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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:This just goes to show how powerful the Blessings of the Plaguefather are if they can turn random mooks into beings capable of slowing down grey knights. Contrast that to the long and arduous process of making a single space marine, which was developed by the emperor himself mind you, and you start to wonder if maybe the Chaos Gods are in a class of their own in terms of power and the rewards that They offer. That's a pretty good explanation for why the Grey Knights aren't ripping through dozens of human cultists since normal space marines in lore are supposed to be at least worth ten guardsmen. That and it'd probably get boring if every pod of cultists consisted of forty-nine enemies you needed to kill while they were all but helpless against your men.
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Apr 13, 2024 02:13
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The first Inquisition War book is probably the best one, because it has a plot to it that isn't boiled down to Draco going "My waifu  " after getting laid.It does also have a reference to Ian Watson's other 40k book, Space Marine, with mentioning the main character ofi t in a comment. His name? Biff Thundrish.
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Apr 13, 2024 02:15
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the Inquisition War books are fascinating, and also half of the Black Library's output was dedicated to invalidating anything ever written in them for pretty good reasons Well then. I suppose that's as 40k as it gets. At least he got to be happy for about... 5 seconds before he got turned into a finely diced pile of flesh? That's more than most in the universe.
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Apr 13, 2024 03:13
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Not if you're an Ork. The Orks are having a blast, almost all the time. Nurgle followers also tend to be pretty happy and jovial. Hell Grandfather Nurgle himself is basically Santa Claus. All his presents are disease-themed though, but hey you'll also never be in pain again! 
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Apr 13, 2024 04:32
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Groetgaffel posted:Not if you're an Ork. The Orks are having a blast, almost all the time. Ignorance is bliss 
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Apr 13, 2024 05:22
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I have seen it said that the Orks are the only really happy group in the entire setting, because they live to fight and there's always something you can fight.
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Apr 13, 2024 08:07
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Now I want a game in the style of the old xcoms but with orks. And have an insane amount of them die charging into battle, but you always just grow new ones and hand them barely functional weapons you scrap together by slapping together various bits of tech you scavenge off the dead.
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Apr 13, 2024 08:19
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Chaplins own. You may have to know what you're doing with them now though since Litany of Hate isn't a slam dunk OP as gently caress choice. I certainly will have to show them off. Nurgle wont be able to help the first great unclean one I come across if I get a properly set up Chaplin. Marine on Marine bolter fights: At some point I want to see if I can get Original Chaos Gate running and recording. Because the start of the game is marine on chaos marine bolter fights and it is a slooow process.
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Apr 13, 2024 09:42
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Jade Star posted:Chaplins own. You may have to know what you're doing with them now though since Litany of Hate isn't a slam dunk OP as gently caress choice. I certainly will have to show them off. Nurgle wont be able to help the first great unclean one I come across if I get a properly set up Chaplin. Tabletop rules, circa 3-5th edition 40k, that scenario worked out something like this. Squad of 10 marines, shooting at another squad of marines, not using Rapid Fire. Roll 10 d6s, a 3+ roll is a hit. Bolters are strength 4, marines are toughness 4. Each successful hit wounds on a 4+. Bolters are AP5, marines have 3+ armor save, so each successful wound gets a 3+ armor save to negate. How many kills are inflicted from a whole squad of marines shooting at another squad of marines? Marines only have a single wound, so every successful unsaved wound is a dead marine. How many shots does it take to wipe an entire 10-man tactical squad? On average, it takes nine shots for a space marine to kill another space marine. It takes an average of 90 shots to wipe out an entire 10-man tactical squad.
