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I do suspect part of the thinking with the Chais was they had figured out Vauthry's design, were committed to it for some reasons (possibly the IX parallels), and thought "Hmm we don't want basically the only overweight person in the game to be an absolute monster". Hence Dulia, who is a little comical, but also has enough nuance as a character to work. And the Jongleurs are a nice touch. I do wonder how this plays in the opposite order- Amh Areng is "HOLY CRAP PEOPLE ARE TURNING INTO MONSTERS WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE", and Kholusia is "Society is basically done for, everyone's huddling in the ruins, occasionally someone dies or turns into a monster". Both grim states of affairs but expressed different ways. Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 09:45
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Kholusia to Ahm Araeng makes what Sin Eaters are, and thus what it means for Vauthry to control them and the implications of an ascension a way bigger mystery. Because you don't have the knowledge of how they're born the mystery of Eulmore's leader situation carries through the second zone in the back of your mind. Frankly I think it works better, and means that you're returning to the Crystarium with the horror of what Sin Eaters are fresh for what comes next.
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Apr 27, 2024 10:06
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When I first arrived in Eulmore, there was a culinarian cooking in the showers. I don't know why that sticks with me but it was so unwholesome that they went out of their way to go and cook there of all places. Eulmore as a city is a fantastic contrast to the Crystarium in just about every way: aesthetics, politics, structure, etc. If you find yourself in there as night turns to day, the blasting fanfare at the start of the day theme can be a bit of a shock. Lord_Magmar posted:Kholusia to Ahm Araeng makes what Sin Eaters are, and thus what it means for Vauthry to control them and the implications of an ascension a way bigger mystery. Because you don't have the knowledge of how they're born the mystery of Eulmore's leader situation carries through the second zone in the back of your mind. I can certainly see that working but I'd argue the opposite; going from Ahm Araeng to Kholusia with the horror of what Sin Eaters are fresh in your mind results in a steadily growing tension throughout this section and a much bigger mystery because you know what they are. What does it mean that Vauthry can "control" the sort of monsters you've just seen? Why are the residents of Kholusia so (relatively) lackadaisical about Sin Eater attacks when you've seen what they can do? Why is the Eulmorean army pared back to administrative functions in the face of that sort of threat? I went through all of Eulmore up to the cutscene with Vauthry thinking that "control" had to be some sort of euphemism; some sort of Sin Eater repellent. Seeing them lying at his feet like docile animals was monstrous precisely because I'd seen what they were like in the wild beforehand. The events of Ahm Araeng were so shocking that they were still fresh on return to the Crystarium even after going through Kholusia.
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Apr 27, 2024 10:18
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Lord_Magmar posted:Kholusia to Ahm Araeng makes what Sin Eaters are, and thus what it means for Vauthry to control them and the implications of an ascension a way bigger mystery. Because you don't have the knowledge of how they're born the mystery of Eulmore's leader situation carries through the second zone in the back of your mind. Yeah this is how I played it and I think it works best this way. The slow build of the mystery and increasing horror is really powerful. But I think the real answer is that whatever order someone experienced the opening quests of ShB first is the order they feel is most effective.
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Apr 27, 2024 11:19
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For my two cents, I wonder if Ahm Areng would feel like it holds back on why the Sin Eaters are such a nightmare for too long if you do it the other way around. You get almost nothing about the Sin Eaters in Kholusia. You get one attack on the old woman so you can feel that they're somewhat stronger than normal monsters, you get to hear about the nasty one that hit Wright but you're told that it was abnormal, and you get to hear that people see Eulmore protecting people from them as a perk, but based on everything else in the zone the Meol as relief from starvation seems to be a significantly bigger benefit. Learning that Vauthry can control them and seeing that he has a harem full of them in his throne room that nobody except Alphinaud fears would have certainly made me curious about why the boy is acting so horrified, but even HE just kind of starts ignoring them so he can yell at Vauthry minutes later. In Ahm Areng they push the threat of the Eaters, but only after you get to the Inn, the whole first section barely brings them up. Then you see Alis kill one like a dog and explain to you in words why you shouldn't take that as a measure of why they're a problem. You'd have been quite a few hours into the game seeing these new enemies get clowned on while NPCs assure you "No, they're super dangerous," by that point between Crystarium intro, all of Eulmore and half of Ahm Areng. In my minds eye I can picture the big moment when you lose Tesleen feeling a little forced by that point rather than being amplified by the player either letting their guard down or having their curiosity reach an ultimate peak after all the waiting.
