[Succ] Now Welcoming Debbie Wasserman Schultz to Team Genocide Denier

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Succ] Now Welcoming Debbie Wasserman Schultz to Team Genocide Denier

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SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

i'm not reporting tweet posts, i'm no snitch

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 17:37

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 00:02

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/left-wing-authoritarians-shutting-down-the-democratic-party.html
https://archive.is/zR1HW

quote:

The Left-Wing Authoritarians Shutting Down the Democratic Party
Liberals would justifiably freak out if the right was doing this to Biden.
By Jonathan Chait, who�s been a New York political columnist since 2011.

Imagine a world in which Congressman Jamie Raskin attempts to deliver a speech on �Democracy, Autocracy, and the Threat to Reason in the 21st Century� and is unable to deliver his remarks because Trump supporters drown him out, and authorities justify the disruption as an exercise in �democracy.� Democrats attempting to raise money for the opposition are surrounded on the street by Trumpists shouting �gently caress Joe Biden� and abusing them with racial epithets.

These are the kind of scenes that come to mind when we imagine the authoritarian culture of a second Trump term. They are also events that have not only occurred but have grown commonplace. This pattern of behavior is illiberal and dangerous.

The twist, of course, is that the mobs shutting down the opposition to Trump are not Trump supporters, or at least not right-wing Trump supporters. Pro-Palestinian activists have set out to disrupt Democratic Party officials from speaking and raising funds to defeat Trump.

A New York Times story recently drew some attention to the political problem this creates for Democrats. Indeed, some of the protesters are trying to defeat Biden (ergo, to elect Trump) to teach the Democrats a lesson, and others are merely trying to force the Democrats to move left before the election.

Because Democrats perceive some of the protesters as potential Biden voters, they have soft-pedaled their criticism of their tactics. The handful of critics have focused on the political ramifications of the protest movement. (�If you are now organizing people to walk away from supporting the president, then you are now de facto supporting and helping Trump,� Senator John Fetterman told the Times.)

But the problem is not one of mere efficacy. Drowning out speakers and disrupting exercises in politics, regardless of its cause or the target, is wrong on principle.

I�m not referring to tactics like holding protest marches, speeches, social-media posts, organizing uncommitted votes in the Democratic primary, or other exercises of First Amendment rights. I�m specifically referring to a campaign to shut down speakers who oppose (or even, in many cases, simply decline to endorse) the movement�s agenda.

Usually, it means interrupting speeches with screaming insults until the protesters are dragged out of the room, which has become the norm at Biden campaign events. At events with sub-presidential levels of security, protesters often succeed in overwhelming the event and its security and shutting down the speech or event entirely, sometimes employing violence.

I�d place in the same category aggressive personal harassment campaigns, like gathering outside somebody�s home at three o�clock in the morning with bullhorns shouting �We will not let you sleep!,� or surrounding individuals on the street to scream insults:
https://twitter.com/mrconfino/status/1773771364526067712

The goal of these maneuvers is not to make the case for pro-Palestinian policy, but to abuse and deny basic rights to those who fail to endorse the protesters� beliefs. And yes, being prevented from holding a planned speech to supporters, stalked on the street, or subjected to sleep denial are all forms of abuse. Almost nobody believes these are all just natural parts of the give and take of public disagreement.

The most elemental premise of liberalism is that politics should be governed by a uniform set of rules or norms that apply to everybody, regardless of the content of their beliefs. Over the last decade, an increasingly visible fault line has opened up on the left between political liberals and more radical activists. The illiberal left defines politics as a conflict between oppressor and victim and does not believe the former deserves the same rights as the latter. (Crucially, the special prerogatives of victimhood apply not only to victims but also to those struggling on their behalf.)

Abusive protesters usually meet critiques of their illiberal methods with a facile comparison to the civil-rights movement. But that movement was designed for a political environment in which basic liberal rights did not exist: Black Americans lacked the right to vote, to petition for grievances, or otherwise exert basic freedoms that white Americans enjoyed. The movement�s theorists did not intend their carefully designed arguments to be a permanent license for any progressive cause to declare itself beyond the law for all time.

Civil-rights demonstrators had been shut out of electoral politics by force since Reconstruction. The pro-Palestinian movement, by contrast, is barely even attempting democratic participation. The movement could have run an an anti-Israel candidate against Biden but never bothered, no doubt anticipating they would lose.

Force is not their last resort but their preferred method. It allows them to maintain the moral binary that animates them in all its purity without engaging in the unpleasant compromises necessary to win support of the majority of the country, or even a party.