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Apr 13, 2024 10:30
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These days armour piercing is a modifier, bolters get a -1, so it's 4+ for the marines to not eat a wound. On the other hand, all marines have a base 2 wounds now, so while I haven't done the maths, I think it's even slower going now.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:07
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Then Plague Marines get a flat 1 in 6 ignore damage IIRC? Thankfully not in this game.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:31
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Solarium posted:Now I want a game in the style of the old xcoms but with orks. And have an insane amount of them die charging into battle, but you always just grow new ones and hand them barely functional weapons you scrap together by slapping together various bits of tech you scavenge off the dead. That's basically how I took care of the final boss when playing the Dawn of War II: Retribution campaign as da boyz. Built nothing but regular boyz with choppas and shootas and sent wave after wave to krump that big stomp bait dweeb. White Coke posted:That's a pretty good explanation for why the Grey Knights aren't ripping through dozens of human cultists since normal space marines in lore are supposed to be at least worth ten guardsmen. That and it'd probably get boring if every pod of cultists consisted of forty-nine enemies you needed to kill while they were all but helpless against your men. Right? Again, not a cultist, hate 'em in fact, but seems to me that if you missed the boat on becoming a space marine when you were young, then accepting the Blessings of the Chaos Gods is probably the only way to have some agency in this dangerous universe instead of spending your entire life being told what to do before being murdered by some random ork. It's a wonder more people aren't taking advantage of that especially since those Blessings are basically given out for free. Or so I've heard.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:56
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Aren't bolters specifically not anti-armor weapons, but instead meant for space marines to take on large numbers of unarmored (essentially modern day body armor) soldiers during the great crusade?
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Apr 13, 2024 15:16
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Soylent Pudding posted:Aren't bolters specifically not anti-armor weapons, but instead meant for space marines to take on large numbers of unarmored (essentially modern day body armor) soldiers during the great crusade? Bolters were much easier to make and maintain in huge numbers, and they are effective enough. As I said earlier, there's armour piercing ammo for bolters, but that's not really implemented until the Heresy, because they're not shooting at power armour for the most part before that.
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Apr 13, 2024 16:45
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:That's basically how I took care of the final boss when playing the Dawn of War II: Retribution campaign as da boyz. Built nothing but regular boyz with choppas and shootas and sent wave after wave to krump that big stomp bait dweeb. The thing is that Chaos Gods give their followers a real shot at becoming all powerful. Sure, it might be one in a thousand billion, but when you’re an imperial citizen, that is compelling. Also not a cultist.
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Apr 13, 2024 16:58
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The vast, vast majority of imperial population have no idea that chaos exists. They'll never see a real space marine, only statues and art, unless they live on one of the few worlds with a chapter monastery. There's even entire hive worlds that believes xenos of any kind is just a tall tale. Most citizens live and die in their same hab block and workplace doing their assigned menial labour all their life, many not even learning to read beyond deciphering the road signs around them. The mortals that do manage to attract the attention of Chaos almost always do so by blind chance. It's not exactly an option to just wake up one day and say "Imma be a chaos cultist now!"
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Apr 13, 2024 17:09
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Jade Star posted:
It's like the maps are on top of a giant table. Between that and the art style, this is one of the few Warhammer games that leans into their existence as models.
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Apr 13, 2024 17:23
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Groetgaffel posted:The vast, vast majority of imperial population have no idea that chaos exists. People tend to forget the insane scale that WH40K takes place on. It's the entire galaxy. ALL of it. And most is owned by the Imperium. Most humans inside aren't going to know poo poo about a bunch of xenos that nobody on their planet has ever even heard of before in centuries, especially when the Imperial education system isn't the best for normal citizens. There's usually 1000 space marines in a chapter. 1000. In the entire galaxy. Even if you combined all the chapters together at ~1000, you get 1 million. To spread across an entire galaxy. Unless the space marine has poo poo to do on your backwater hive city and it passes right through your house, you are never seeing one. It's the equivalent of seeing an angel, and is even described as such. Chaos in particular gets covered up constantly. Even the primarchs, the emperor's special little boys, never got told about them since just knowing Chaos exists risks getting corrupted hy chaos. Obviously this plan backfired when the primarchs ended up encountering chaos unprepared, but knowledge is still kept on a need to know basis. Even high up officers in something like the Astra Militarum are only going to be told about Chaos if they're likely to end up encountering it personally. Even then, it'll just be the absolute basics, with stuff like the 4 gods of chaos being kept evem more hush hush.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:00
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Interestingly in 40k they have Beastmen, much like in Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar, however unlike in those settings they’re not inherently tied to the Chaos Gods, they’re abhumans like Ogryns or Ratlings. Unlike them, who while second-class citizens are treated with some level of dignity, Beastmen are treated with outright contempt, and while they also get conscripted they’re treated mostly as cannon fodder (which is saying something for the Imperial Guard). Unsurprisingly this mostly drives them into the waiting arms of the Dark Gods. Heck an interesting detail is that the Horus Heresy put out a free army list for the Imperialis Militia, basically the various planetary defense forces/cultist uprisings/assorted other forces that were drafted into the Heresy. You can take various rules to represent the background of your force and one option is Beastmen auxiliaries, and the mini lore blurb notes that while even in the more ‘enlightened’ 30th millennium that they were just as intelligent and loyal as regular humans. And their descendants are still being driven to the Dark Gods because of humans being dicks. Honestly one of the major reasons the Tau were able to expand so quickly until the Imperium proper noticed was because they offered an actual improvement on conditions for Imperial citizens. Even if (as per their newest codex) they will sometimes straight up displace entire planetary populations to resettle Tau if they feel the Greater Good demands it. At least you still get to live!
