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habituallyred posted:Its funny. When the Grey Knights were the tippy top forces made of gene seeds embezzeled from the tithe and the loyalist remnants of the traitor legions I disliked them. Now that the Custodes are an actual army I don't mind them. When something even more boring shows up, the second most boring thing suddenly doesn't look bad. I don't mind GKs, but their baby carrier is still one of the worst looking units made. Fun fact, the plot for this game was written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Who also write Emperor's Gift, which is also about Grey Knights and one of the few Space Marine books I've read and liked. I had forgotten he wrote the plot for this and assumed they had gotten Ben Counter for it, who also wrote a bunch of GK books back in the day. Cooked Auto fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 11:26
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ADB is one of the single digit amount of black library writers who can actually write, now I have expectations of this game.
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Apr 10, 2024 12:29
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Cooked Auto posted:
For those who are unaware, the monstrosity in question CAuto refers to is this. It's certainly up there as the worst model GW released, though I'm sure others can find other terrible, terrible models (this piece of crap being a close contender).
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Apr 10, 2024 12:37
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Cooked Auto posted:When something even more boring shows up, the second most boring thing suddenly doesn't look bad. They're the worst when they're 'Space Marines, but better'. The Golden Boys showing up took some of that energy, but I also think they were helped by the Primaris as well, because while those are also Space Marines But Better, they also turned down the Space Marine heraldry in favour if a more streamlined 'high speed, low drag' NerfTM high-tier special forces operator direction for Astartes, so now Grey Knights are the 'older 40k' cousins who wear ornate embossed armour and have archaeo-tech and tchotchkes and gribblies as wards against whatever weird poo poo they have to deal with today. A nice middle ground between the nuMarine full tacticool and the Custodes Old 'height of the Imperium, more civilised time' ceremonial (but still functional) gear. Of course, between custodes, grey knights, Agents of The Imperium, Imperial Knights, Mechanicus, sisters of battle, Guard, primaris marines, 'firstborn Astartes' (not that those really exist anymore), and the four? Flavours of 'special snowflake space marine', the Imperium alone probably makes up the majority of the factions involved, half of which also have a different version with spikes (Chaos variant)
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Apr 10, 2024 12:53
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Torchlighter posted:now Grey Knights are the 'older 40k' cousins who wear ornate embossed armour and have archaeo-tech and tchotchkes and gribblies as wards against whatever weird poo poo they have to deal with today. Black Templars were that, too, especially after the redesign made them into hosed-up looking Knights with candles and little guys and poo poo. They weren't just "Marines but moreso", they had a theme going on. Grey Knights? Whomst?
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Apr 10, 2024 13:26
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Jade Star posted:
One small thing: just how much damage reduction does half or full cover do?
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Apr 10, 2024 13:30
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DTurtle posted:Having just watched the video, I have to agree that the targeted destructible terrain is really awesome. Took me a bit to understand that you were choosing where exactly the fire from the brazier would go. And smashing down the statue (both via range and especially via melee) was suitably effective. I thought half was a flat -2, but googling suggests half cover removes half your (starting) damage. Which if you add in range penalties gets pretty rough with early guns that only do 4. Full cover when it applies fully is just lol no as Jade said in the video. I think there's an angle where full cover becomes partial before you are flanked? But never tested.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:02
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DTurtle posted:Having just watched the video, I have to agree that the targeted destructible terrain is really awesome. Took me a bit to understand that you were choosing where exactly the fire from the brazier would go. And smashing down the statue (both via range and especially via melee) was suitably effective. And again, anyone who enjoys this game, check out Mechanicus if you haven't. Same kind of game, also with no hit chances, every shot that can draw line of sight and is in range will hit. And I just can't sing the praises of that soundtrack enough. It's incredibly unique. Instead of being the Emperor's special bois you're playing as Tech-priests (Like Lunete, our Space Chen here) *The minds of an ancient race cursed with cancer-ridden short lifespans transferred into immortal skeleton robots of living metal. Only the top their of the civilisation got advanced enough bodies to retain their full mind and personality and the lower in the ranks you get the less is retained. The basic grunts are basically zombies, but they're all armed with guns that disassemble your molecule layer by layer. And to those of you familiar with Warhammer Fantasy, they're kind of Tomb Kings in space. https://youtu.be/9gIMZ0WyY88?si=jq_702mkYB5TaH-7 Groetgaffel fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 14:03