Of course, large segments of the right dispensed with the guardrails of liberalism long ago. Donald Trump�s breakthrough insight is to stop even pretending that Republicans have to uphold any neutral standard of fairness. The Trump movement is a giant in-joke about this, delighting in the unembarrassed hypocrisy of endlessly complaining about crimes like corruption or weaponization of government that Trump engages in nakedly himself.

The illiberal left may have much less power than the illiberal right. But since this faction is demanding influence within the Democratic Party, it can no longer hide behind the notion that it�s too marginal to be worth criticizing. That old evasion � why single out a handful of college teens? � is comical now that illiberal tactics are playing an important role in a presidential election.

The ethics of the cause come into sharper focus if you imagine it being done by Biden haters in red MAGA hats rather than by Biden haters in keffiyehs. Sure, they�re �idealistic.� Plenty of Trump�s followers have ideals, too. If your movement�s goal is to prevent those who disagree from expressing themselves, and you delight in meting out abuse and humiliation to your targets, you�re showing the world you cannot be trusted with power.

six thousand words that boil down to :mods:

because a handful of people aren't falling in line behind party leadership

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 18:39

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

What if, many years ago, the very first time it became clear that Manchin wasn't on board with the Democratic Party agenda, the Party withheld resources and forced him to run as an Independent instead of a sanctioned Dem? That way, when the time comes when they need ideological unity to accomplish their agenda, they have it? Well that sounds like some very basic things I'd expect a political party to do, and if they're not doing that, I'd have some questions about how seriously they were approaching this whole "governing the country" thing.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 18:46

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

don't you have to have authority to be an authoritarian? It's like, in the name.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 18:47

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Ytlaya posted:

This is cruel. I was excited to find out what happens next, my leg already tapping to the beat, and then this happens.

we almost got to the part where Hamilton negs a rich lady and she gets mega horny for him

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 18:52

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

VitalSigns posted:

The argument is that if they'd done it in 2021 they'd lose the senate and not be able to appoint Justice Jackson, and so it's worth it but I always felt a tension there.

For one thing he might not switch parties, if the threat is effective then they win. For another, they don't need him for control now so they lose nothing by threatening his committee seats and the bribery gravy train that comes with them, yet they still don't do it.

And of course that same excuse was used for every blue dog: Joe Heller, Blanche Lincoln, Ben Nelson, Claire McCaskill, and they lost all those seats anyway and are about to lose Manchin's.

My thinking on that argument, is that the best approach for that problem is avoiding it in the first place. Obviously you can't always have that; Sinema didn't look like she would be such a spoiler at the get-go, for example. But let's look at abortion. The party continues to nominate and support anti-choice candidates at the same time it's claiming it's opposing Republican attempts to restrict abortion rights. How is the party going to protect abortion rights if abortion rights aren't a litmus test for party support? If you enforce party unity on abortion rights, you are much less likely to end up with a small handful of senators holding up abortion right legislation because we need them for judge nominations.

(the true problem is that there's not enough national support for a "let the government run itself and gently caress off to do insider trading" platform)

# ¿ Apr 9, 2024 19:32

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

this is the loan chatter you're hearing about :
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-seeks-cancel-some-interest-student-loans-aiding-23-million-americans-2024-04-08/

quote:

The plans, which the Democratic president detailed in Madison, Wisconsin, include cancelling up to $20,000 of accrued and capitalized interest for borrowers, regardless of income, which Biden's administration estimates would eliminate the entirety of that interest for 23 million borrowers.

...

As of June 2023, approximately 43.4 million student loan recipients had $1.63 trillion in outstanding loans, according to the Federal Student Aid website.

it's just like the rest of what he's done so far on loans: not nothing, but not nearly enough and they're obviously slow-rolling it. Also, last year the negotiated rulemaking thing they're doing settled on some pretty strict guardrails for loan forgiveness:

quote:

The proposed regulatory text released today provides more information on ideas discussed in early November around separate types of debt relief. The updated text reflects suggestions from negotiators and continued review by the Department. The text proposes to provide relief in the following circumstances:

Borrowers whose balances are greater than what they owed upon entering repayment. Many borrowers see interest charges grow faster than they can make payments. The Department has addressed these problems going forward through the Saving on a Valuable Education (SAVE) plan and new policies limiting interest capitalization. One of the Department�s proposals would provide up to $10,000 of relief to all borrowers who have experienced balance growth due to interest. Multiple proposals would provide even more interest relief to lower-income borrowers and to borrowers enrolled in SAVE.