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Apr 13, 2024 18:39
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As long as we're doing the 40k thread thing and immediately devolvinng into lore chat: In all the 11 million pieces of written words on 40k, has anyone ever talked about chaos dudes that aren't soldiers? Is there some khornate mechanic that gets really angry at the gaps he's welding shut and the screws he needs to tighten? A Nurgle doctor that fixes dudes up after the fighting is over and gives them a few new friends inside them to boot? Nurgle butchers that only sell meat well past its date? I feel there is some very tappable stuff for chaos society while it's just chilling in the warp being all chaos-y
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Apr 13, 2024 19:04
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I would think that things like the multiple Dark Crusades would make Chaos known to even relatively low-ranked people in the imperial guard and the imperial navy. Yeah, they're gigantic decrepit organizations and all that, but having entire sectors being controlled by Chaos and having to bring in half of the segmentum's battle fleet to push it back means word would get around. I think events like the fall of cadia are also known to rank-and-file guardsmen? Or even just the existence of cadia in the first place kind of makes one ask "so what's so important about that place?" and the implications of that. Then there's also the Horus Heresy. The feast of the emperor's ascension is the most important holiday in the imperium so I'm not sure how you'd have that but also simultaneously hide the existence of Chaos.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:10
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I feel like the answer to that question is that the average citizen's life kind of sucks so you have more pressing and immediate concerns to worry about than pondering those questions. With an additional side order of the people who ask those questions out loud having a bad habit of getting immediately black-bagged by Imperial authorities in one form or another and never seen again, so you eventually learn to just stop asking questions entirely "Blessed are the ignorant" and such.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:17
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I think my statement from before was a bit too broad tbf. As has been pointed out, Chaos does cause a lot of trouble. To bring it back to this game in terms of relevance, we see the Grey Knights we're a part of immediately go from fighting Khorne to a brand new outbreak of Nurgle. Chaos is constantly loving around everywhere. You also have all the gospel and preaching about heretics and all that in the church, which has only grown more powerful over time. So it's safe to say that every imperial citizen at least knows of Chaos existing. The big thing is that very, very few of them know how it actually works. Even the guards who heard about the Fall of Cadia would only know it as "yeah chaos hosed poo poo up there". Outside of it being a vague nebulous force that we should kill, they aren't kept in the know. The average guardsmen wouldn't be able to tell if the daemon was working for Khorne or Nurgle unless someome told them before they got brutally murdered. Again bringing it back to the game: Grey Knights are probably some of the most well informed on general chaos business. It's their one job to fight chaos all over the galaxy. The only reason this isn't just another Tuesday is cause of the former leader getting murderized and our ship getting hosed.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:01
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TheNabster posted:I feel like the answer to that question is that the average citizen's life kind of sucks so you have more pressing and immediate concerns to worry about than pondering those questions. To quote previous co commentator, "an open mind is like a fortress with its doors open and unguarded".
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Apr 13, 2024 20:32
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One of the other roles the Grey Knights serve is helping clean up after they’ve killed off a daemonic infestation. There was a formation called the Grey Knight Redeemer Force you could take in the Apocalypse expansion for 40K which had a special rule where the other player would gain control of them once they had no Chaos models left. I doubt you’ll do anything like that in the game but it would be lore accurate if there was an epilogue where you had to decide between executing everyone or being merciful and sterilizing them before sending them to die in labor camps.