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Apr 27, 2024 11:36
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Smegma Princess X posted:Could be because in America Don is also shorthand for Donald and didn't want to deal with all of that potential baggage? (Shadowbringers was developed during the 2016 election and first years of Trump admin) Given when it was released, it was really difficult to not see some commentary on current events when I got to Eulmore; A doomsday cult led by a giant, fat, swivel-eyed lunatic with a bizarre type of charisma, terrible blonde hair in a ridiculous coiffure, and, shall we say, not coming across as the brightest person in the world? To me, it was about as subtle as being hit in the face with a brick wrapped in five other bricks, stuffed in a sock made of bicycle-chains. That said, holy poo poo, I love every scene Vauthry's in, because drat does his voice-actor hit it out of the park every. Single. Time. Speaking of which! Can we just take a moment and admire the artistry that went into this model? It manages to convey decadence, hedonistic overindulgence, luxury and creeping, insidious body-horror at the same time. This is superb visual storytelling right here. Again, it's not subtle, but it is excellent. Sanguinia posted:
Oh, you thought you were safe just because you were on a Shard? Aahahahahahahaa! For what it's worth, I said some very... crude things when I spotted that. Also also, Dulia and Chai-Nuzz are great. Yes, both of them! Chai-Nuzz may be a bit of a prick, but he clearly loves and adores his wife and wants her to be happy, so I'm prepared to forgive him a lot. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 11:57
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Sanguinia posted:Why is this even here? So people can turn in collectibles to Not-Rowena? They couldn't have put a smuggler in the Crystarium market or something? You can't convince me that there are going to be sidequests or other things pulling me back to this area throughout the campaign. I still can't even attune to the drat Aetheryte! If I want to return to Eulmore, I have to teleport to Wright and ride over on a ground mount! All to visit a city that has nothing in it but NPCs who should be killing me on sight! I assume they've decided that never locking you out of an area is How The Game Works, no matter how flimsy the plot justification. (And with it being an MMO, if you play at odd times you can be blocked on a multiplayer duty not popping for a very long time, so you can't necessarily just progress the main plot to get back and clear up any sidequests you half-did or whatever). I took the aetheryte being locked as the game telling me that although technically I could come back, I really wasn't supposed to.
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Apr 27, 2024 13:33
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Sanguinia posted:The Settlement Theme for this town is called You'd think that, given what they do there, it would be called The Inn At Journey's End. But it's actually called The Inn At Journey's Head.
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Apr 27, 2024 13:40
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I'm surprised that Notwena is unlockable this early. I never found her until much later and it's not like there's much point to being able to spend scrip now. Dulia-Chai is an absolute sweetheart and I love her a lot, even if she ends up being used for an odd immersion-break at the end of the sequence (I understand why they do that on a gameplay level, but having them actually tap on the glass like that during a cutscene takes me out of the story more than just being silently allowed to return and her telling us not to worry if we do come back and talk with her). And while Chai-Nuzz is the kind of prick you expect to see here, it ends up being kind of funny just because he's such a pushover for his wife. Rich Prick is playing second fiddle to Wife Guy (Ultimate) for characterization in his scenes. I have to agree that I don't think Alphinaud-first actually works as well. Even if you mainline the msq rather than doing side stuff, that's still putting the weaker of the two areas first and putting off knowledge of what the full horror of Sin Eaters actually is until a couple hours in, which is A Bit Much. Understanding that Sin Eaters were people helps underscore the horror of the situation.
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Apr 27, 2024 13:40
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I think my favourite part of this bit is when Vauthry finishes his first speech the WoL just starts moving into "I'm going to kick your arse" mode and Alphinaud has to rather hurriedly step in front and start talking because otherwise there was going to be an immediate change of government.