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The Inquisition declared hinges heretical back in M37. It's all sliding doors now. I didn't know this game existed and if I didn't have other poo poo to do (and, uh, play) right now, I'd probably give it a shot because it seems pretty fun. Add another "this is pretty cool" comment for the destructible terrain. Crushing a bunch of plague-ridden cultists like the bloated cockroaches they are by dropping some saint's statue on them just feels right. Samovar posted:It's certainly up there as the worst model GW released, though I'm sure others can find other terrible, terrible models (this piece of crap being a close contender). Paint that thing red, add a mekboy's special touch, and replace the smurfs with a couple of speed freeks and maybe you could make something out of it? But otherwise, oof.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:15
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Samovar posted:It's certainly up there as the worst model GW released, though I'm sure others can find other terrible, terrible models (this piece of crap being a close contender). They seem to have forgotten the front half of that car.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:24
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I love the gunner having more protection than the driver.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:26
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Samovar posted:For those who are unaware, the monstrosity in question CAuto refers to is this.
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Apr 10, 2024 15:29
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NGDBSS posted:How does that thing even turn!?
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Apr 10, 2024 16:06
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It stops, reverses the wheels on one side, and spins in place like a cheap rc car.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:20
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So much hate on the wonderfully goofy Marine Kart. There's many silly space marine models. A regular marine moves 6" per turn. This thing moves 3". Somehow. It can also charge people and beat them up in melee.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:34
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I mean if you spin around fast enough.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:36
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Groetgaffel posted:There's many silly space marine models. A regular marine moves 6" per turn. This thing moves 3". Somehow. It can also charge people and beat them up in melee.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:37
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Jade, I changed my Steam name from Implied Palantìr to Arrow Spider Grenades.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:38
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Another honorable mention is Battle Brother Tinnitus here.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:52
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A form of penitence after losing to noise marines, no doubt.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:11
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Samovar posted:It's certainly up there as the worst model GW released, though I'm sure others can find other terrible, terrible models (this piece of crap being a close contender). Someone asked "whatif Batman Tumbler, but Space Marine", and lo it was made canon.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:25
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Groetgaffel posted:Another honorable mention is Battle Brother Tinnitus here. BROTHER I
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Apr 10, 2024 20:32
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Partial cover is a flat -1 and Partial Full Cover, which is very silly, is -2. Partial Full Cover is being in full cover but the attack is coming from a sharp angle, where the shooter is almost flanking the target. There are also modifiers for range. A 10 tile range bolter suffers -1 dmg beyond half range, and -2 at long range. Given the small spread of tiles, I'm not exactly sure where the break points are, if -1 starts on tile 5 or on tile 6. And not sure where -2 starts either. But this leads into another good point of game mechanic/design to discuss! Damage and HP totals are tight and remain tight throughout the game. Our standard bolter deals 4dmg and an end game master crafted tier 3 bolter might do as much as 6. Same goes for most melee weapons, though they are a little more likely to reach to 7 dmg, but often at the expense of some utility or some other feature of the weapon. So by and large you can consider the range of 4-7 as the rule of thumb for what is considered a powerful weapon. Enemies also mostly follow this rule. The weakest cultists do 3 with an autogun. As soon as we see some real nurgle units you can expect Chaos Marines to shoot with the same 4dmg bolters we have. Something carrying a plasma cannon might do 6 and shred armor, and a melta might do 7 or 8. Damage values don't inflate very much over the course of the game and this is sort of necessary with the systems the chose to go with. With how cover works as a straight dmg modifier cover becomes less valuable as attacks become stronger. A -1 value vs a 8 dmg attack is less valuable than a 3 dmg attack. However damage per attack never gets so high as to find cover meaningless. With cover and range penalties even a 8 dmg attack can lose half of its power before hitting a target.
