setting and it's scenes and subtle touches like this that make it happen. Vauthry is unnerving because of the mysteries surrounding him and uncanny valley touches in his design. There's some levity to break up the tension of the scene and even when he throws a literal ground-pounding tantrum he's still a terrifying, dignified character. The killer VA work certainly doesn't hurt! There's more to discuss since clearly this isn't the last we see of Vauthry but that'll have to wait until it happens. Dulia-Chai benefits from this approach as well. Eulmore is when they demonstrated overweight character models and well, great job, SE. They're people, treated with the basic dignity people deserve and then treated as they earn in their actions and personality and maybe that's why Eulmore resonated with me so well. The setting feels extra rich to have shades of grey and layers of depth beyond "here's the metaphor for evil greed city." Amh Araeng was great too, WELCOME TO SHADOWBRINGERS, but Eulmore really set the stage for me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:05
|
|
|
 Craptacular! posted:3. Vauthry's English actor is the same man who voiced Grynewaht in Stormblood. Boy does this guy have a knack for detestable comic villains. I might have mentioned in Stormblood when you marked Grynewaht's passing that his actor would return in a greater role, and here it is. Hey, look at him going from minor villain to the Lord of a nation. All of his namedays finally came at once. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:05
|
|
|
And that was the other half of my thoughts! It's nice to know other people also immediately thought of Doomsday cults, even if I specifically thought of the US ones I was familiar with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:07
|
|
|
Rogue AI Goddess posted:We are almost ready to meet my favorite character of the expansion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:19
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:Obesity as a short-hand for an evil, flawed, undisciplined person is a pretty easy trope to use. What shocks me here is in the dialogue that even at his absolute worst Vauthry is treated with respect. Maybe it's purely out of fear for his power and authority but... well, come on, if you've seen a lot of popular media you're likely familiar with the more likely outcome of "gently caress you, fatass" being thrown out. Alphi gives him a hell of a zinger but he doesn't do it to slam dunk Vauthry or even the audience with how much better he is than the evil fat guy. He expresses a culmination of his disgust with an abusive society. 100% agreement on this. Japanese media in particular rarely treats overweight people with basic dignity and like human beings rather than gags like they mostly do here in Eulmore. It's nice to see. There's even more cultural stigma surrounding weight there than in the US, which is saying something. There's room for criticism, of course. Vauthry having a literal baby tantrum or Dulia literally sniffing Alphinaud are both skirting the line of iffyness, but they're not horking down food every second or making every line a joke at their own expense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:23
|
|
|
Kholusia is a deeply depressing, especially taken after Ahm Araeng. In the latter times are tough but people are still trying for the most part. In the former everything is almost completely broken down, blighted by Eulmore's influence. Some of the individuals are still good and thoughtful people on both sides of Gatetown, but they're all basically powerless to resist the forces set against them and it's clear even the strongest are about at their breaking points. Vauthry is a pretty solid villain character. Beyond the fat coding (which they went super extra with), he immediately comes across as vain and arrogant through his words, but also a childish dumbass who only has control because he's concentrated so much power that nobody can gainsay him. The pause before "wait did he just insult me?" is such a great character defining moment: he's both blindsided by the idea that somebody would drop the mic like that right in front of him, and has to stop and think about it for a moment to understand that's what actually happened. He's a cruel gross rear end in a top hat idiot that you nevertheless have to take seriously because somehow he can control sin eaters. And yeah, Dulia is the best. Among at least three other bests already presented in 5.0. I'd completely forgotten about the surprise guest in the audience here, too. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:50
|
|
|
The Derelicts being a shanty town made from broken ships – because what need does Eulmore have of things that can leave? – is such an evocative image that I don't even care they barely make sense. I appreciate that they could have reached for the low-hanging meol with the standard 'fat cat capitalists ruling over the poors' and instead immediately led us to the nicest lady in the entire zone. Dulia single-handedly tilts our perspective; the Eulmorans are sheltered and ignorant, not evil. Well, mostly. There's a few tossers hanging about. But we don't meet them first, no; we meet the Chais.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 01:55