Borrowers whose loans first entered repayment many years ago. The Department updated this proposed text to provide one-time relief 20 years after entering repayment for borrowers with only undergraduate loans. All other borrowers would receive forgiveness on loans that entered repayment 25 years ago, the same timeline as proposed by the Department at the second session.

Borrowers who are eligible for forgiveness under income-driven repayment plans or discharge opportunities such as Public Service Loan Forgiveness but have not yet applied for such relief. The proposal would provide borrowers with the benefits they have earned. The Department simplified this language from the prior session.

Borrowers who attended programs or institutions that failed to deliver sufficient financial value. This policy would provide relief to borrowers who are left repaying loans where the Department has taken action to terminate future borrowing at an institution or program because the institution or program is leaving students with unaffordable debts, or where such actions are cut off by closure. The Department clarified and expanded this proposed language from the prior session. In addition to including situations where a program or institution failed accountability measures based on their cohort default rates or debt-to-earnings rates, the Department is proposing to include situations where institutions or programs lose access to Federal aid due to actions that financially harm students, such as misconduct affecting student eligibility. This would also apply to programs or institutions that close prior to the finalization of such efforts or determinations.

https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administration-prepares-third-student-debt-relief-negotiation-session

basically, unless you went to a predatory diploma mill or you were owed forgiveness anyway because of PSLF, you're not getting that loan forgiven by this administration. the best they can offer you is that if you were only making minimum payments and the interest went out of control, they'll waive the interest so you still only owe the principal.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 17:42

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

PoundSand posted:

It's wild to me student loan interest is a thing anyways. Like obviously education should be free to begin with but if you absolutely must make it a loan that's essentially functioning as a tax meant to fund education by the people utilizing it, then there's no reason to slap interest on that, the gov is already benefiting from a more educated population, the "interest" is the higher earning potential that can be taxed.

i know basically nothing about how finance works at that level, but I assume allowing interest to accrue helped get lenders to offer education loans in the first place? like, they do subsidize the interest on some loans, but most of the loan debt is unsubsidized (the amount of subsidized loans you can get is capped at $3500-$5500 per year, but the median tuition for public universities is around 12 grand). So I imagine "don't worry, loan companies, you'll get plenty of interest payments from High School 2.0" was a big part of getting them on board.

okay soapbox time since I'm reminded of something i'm still mad about. The only way to get subsidized loans is to submit a FAFSA, where they ask questions about how much money you and your guardians have and make, and then they calculate your "expected family contribution". Then, you're offered a mix of loans equaling the difference between your expected family contribution and your tuition and expected costs. Let's say you're a go-getter, and you decide to support your education by getting a scholarship from a charity or NGO or whatever. Legally, you're expected to report that scholarship, which will then be added to your expected family contribution, lowering the amount you will be offered in loans. Unless you get more in scholarship money than the difference between your EFC and your tuition, you're still expected to contribute exactly as much money as you were before.

Granted, it does reduce your overall loan burden, so getting that scholarship might have a discernible effect 10-15 years down the road if you did the math on the counterfactual where you didn't get the scholarship. It might not even be a meaningful difference - those scholarships will be a few thousand bucks at the very most in my experience. But yeah. Getting scholarships doesn't do anything to make college more affordable in the moment for you and your family. Your budget is still hosed by those tuition payments.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 18:21

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

HashtagGirlboss posted:

Lmao that was so loving funny. They had an underground hideout where they discussed the plan and like 80% of them were informants if I�m remembering right

Also they like to set up right wing militia types from time to time too, certainly there�s an ideological quality to it but more than that busting a terrorist plot if good for your career and there�s no easier plot to bust than one you set up in the first place, so if your stuck out in some remote field office without a lot of anarchkiddies the militia guys are the low hanging fruit

yeah lol. 12/15 were confirmed informants and some had major roles in planning the whole thing.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jessicagarrison/fbi-informants-in-michigan-kidnap-plot
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/michigan-kidnapping-gretchen-whitmer-fbi-informant

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 18:39

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

I've been off twitter for a grip but my impression of Weigel was always that he's in a weird middle ground between standard lib and podcast-left. like, he agrees enough with Chapo's positions to go on their show, but there's definitely points of disagreement between them if you're following him separately from his Chapo appearances

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:08

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

mcmagic posted:

he's a reporter, who cares what his politics are anyway.