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Apr 11, 2024 01:13
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Right now we are just playing cultist whack-a-mole, more reactive than proactive. Hopefully we get a good lead soon.
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Apr 11, 2024 01:38
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It is also worth noting that for most guns, range feels short. In my opinion. I ended up having to try and flip the frustration on it's head and think of it as 'point blank' being a bonus. The game wants to reward you for getting in there and getting your kill on. Sadly very early on your max HP isn't very high so it can feel pretty dicey and scary.
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Apr 11, 2024 01:54
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Range feels short for everything in the game, and I think I have a moment in the next video to expand upon the nuances and difficulties of how the range of everything works out.
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Apr 11, 2024 01:57
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Tylana posted:The game wants to reward you for getting in there and getting your kill on.
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Apr 11, 2024 02:58
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I actually think it's another piece of smart game design. Having the guns effective at short range, and dropping off at longer ranges makes it easier to keep your squad together. Both to help prevent your melee specialist from being completely isolated, and especially saves you the frustration of having a sniper spend 27 turns jogging from the other side of the map to join the rest of the team. And because the guns are limited mostly on range, but still punchy in the damage department, that incentivices engaging in melee without making the guns feel anaemic.
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Apr 11, 2024 03:35
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When did this stun patch drop? I beat the game back in september and I remember making heavy use of stun/excecution chains. I think it relied on a bolter that had boosted stun damage and a glaive that either had bonus AP on excecute or bonus stun damage as well, I don't think I would've handled the final mission without being able to clear pods in a single turn. Edit: Oh and while the Chaplin should've been perfect for this combo I found it to be the absolute weakest of all classes. The core set of Justicar/Purgator/Interceptor/Apocthecary are all pretty much better than their counterparts. CheeseThief fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 19:22
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It's very funny to me how far they had to scale the grey knights back in order to have an actual game, and I know it made a specific set of people very angry when the game released. Regular space marines are already nigh-unkillable superhumans in power armour, and grey knights are even more ridiculous on top of also all being space wizards. Lorewise, I'm pretty sure nothing we've seen so far should even be capable of hurting a grey knight, never mind taking a hit from one and surviving. Like, take those little wrist mounted guns our guys are using. Those are not actually guns. Regular, modern day guns are called "stubbers" in 40k, and they're the things our cultist buddies are using. By 40k standards, they're really a joke. The basic space marine weapon is called a bolter, and it's a sort of rapid fire RPG launcher. Each round is a tiny rocket with an armour piercing tip that waits until it's inside a target before exploding and making a gigantic mess of whatever you happened to shoot with it. They're huge and powerful enough that regular humans can't use them at all, but space marines generally fire them one-handed to leave oe hand free for melee. Strap two of them together and make it wrist mounted and you have the storm bolters our grey knights are using! They like to have both hands free for using giant halberds and swords, see. A regular human being hit by one should really be turned into a fine red mist, but then we wouldn't have much a game to play, and also this makes a specific kind of nerd unspeakably angry so it's probably for the best.
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Apr 12, 2024 20:56
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This just goes to show how powerful the Blessings of the Plaguefather are if they can turn random mooks into beings capable of slowing down grey knights. Contrast that to the long and arduous process of making a single space marine, which was developed by the emperor himself mind you, and you start to wonder if maybe the Chaos Gods are in a class of their own in terms of power and the rewards that They offer. Not a cultist btw just asking questions here.