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:The reason for his restraint is simple: Kai will die if we don't help him. He kneels and heals the boy's wounds. Vauthry is incensed. Fun fact: if you're on a healing job (White Mage, Astrologian, Scholor or Sage) during this cutscene, your Warrior of Light will also kneel down to help Alphinaud heal Kai-Shirr. It's a nice touch that can help add to your Warrior of Light's characterization if you're a healer main.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 02:16
|
|
|
Also, if you are a healer class during that cutscene, you will help Alphi heal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 02:18
|
|
|
I always thought that Gatetown was an extension of The Derelicts. That this shantytown clustered around the base of Eulmore has grown so large that it started spilling out from under its shadow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 02:33
|
|
|
I love that pause from Vauthry after the insult from Alphi. You can practically see Vaurthy's brain going, 'Error, does not compute'
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 02:33
|
|
|
I have to imagine that when he's surrounded by Sin Eaters and sycophants, all of whom seem to be fine with doing his bidding, hearing someone say "No." and then just walk off isn't something he's particularly used to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 02:53
|
|
|
when we return to the Source, we really need to tell Merlwyb her alternate universe self sucks
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 03:07
|
|
|
First playing through this section I lost the card game vs Tista-Bie so many times in a row I legitimately thought it was a plot point she was cheating me at the game. Like I picked the statistically correct answer and just kept losing the game over and over again so many times I thought the devs were pulling a prank on me, but it just turned out to be ordinary obscenely bad luck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 03:24
|
|
|
I do kind of like that the duality of Eulmore is contained within the Chais. Dulia is an absolute dear who has never done anything wrong in her entire life, while Chai-Nuzz is honestly kind of a prick. I do have quibbles with some of the imagery with Vauthry's design, but I also have some thoughts about it that I can't get into until a lot later. (I have heard it is also perhaps a Berserk reference???) I absolutely fuckin love his voice actor though, he is just gnawing the gently caress out of the scenery at every moment and it's a delight. Also related to the Honeybee Inn thing, I believe that in the Japanese text he is referred to as Don Vauthry to connect him to Don Cornero, the head of Wall Market in FF7 where the Honeybee Inn is located. Not sure why the English version didn't include this reference, but eh. I do really like the vibes of the Eulmore side of thing, even if there are some holes there. I did Eulmore first, and it's kind of interesting the way both directions work. I think Eulmore setting up the creeping dread and then Ahm Araeng showing you the actual horror of the Sin Eater transformation works either way now that I've experienced it from both directions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 03:26
|
|
|
Ran Rannerson posted:I do kind of like that the duality of Eulmore is contained within the Chais. Dulia is an absolute dear who has never done anything wrong in her entire life, while Chai-Nuzz is honestly kind of a prick. Could be because in America Don is also shorthand for Donald and didn't want to deal with all of that potential baggage? (Shadowbringers was developed during the 2016 election and first years of Trump admin)
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 03:36
|
|
|
"Don" as a title in English is primarily associated with mafia families and such. That doesn't really convey what Vauthry's role is in Eulmore. It would imply he came by his power underhandedly or that Eulmore is some kind of criminal government.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:06
|
|
|
I'm not so big on Rencounter, it's my least favorite expansion random battle theme so far, even if aimless repetitive noodling could be said to have some thematic meaning. It just breaks up the songs I generally like better.Sanguinia posted:
 For an otherwise unremarkable monster in the zone, the local Kholusian goobbue being named Maultasche just always tickled my fancy from day one.   Sanguinia posted:Now, I think there is a point to the narrative's refusal to show Eulmore doing something explicitly harmful to those under their protection and limiting their bad deeds to putting temptation in front of people so they devolve in an attempt to grasp a reward. Until we get there, I'll just say that Wright was when I started to cement my feeling that the Kholusia side of the introduction was weaker than Ahm Araeng. The way pieces weren't adding up left me with the impression that I was seeing a proscribed drama play out on a stage rather than events happening in a world where my character lives.  clifton779 posted:I always thought that Gatetown was an extension of The Derelicts. That this shantytown clustered around the base of Eulmore has grown so large that it started spilling out from under its shadow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:13
|
|
|
'Don' has a very mafia feel, while Vauthry has more of a insane religious cult leader thing going than "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse...".
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:16
|
|
|
Hogama posted:
You motherfucker, I KNEW someone was gonna say this! 