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Apr 27, 2024 15:19
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TLM3101 posted:Given when it was released, it was really difficult to not see some commentary on current events when I got to Eulmore; A doomsday cult led by a giant, fat, swivel-eyed lunatic with a bizarre type of charisma, terrible blonde hair in a ridiculous coiffure, and, shall we say, not coming across as the brightest person in the world? To me, it was about as subtle as being hit in the face with a brick wrapped in five other bricks, stuffed in a sock made of bicycle-chains. minor touch on that front: the blatant parallel may just be a fun coincidence, because the thing it is directly targeting is something far more near and dear to post-war Japan. these are the monsters that killed your family, and destroyed the world you know. alabaster skin, and dead eyes. walking around the city like they own the place. once we DEFINED ourselves by our opposition to these creatures, and now THE SAME loving MEN WHO FOUGHT THEM wouldn't lift a finger against them, they're your friends and protectors. Lord Vauthry says so. and if you do lift a finger against them, you will be subject to the worst punishment imaginable. we are all FRIENDS with the things that destroyed us, now, aren't we? and if your daughter goes missing, well, sometimes your protectors have to feed, don't they? so says the swollen, grotesque rear end in a top hat who cut a deal with them to keep himself in power, anyway. he does not need to be smart. he does not need to be charismatic. he can sit on his rear end and indulge every desire he can think of without even having to pretend to give a poo poo about you. because he has them, ready and willing to kill anyone who makes a peep about how 'it didn't used to be this way.' if you wonder where the stock character in like half of all animes "fat bloviating official who gets most of his men killed and then tries to defect" comes from, well, you know where Vauthry came from. the guys we put in charge of Japan post-WW2 were some real loving characters.
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Apr 27, 2024 16:57
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The way I was able to square the circle on being able to go to and from Eulmore at this point of the story is "Vauthry is mad at the teenage elf that turbo-burned him, and barely remembers there was a second person." This...becomes less tenable as the story progresses. Especially if you are playing a Lalafell. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 17:54
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TLM3101 posted:That said, holy poo poo, I love every scene Vauthry's in, because drat does his voice-actor hit it out of the park every. Single. Time. Speaking of which! Now imagine Vauthry but voiced by Hedonismbot
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Apr 27, 2024 18:06
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I don't think you should have been allowed free access to Eulmore before you have the ability to attune to the aetheryte.
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Apr 27, 2024 18:17
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I don't think I ever noticed that you were actually allowed to just walk back in right away. I must've glossed over Dulia's line, and mentally auto-corrected it as something she was hopeful of arranging sometime in the future.
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Apr 27, 2024 18:59
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I'm surprised to hear you can go back in at this point in the story. Either it's something that was added later, or I just never tried. There's basically no reason to go back until the story sends you back.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:06
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If the story let you go back into Ul'dah while you were wanted for the assassination of Nanamo I'm not surprised it let you go back into Eulmore after pissing off Vauthry.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:12
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Hellioning posted:If the story let you go back into Ul'dah while you were wanted for the assassination of Nanamo I'm not surprised it let you go back into Eulmore after pissing off Vauthry. Yeah, this is basically how I treated it. It's a dumb concession for realism but it's consistent with what they've done before.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:15
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The Crystal Braves and Nanamo thing would've locked players out of huge amounts of the game for 3 real months as they waited for Heavensward to be released. There's practically nothing within Eulmore you could even want access to at this point.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:22
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Off the top of my head there's a couple of vendors, scrip and materia that weren't replicated in the Crystarium. But unless you're progressing in a weird way you won't need to access those vendors until after the story sends you back to Eulmore and now they're replicated by the Splendors NPC in the main plaza of the Crystarium.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:27
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The writing team is good about never giving you a narrative reason to go back to Ul'dah/the Source/Eulmore, so its easy to just headcanon that you were locked out of those places until the plot advances. Yeah, it would be more immersive if the game flat-out prevented you from going somewhere you aren't supposed to but its easy for that to create Issues, so better to just allow it and trust players to sort it out themselves.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:43
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There's some jump puzzle sightseeing logs in Eulmore that you'd have been locked out of for however long, I suppose. I'd have liked if they could have just used their special instance tech to make a version of Eulmore that didn't have any real amenities so you'd have to wait until the story let you in "for real," but it is what it is.
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Apr 27, 2024 19:48
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At least with the Crystal Braves situation they put in some work to justify things. If you go around and talk to various military NPCs like the Paladins and the Immortal Flames in Ul'dah they will tell you that they know you're innocent and they're ready to throw down if someone starts poo poo, and the only reason they haven't done so on their own and put this coup down is because the enemy has Raubahn and they're hoping for an alternative to his execution. In Mor Dhona if you go talk to the guy guarding the door to the Rising Stones, he'll tell you he's not part of the coup but most of the Braves in Mor Dhona are, so we can't act right now, but they have good reason not to try and take you down while you're in town. Major government leaders in Limsa and Gridania tell you that you're in no danger in their territory because they know this is a farce. In Eulmore I went in and checked, not just right not but after some significant events in the future: most of the NPCs don't even change their dialogue to reflect the fact that something happened in Vauthry's chamber, not even the guards. Dulia is happy to see you, and Nuzz looks around in a panic and asks if you're insane for being there, that's IT. It's lazy in the extreme.