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Apr 12, 2024 21:12
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CheeseThief posted:When did this stun patch drop? I beat the game back in september and I remember making heavy use of stun/excecution chains. I think it relied on a bolter that had boosted stun damage and a glaive that either had bonus AP on excecute or bonus stun damage as well, I don't think I would've handled the final mission without being able to clear pods in a single turn. Early on in 2022. It might even have been the very first actual patch, come to think of it. On release, Stun values were slightly lower across the board and also did not scale with difficulty. This meant that speccing for stun/execution chains was highly optimal - if you could execute an enemy in 4 or fewer AP, your actions were effectively free since an execution gives you a total of +4 AP to work with. Given that many enemies in the early game had 4 stun, the only challenge became figuring out how to not kill them in order to trigger the execute and refund AP. Litany of Hate gave you a slightly larger buffer to work with (+1 AP per execute, up to 3x/turn when fully upgraded), and the existence of +stun dmg gear made this easier and more efficient, as executing enemies while spending fewer than 4 AP gives you a net positive on AP spent, giving you a buffer to spend on movement/wave the flag/other abilities to keep the chain going. It was extremely strong, far stronger at clearing pods than any other strategy, and subsequent patches confirmed that trivially chaining executions was clearly not intended behavior. We won't see a Chaplain for a while, but if you slept on the Chaplain? You were missing out. I will go into this in more detail later on in the videos, and Jade and I have different opinions on specifics, but there are no bad classes and almost no completely worthless skills. Some are better than others, but nearly every selection is viable - as long as you are picking skills with intent in mind. Obviously it's possible to cripple a Grey Knight by picking a scattershot of minor boosts and skipping all of the major abilities; that's not really what we're talking about here. Instead, the bar for what constitutes "good enough to use" is shockingly low - because of the way weapons and wargear and other Grey Knights interact with your decisions on the battlescape, not everything is at it appears in a vacuum. Some things are extremely strong if you lean into them. Others, merely okay. There is a lot of variety to be had!
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Apr 12, 2024 21:12
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Olesh posted:I will go into this in more detail later on in the videos, and Jade and I have different opinions on specifics, but there are no bad classes and almost no completely worthless skills. Some are better than others, but nearly every selection is viable - as long as you are picking skills with intent in mind. Obviously it's possible to cripple a Grey Knight by picking a scattershot of minor boosts and skipping all of the major abilities; that's not really what we're talking about here. Instead, the bar for what constitutes "good enough to use" is shockingly low - because of the way weapons and wargear and other Grey Knights interact with your decisions on the battlescape, not everything is at it appears in a vacuum. Some things are extremely strong if you lean into them. Others, merely okay. There is a lot of variety to be had! That's good to hear. There's a lot of games out there which have the 'correct' path to choose for your characters unless you want to struggle the whole way through the game. Or even just the clearly superior option that is nerfing you if you don't use it. Looking at a few Xcom abilities here for both things I said. Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Not a cultist btw just asking questions here. Sounds like something a cultist would say. Better execute you just to be safe.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:09
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Mr. Vile posted:It's very funny to me how far they had to scale the grey knights back in order to have an actual game, and I know it made a specific set of people very angry when the game released. Regular space marines are already nigh-unkillable superhumans in power armour, and grey knights are even more ridiculous on top of also all being space wizards. Lorewise, I'm pretty sure nothing we've seen so far should even be capable of hurting a grey knight, never mind taking a hit from one and surviving. Most of this is wrong, some of which because it would be cooler for the setting if certain things were true and some of which is wrong because people repeat wrong things they heard or misunderstood other people say, and some of which is wrong because the lore is wrong. Here's the semi-quick rundown, because I don't really want to get too bogged down in fictional lore debate - a bolter is, lore-wise, a gyrojet firearm. This is a very sci-fi cool type of weapon (that really existed! kind of) that, instead of an explosion propelling the bullet out of the barrel, fires small rockets that propel the projectile (called microjets in real life), which itself uses the gyroscopic spin effect to stabilize itself and continue on a straight path during flight. This means that, unlike a regular firearm, gyrojet weapons don't reach their maximum speed (and thus velocity) until they finish expending all of their fuel (which isn't that much) - effectively, there's an optimal range, and less kinetic energy is applied the closer the target is. This also means that, unlike a regular firearm, gyrojet weapons don't apply most of their propulsive force to the firearm - gyrojet rockets are fired with