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:25
|
|
|
I can't believe Alphinaud just told Vauthry to turn off his monitor.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:29
|
|
|
With Eulmore being a doomsday cult, I wouldn’t be surprised if the towns that swore loyalty ended up vanishing. Not destroyed, but absorbed into Eulmore, either as bonded or residents of The Derelicts, or just slowly petered out as the best and brightest of those towns were poached. I find it telling that all of the towns that we can visit in Kholusia right now are the towns that rejected Eulmore’s help, with the implications that one’s that did just don’t exist as towns anymore.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:41
|
|
|
Imagine there is a Heaven, Imagine there's a god. Then pray they're nothing like this, Wicked Alan Lazy. On the whole fat shaming thing, between the extremes of the two, with Dulia being a sweetheart and Vaurthry being... decisively not, I think the story comes out on an even keel. Also pictures do nothing to say how long Vaurthry takes to realise Alphinaud's comments were an insult. Whatever has Eulmore's citizenry around his finger, it's absolutely not intelligence. ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Apr 28, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 04:59
|
|
|
For me at least, the horror of Eulmore works better if you've done Ali's questline first. When "Ascension" gets dropped, and the guy starts talking about sin eaters taking away souls, you know exactly what this likely means. Eulmore's great! It's a city of assholes, but it's bleak enough that you can believe some of those assholes don't have to stay assholes, they're just stuck in an insanely bleak situation. It's a doomsday cult for pleasure seekers, but nobody inside is actually be getting any pleasure from anything they're doing. It frankly fits Alphi and his story arc even better then Ahm Araeng fit Ali, which isn't a knock on the latter. And everyone loves the Chais. It's super creepy, and it going into "doomsday cult" rather then "alliance of the bourgeoisie" sets it up as a better counterpart to the Crystarium.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 05:15
|
|
|
clifton779 posted:I always thought that Gatetown was an extension of The Derelicts. That this shantytown clustered around the base of Eulmore has grown so large that it started spilling out from under its shadow. I think this is actually the case and mentioned...somewhere but gently caress if I can remember
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 05:19
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:I think this is actually the case and mentioned...somewhere but gently caress if I can remember It makes sense and all, which is why I mentioned that as the most likely explanation in the chapter, its just weird that the first NPC right next to the road in Derelicts is like "This isn't like Gatetown, none of us believe we'll get into Eulmore, we're just waiting to die," and then everyone else is like "Yeah, we're just a second Gatetown." I think another part of the issue for me is that there's retrospectively a lot of artificiality to how they preserved the mystery of what's really going on in Eulmore and stoked the red herrings that made you think you already knew before the answers came. Gatetown is a perfect example: its presented like it's this ultimate line in the sand dividing us from the answers to all our questions right up until we're past it, and then we find Second Gatetown on the other side. And once we have the answers that Second Gatetown makes plenty of sense because Gatetown 1.0 wasn't quite what we imagined it was, but while we're still working toward the answers it feels really odd.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 05:38
|
|
|
I don't think it's a bad intro going Alphinaud -> Alisaie, but I prefer the narrative flow in this order. You go from the Crystarium, bulwark of hope and resistance at the end of the world, to Mord Souq, with its scrabbly but genial population, then on to the Inn at Journey's Head, with its grim mission of mercy, all at the literal edge of the living world in the still-prominent ruins of a once-flourishing capital...and finally come to terms with the nature of the horror haunting the First. From there you go to people struggling uneasily in Stilltide and Wright, contrasted with the squalid desperation of Gatetown. Once up in Eulmore, things are still very much amiss despite the opulence, culminating in Vauthry's court (which, even if you hadn't done Amh Araeng, should still be setting off warning klaxons) introducing a more intelligently antagonistic presence and ending with a gauntlet of defiance being thrown. It's just a nice descent of world conditions followed by a firm resolve against a figurehead to me. Meanwhile in the Derelicts:  Roommates.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 05:42
|
|
|
The thing about Vauthry's fatness is that not only do they take pains to ensure that the first obese character you meet in Eulmore is the unparalleled sweetheart that is Dulia-Chai, but when you actually look at Vauthry's body structure, whatever he's got going on is way more hosed up than just being fat. His proportions are all over the place. His entire head could fit in one of his own hands! His legs in their entirety are significantly shorter than his forearm! He's so warped and uncanny that he only barely manages to register as human. It's fantastic lowkey body horror. Also, a fun thing I just realized: The Japanese title for the Kholusia overworld music, 合わないピース, has a double meaning. "Unmatching Pieces" is a valid reading, but it could also be interpreted as "Unmatching Peace". Or, perhaps... Sanguinia posted:Eulmore's soldiers once bled on the same front lines as the rest of humanity, but now they've made a separate peace,
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 06:03
|
|
|
And there in lies part of the death of The First. It's major force has not simply given up it's actively helping the Sin Eaters. Slowly, but surely, it's feeding its own citizens to them in a doomsday cult at the behest of a mad tyrant. It is the exact result of a doomsday in which a central government is destroyed and what remains is broken fractured communities desperately bound together trying to survive.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 06:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 07:57 |
|
|
Unmatching Pieces and everlasting light make for such an unsettling combination setting a perfect mood for a dying world. And my read on the people in gate town being as they are was always focused on Meol. They put a lot of emphasis on how much Meol people were eating and how they behaved as far as I remember.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2024 08:21
|
|