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Apr 27, 2024 20:54
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Sanguinia posted:At least with the Crystal Braves situation they put in some work to justify things. If you go around and talk to various military NPCs like the Paladins and the Immortal Flames in Ul'dah they will tell you that they know you're innocent and they're ready to throw down if someone starts poo poo, and the only reason they haven't done so on their own and put this coup down is because the enemy has Raubahn and they're hoping for an alternative to his execution. In Mor Dhona if you go talk to the guy guarding the door to the Rising Stones, he'll tell you he's not part of the coup but most of the Braves in Mor Dhona are, so we can't act right now, but they have good reason not to try and take you down while you're in town. Major government leaders in Limsa and Gridania tell you that you're in no danger in their territory because they know this is a farce. I think everyone's frozen state in Eulmore is a deliberate choice to emphasize that there is something wrong about what's happening there, but we don't really know yet all of the details.
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Apr 27, 2024 21:08
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Mr. Nice! posted:I think everyone's frozen state in Eulmore is a deliberate choice to emphasize that there is something wrong about what's happening there, but we don't really know yet all of the details. That's reasonable. I guess I'm just mostly bugged that the guards and military don't have anything to say, less so the rest of the citizenry. Even with just what we've seen I can buy them mostly not caring, but it's a way bigger stretch for the people who's job it is to kill people Vauthry doesn't like.
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Apr 27, 2024 21:39
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As the obligatory guy who hates gameplay mechanics reinforcing story because I think people should be free to ignore the story in an MMORPG, my belief is that the problem here isn't that they don't block you from coming back, it's the in-universe flimsy argument as a real-world flimsy justification. You're featuring your worst side by having characters go "oh but you know if you wanted to you could walk back in." As Marge said, they're right, but they shouldn't say it. Better to just do nothing and not invite the player in, so that it eventually sinks in to the player that they're the one deliberately breaking the immersion at this point.
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Apr 27, 2024 21:46
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I wonder if it would have been better to just drop the line from Dulla-Chai about letting you back in and just give you the ability to walk back in with no explanation. Either way, it's very minor as there is very little reason to return to Eulmore. I certainly never went back. E:f;b
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Apr 27, 2024 21:48
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I think it just wasn't a priority at all - Dulia's dialogue is there to make sure people know they can return (if they have their own reasons to go back), but they're not really supposed to and the locked aetheryte and lack of anything changing or happening in Eulmore emphasizes that. The end of ARR is different, a lot of the game still happened in and around Ul'dah and in Mor Dhona so it made sense to provide context for why you could still do your business despite the Crystal Braves everywhere.
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Apr 27, 2024 21:54
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orcane posted:I think it just wasn't a priority at all - Dulia's dialogue is there to make sure people know they can return (if they have their own reasons to go back), but they're not really supposed to and the locked aetheryte and lack of anything changing or happening in Eulmore emphasizes that. this is the biggest thing. the worldstate after the banquet lasted a few months real time and occupied highly populated areas, the worldstate post 71 but pre 80 is expected to last no more than a week real time, if not a couple days and occupies an area that would still be filling in with population at intended release.
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Apr 27, 2024 22:01
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Sanguinia posted:That's reasonable. I guess I'm just mostly bugged that the guards and military don't have anything to say, less so the rest of the citizenry. Even with just what we've seen I can buy them mostly not caring, but it's a way bigger stretch for the people who's job it is to kill people Vauthry doesn't like. I mean, Vauthry doesn't really know who you are. He gets mad at Alphi, yeah, but you're just another person that was there. For him to order people to kill you, he actually has to know who you are to say "kill this person." I could totally see Alphinaud struggling to just stroll by Vauthry's room and all, but you're just another face. Your villainy is de minimis. Plus everyone there is fat and lazy. The guards and military don't really have a job in Vauthry's paradise.
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Apr 27, 2024 22:09
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I know at least one person playing the game that takes long breaks from MSQing to gently caress off with god knows what, it is not out of the question that there is some tiny portion of people that would get cranky about not having scrip vendor access for their side-side-side-sidequest project, and the devs would rather just leave the way open and spackle roughly over it with a narrative excuse. I sometimes feel like at some point, someone on the dev team felt so bad about the mistake of locking the Heavensward classes behind actually beating the ARR gauntlet (or at least really tired of everyone's lamenting this fact) that there's now a big commandment up on the wall: THOU MUST MINIMIZE THE THINGS PEOPLE GET LOCKED AWAY FROM At any rate, flimsy as an excuse as it is to have Dullia-Chai just take care of it, it has been shown that some notable portion of Eulmore's population is kind of... numb to... things. I've tolerated greater leaps in personal game logic, I sat around while the game let Alphinaud build a pretty ill-advised looking army and it all came out fine! Mostly! Kind of.