very little recoil. As such, even though bolter rounds are larger than most conventual personal ammunition, there's little reason why human-sized bolters would be problematic - and as it turns out, bolters have been a wargear option for regular human troops at least as far back as 4th edition. Bolter rounds are .75 caliber micro rockets, or roughly equivalent to a 19mm cannon round. Certainly dangerous! (But not "fine red mist" levels, which isn't even supported by the fiction.) Gyrojet weapons, being tiny rockets, have to accelerate not only the bullet but (like any other rocket) also the fuel as it burns, which is why during testing, gyrojet weapons often didn't even break the sound barrier - they didn't get fast enough before their fuel ran out. In short, gyrojet rockets lose energy because they're carrying more mass (in the form of propellant and the rocket body) compared to a regular firearm cartridge, which just propels the bullet.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:15
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It should probably be noted that unlike real gyrojets, bolter rounds do in fact have a standard propellant charge in addition to the on-board propellant, so there is recoil.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:39
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Always thought that was the drat point of Gyrojets. Much less recoil for underwater/space combat.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:42
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The bolter ammunition is kind of like a shotgun slug, but instead of, well, the slug, there's a gyrojet round. And this actually makes sense! A rocket is more effective the faster it's moving, so assuming you solve the engineering issues, giving the gyrojet an initial kick out of a conventional cartridge case solves the rocket burning most of its fuel just leaving the gun. Several novels describe the sound of firing a bolter as a dual bang-roar. First the initial charge, then the solid fuel rocket igniting. There's also a plethora of different bolts. The standard rounds have a diamond tip and a small explosive charge that detonate inside unarmoured or lightly armoured targets. It'll punch through a flak jacket, that being pretty much a modern kevlar vest, which is what guardsmen wear, struggle against carapace armour, think ballistic plates on top of the aforementioned flak armour, and it'll bounce off power armour. Space marine on space marine combat with bolters come down to hitting the soft spots in joints between the plates. Particularly the neck, which is why post-heresy designed power armour has a raised gorget. E:this should be about the same effect on target as a bolt round: https://youtu.be/AXaaybiRiYY?si=92q95wotgIVFtDy3 Messy, but far from red mist. Heavy bolters shooting, (my estimation) around 40mm shells would be firmly in the chunky salsa territory. Then there's stalker bolts, these are formed from specialised stalker bolters with longer barrels. They have more propellant, and no explosive charge relying entirely on kinetic energy. Meant for snipery things. There's bolts with incendiary gas that sets fire to anything close to the impact, ones filled with acid or specialised virus payloads tailored against specific biological foes. And then there's the ones our Knights use, psybolts. They're imbued with psychic energy that makes them devastating against daemons, who are otherwise pretty unbothered by bullets and lasers. Either you need to chop them up with melee weapons or move up to cannon shells. Bolters used by unaugmented humans are generally scaled down to around .50 cal, since a marine boltgun is just too big and heavy to use. Now, there are some very old references to bolters being caseless. This can be disregarded as all such official mentions are old and from before the setting was nailed down. Even then, even the first models from the 80s still had ejection ports on the guns anyway. Groetgaffel fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 00:19
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Groetgaffel posted:Several novels describe the sound of firing a bolter as a dual bang-roar. First the initial charge, then the solid fuel rocket igniting. The best one being from the first Inquisitor War novel. Where the sound is described as RAARK-pop-SWOOSH-thud-CRUMP. Also one of those books who says it has no recoil.
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Apr 13, 2024 01:05
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Cooked Auto posted:The best one being from the first Inquisitor War novel. Where the sound is described as RAARK-pop-SWOOSH-thud-CRUMP. the Inquisition War books are fascinating, and also half of the Black Library's output was dedicated to invalidating anything ever written in them for pretty good reasons at the intersection of 40K and Horny Author there lies a great darkness. shame, the joke at the end of them is genuinely a great 40K moment. for the uninitiated: after having spent the entire last book trying to ressurect his assassin waifu, Our Hero, having succeeded, is -IMMEDIATELY- reduced to flesh-ribbons by the ressurected assassin because she thinks she's still in the fight that killed her and has had an illusion thrown at her to distract her, and she then hauls rear end off into the Webway to try to finish the fight. the watching Squat and Imperial Fist say "Well, that was about the best outcome possible. So, want to go off and have adventures literally anywhere else?" Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 01:39
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Cooked Auto posted:Where the sound is described as RAARK-pop-SWOOSH-thud-CRUMP.  Me and da boyz luv a gud krump
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