... why wouldn't i care what a reporter's politics are?

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:10

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Yeah this person's profession is being the filter through which world events are synthesized, interpreted, and conveyed to the public. Let's ignore the ideologies that would shape their decision-making in that process.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:12

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

mcmagic posted:

Tell me how his politics affects the tweet i posted. It's completely irrelevant lol. West's running mate had a dumb tweet and he posted a screen shot of it.

everyone makes dumb tweets. every tweet is dumb. microblogging social media exists for tweeting every dumb thing that pops into your head. so who is Weigel not screenshotting? why did Weigel think it was important for this one person's screenshot to be shared, and not plenty of other peoples' dumb posts? those are all questions which ideology and politics play a role.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:19

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

mcmagic posted:

this person is in the news today lol thats why, and she has some exceptionally silly takes.

so every politician who becomes the national main character gets a Weigel shoutout?

also like. just to be clear. I don't give a poo poo about Weigel or you quoting him. Post him here! sometimes he has good takes on stuff, sometimes he has bad takes. my specific objection is to you saying "why should I care about a reporter's politics". I think that's a really loving stupid thing to say even if I don't really care about Wiegel or that specific post.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:26

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Ytlaya posted:

It's good you included the picture because otherwise I would have had no idea what was happening here.

Now I realize that it's a scene of everyone yelling "Hey" at Eliza as she gets married to Hamilton.

also it's a scene where Hamilton implies someone is a frigid rear end in a top hat who needs to get laid, but he's just a rascally scamp so he gets away with it

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:31

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

sullat posted:

You should care about Weigel's tweet s because Joementum is a good poster with funny takes and it's interesting to see what he's posting on other sites.

have to be honest and say I don't know who Joementum is

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 19:35

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

i haven't listened to the new album but she had a song on Lemonade that was a pretty decent pop-country track.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 20:33

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

those silly poor people, why don't they just choose to get a high paying job

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 22:10

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

I can't find it with searches but someone in the last few weeks of the previous thread posted a graph, or a tweet with a graph, showing that it was like entirely part-time jobs being created, while full-time ones shrunk

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 22:58

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Gumball Gumption posted:

I honestly want to hear the Beyonce+Gillian Welch+Abigail Washburn album that exists in another universe

gently caress, so do i, that sounds incredible

# ¿ Apr 10, 2024 23:25

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/harbingerofwoke/status/1778152535137648860?t=_wcAagUeSTQ0D4oCEAnM9g&s=19

Can someone explain this because I don't get it

"You should vote for Democrats because you'll never get anywhere playing in your commie treehouse in the back yard, you have to change society from within. Accelerationism doesn't work because if the Republicans win, everyone just becomes defensive, not transformative. Socialism can only win when everyone in the country is in the right headspace for revolution. The Culture War is actually the most important war in American history. If the Democrats ever truly defeat the Republicans they'll immediately abandon all minority protection pretenses and fill the void the Republicans left. That's when we'll strike from within their party and present our socialist alternative and everyone will love us. If you don't join and vote for the Democrats, you'll just rot in obscurity as a minor independent party."

I might have missed some steps but that's the gist of it. this person writes like an rear end in a top hat and i could NOT be hosed to close read it all. lots of literary quotes and needless academic language to say "vote for Democrats".

as an editorial note, i'm pretty sure that their argument falls apart if you do even a little bit of community organizing.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 04:18

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Nichael posted:

I ended my climate rights presentation with this image because I don't trust ~~people~~ libs to get visual metaphors.

why didn't you photoshop the arrow going the other way

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 17:17

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Ham Equity posted:

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4586780-senate-democrats-baffled-by-calls-for-sotomayor-to-step-aside/

Yeah, I just can't imagine why after the RBG thing and then the Feinstein thing people wouldn't want soon-to-be septuagenarians in spots that get lifetime appointments coming into an election where their side is likely to lose.

The 77-year-old, 65-year-old, and 74-year old quoted in this piece are understandably confused (given their age).

I'd like to run a hypothetical forward. Trump is a legitimate threat to democracy. He will spearhead a Christofascist takeover of the USA. Any pretense of democracy is eliminated, Trump is our new dictator on day one. In that scenario, do Sotomayor and the other liberals on SCOTUS and in Congress plan to keep their jobs? Like, say that dictator Trump keeps SCOTUS around and doesn't even fire any of them, and for some reason he keeps Congress around even though they don't decide anything meaningful. Are they going to willingly keep their seats while America turns into Nazi Germany 3.0 and lend legitimacy to its government with their presence?