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Apr 27, 2024 22:23
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the issue is imo drawing attention to it really (as I think sang noted in the post). the aetheryte is already inaccessible and as noted there's basically nothing there anyways; just don't have dulia-chai say anything about it here, and give her easter egg overworld dialogue about it if you put the effort in to make the trek out.
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Apr 27, 2024 22:39
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FeatherFloat posted:I know at least one person playing the game that takes long breaks from MSQing to gently caress off with god knows what Until postgame Shadowbringers, this was me. I'd just get bored with the MSQ and so I'd stop for weeks or months wherever it lost my interest. For a very long time, I had the MSQ paused in 3.3 just before unlocking Sohr Khai because I wanted to mess with alt jobs and POTD.
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Apr 27, 2024 22:48
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FeatherFloat posted:I sometimes feel like at some point, someone on the dev team felt so bad about the mistake of locking the Heavensward classes behind actually beating the ARR gauntlet (or at least really tired of everyone's lamenting this fact) that there's now a big commandment up on the wall: THOU MUST MINIMIZE THE THINGS PEOPLE GET LOCKED AWAY FROM I need to have a talk with this person about poetics vendors. It's very annoying that they're story locked rather than available the moment you hit an expansion's cap. Especially if they're trying to help new people rush through the many years old chapters of the game's kudzu plot to the point of trimming missions and publicly musing a soft reset skip, just let me kill world enemies in fewer GCDs. Please.
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Apr 27, 2024 23:15
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Sanguinia posted:That's reasonable. I guess I'm just mostly bugged that the guards and military don't have anything to say, less so the rest of the citizenry. Even with just what we've seen I can buy them mostly not caring, but it's a way bigger stretch for the people who's job it is to kill people Vauthry doesn't like. the guards and military of Eulmore are a bit of a loose end the story never quite ties up. if I had to guess i'd say there was an earlier draft where they played more of a role and then they got axed relatively late in the game. there's large parts of Eulmore the location you are done interacting with forever now, and I could see a version of the story where those were the Dedicated Military Bit
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Apr 27, 2024 23:18
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I know there's cut content related to Eulmore, but I can't discuss that until later.
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Apr 28, 2024 00:01
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Gruckles posted:The Crystal Braves and Nanamo thing would've locked players out of huge amounts of the game for 3 real months as they waited for Heavensward to be released. There's practically nothing within Eulmore you could even want access to at this point. Yeah, I think there's a big difference between "Locking you out of one of the three cities that the game starts in" and "Locking you out of an area you have no real reason to be in from a gameplay or story perspective aside from one NPC that really didn't need to be here right now".
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Apr 28, 2024 01:23
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When we reached Rhalgr's Reach in Stormblood, a lot of talk was made about how the Idylshire or Revanant's Toll town that players at the end of MSQ spend time in showed up early. Will people blow a gasket about spoilers if we simply say here and now that the NPCs around the central room of Eulmore serves that purpose for Shadow? Other players are there, and for much of it's time on content it was filled with crafters, as the upper levels of Crystarium have been recently. As a zone of it's own, it's not part of the Kholusia 'map' even if they have a travel bridge. If you wanted to trade with a crafter, for example, there's a 50/50 chance where they're going to be. For practical purposes it should not be locked away, but they didn't need to go out of their way in-universe to point out that it wasn't. Getting to it for a newer player is automatically a hassle due to the atheryte, which seems concession enough. The decision post-Heavensward to introduce endgame towns close to the start of the expansion cuts both ways, but I think Shadowbringers did it pretty well. Dock a few points for story inconsistency if you must, but it's no worse an introduction than Rhalgr's. And anything beats Mor Dhona being a place you could get to early but probably wouldn't unless a player flies you out there, even though that is probably the most 'pure' MMO experience. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Apr 28, 2024 |
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Apr 28, 2024 01:30
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I remember going back to the Marauder's Guild for a job quest in that 2.55 timeframe (I think for Scholar rather than Warrior though) and Wyrnzoen said something along the lines of, paraphrasing, "a couple Crystal Braves came looking for you, the lads took 'em out back and I don't think we'll see them again"
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Apr 28, 2024 02:22
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Pretty surer some Crystal Braves also say stuff along the lines of "I didn't see nothing, please don't hurt me."
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Apr 28, 2024 03:00
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