So why all this hand-wringing about careers? If there's a real chance of all the above happening, isn't giving up your position in government to help elect Biden a no-brainer decision?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 17:42

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Nichael posted:

I did end up doing that sorta. Started with the one pointing right then went to the true ending slide so the metaphor would become completely literal.

now i'm imagining a one-way sign with the arrow pointing down as a visual metaphor

also, neat! i've always been fond of the sincere approach to presentations. keeps it interesting for the audience

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 17:45

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Jen heir rick posted:

look, it's very complicated ok? lots of very smart people have looked into it, and this is just the best way to do it. loans can't just be forgiven. you have to apply formulas and poo poo until it adds up. interests have to be accounted for. middle men must be paid. otherwise it's unfair and profits might be lost.

relevant stakeholders must be included! you forgot to ask jesus and the banks whether it was okay to cancel loans!

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 17:47

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Biden may not be immediately responsible for failing to stop the repeal of Roe but he certainly is the national figurehead of the political party that did fail to stop it

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 18:02

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

spacemang_spliff posted:

couldn't biden just put loans in forbearance and set interest rates to 0% for the entirety of his presidency (thus giving people a reason to reelect him)

something something covid was emergency circumstances so Trump had legal justification to start it but Biden doesn't have it to continue it. i dunno. i agree with you.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 18:03

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

gradenko_2000 posted:

OJ Simpson, MF Doom and John Lewis blowing out RBG's back walls in heaven

New Warren blunt rotation

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 18:08

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

the president is only responsible for the failings of the American government if they're directly his fault. and possibly not even then. the buck stops somewhere over there

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 20:11

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

i need to know what food was served at this Presidential party before I can judge it. was it piles of cold hamburgers? if it was piles of cold hamburgers then Biden is clearly evil.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 20:35

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

i think you will find Joe Biden's "I'm happy Roe v Wade was overturned" party officially ended at 12:13 AM the next day, therefore it is incorrect to say that he threw a party "the same day". 4 flaming pinocchios

# ¿ Apr 11, 2024 20:57

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Raccooon posted:

Liberals are under the impression that the people are going to punish them unfairly by not voting for them. Like it�s a an active thing (which it may be for some). But the vast majority of the non voters are people that have checked out because they suck so much. And maybe sucking less might bring those people back, but instead they just scold people.

that's why i submit blank ballots instead of not showing up

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 17:16

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Chop Sewer

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 19:11

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

one of the first places i ever heard the "wine-dark sea" thing was from radiolab. you know, the same place that had Jonah Lehrer on as a frequent contributor before people found out he was a serial plagiarist and fabricator. so like, great track record for that show

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 21:49

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

VitalSigns posted:

But...like...there is blue in nature. Bluebonnets, bluejays, blueberries, turquoise, sapphires, lapis lazuli, the sky?

i don't mean to dispute the rest of your post since this is just pedantry, but it would have been very unusual for an ancient Greek to see a blueberry.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 22:07

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Shageletic posted:

I just read a pretty dire article about the Masaai people who have coexistence with the Serengeti for hundreds of years and whose grazing practices is partly responsible for the large amount of fauna found there, being pushed out due to UAE royal family members wanting a private shooting range with real animals in it and "conservation" organizations wanting to cleanse the area to increase safari bucks and also use it for carbon credits. And guess what caught my eye

Nothing changes.

can you share a link?

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 04:44

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Shageletic posted:

Prepare to get depressed

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...-z0yVqNs5lSIAYP

thanks!

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 21:06

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

the President could stop inflation at any point they wanted with a price freeze, so any inflation that does happen is their responsibility

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 00:03

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

I think it takes some real guts to actively spite the viewer with a depressing ending to a long running story, all for the gall of asking for a concrete conclusion for the main character, and taunt them about how bad it will be before they commit to reading it

Like it would be one thing if DT7 just ended the way it did without that. Not like King hasn't written depressing endings before. But twisting the knife like that in the process? That's a "gently caress you for reading my book" with few equals

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 18:24

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 00:02

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

I was actually having a conversation last night about Needful Things and how nothing loving HAPPENS in it. Like, The Stand is a doorstop but there's a lot of book in that book. Needful Things was like a short story collection with three novels worth of filler

# ¿ Apr 14, 2024 18:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Succ] Now Welcoming Debbie Wasserman Schultz to Team Genocide Denier

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