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Apr 13, 2024 23:53
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White Coke posted:One of the other roles the Grey Knights serve is helping clean up after they’ve killed off a daemonic infestation. There was a formation called the Grey Knight Redeemer Force you could take in the Apocalypse expansion for 40K which had a special rule where the other player would gain control of them once they had no Chaos models left. I doubt you’ll do anything like that in the game but it would be lore accurate if there was an epilogue where you had to decide between executing everyone or being merciful and sterilizing them before sending them to die in labor camps. That makes me wonder what we're doing most of the time, at least in these early missions. Cause all we're doing is killing like, maybe a dozen cultists each time we visit a planet? That seems remarkably small scale considering some of the landscapes we've seen. I guess they're just the forces propagating an existing infection, and by killing them we get rid of the source? Then I guess the only people who need to get mindwiped and sterilized would be those nearby the arenas we fight in.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:27
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I imagine the 40k media kinda skews public perception as well. Exterminatus is probably *much* more rare than the frequency of it's appearance in the books would imply.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:46
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Solarium posted:You also have all the gospel and preaching about heretics and all that in the church, which has only grown more powerful over time. So it's safe to say that every imperial citizen at least knows of Chaos existing. At no point does capital C Chaos get mentioned. The inquisition have sterilised entire planets just because the plebs heard something about Chaos. E: I think it's in hollow mountain, but it's one of the fairly recent books set on Terra. In any case, there's a parade and they very specifically celebrates the Emperor's nine divine demi-god sons. Horus is mention as a devil defeated by the Emperor. The public knows nothing about the the Heresy, traitor primarchs, or capital C Chaos. Groetgaffel fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 01:05
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White Coke posted:One of the other roles the Grey Knights serve is helping clean up after they’ve killed off a daemonic infestation. There was a formation called the Grey Knight Redeemer Force you could take in the Apocalypse expansion for 40K which had a special rule where the other player would gain control of them once they had no Chaos models left. I doubt you’ll do anything like that in the game but it would be lore accurate if there was an epilogue where you had to decide between executing everyone or being merciful and sterilizing them before sending them to die in labor camps. I wonder if this is where the, um , raw material for the Edict’s servitors is coming from.
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Apr 14, 2024 07:27
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Solarium posted:That makes me wonder what we're doing most of the time, at least in these early missions. Cause all we're doing is killing like, maybe a dozen cultists each time we visit a planet? That seems remarkably small scale considering some of the landscapes we've seen. I guess they're just the forces propagating an existing infection, and by killing them we get rid of the source? Then I guess the only people who need to get mindwiped and sterilized would be those nearby the arenas we fight in. These starter mission are very bland with what we're doing. Kill a couple dozen cultists and maybe poxwalkers isn't really much in a grand setting. It's tutorial land though, and those missions are behind us. By the next video, which I definitely didn't delay by loving up my audio and rerecording commentary with Olesh a second time, we will start to see missions with real objectives that relate to the bloom and the objectives will change based on how bloomy a planet is, and if the bloom is trying to spread off planet.
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Apr 14, 2024 10:46
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That is a reason Ector, Lunette and one other character we will meet soon are so annoyed at the Inqusitor. Why are we being forced to sit here mashing dumb cultists the local militia can deal with when the ship needs repair for deployment to an actually Bad Thing?
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Apr 14, 2024 13:34
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Groetgaffel posted:A heretic is anyone who doesn't follow the commands of the Imperial church. Those get public executions. Huh. I'll accept it as "one of those things" that's part of the lore even though it feels weird to me.
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Apr 14, 2024 13:38
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FoolyCharged posted:As long as we're doing the 40k thread thing and immediately devolvinng into lore chat: The Black Crusade RPG deals with various Chaos controlled planets and societies. Yvonmukluk posted:I wonder if this is where the, um , raw material for the Edict’s servitors is coming from. Possibly. Many servitors are made from clones but transformation into a servitor is a common punishment. Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Huh. I'll accept it as "one of those things" that's part of the lore even though it feels weird to me. The Imperium wants people to be on guard against heresy (questioning authority) but not to know that heresy can get you cool super powers. As bad as Abaddon's Black Crusades are, and they're supposed to be the worst Chaos attacks against the Imperium, nothing has come close to the scale of the Horus Heresy and even in that many planets rebelled without knowing anything about Chaos they just saw an opportunity to escape from Imperial rule or threw in on what they thought would be the winning side.
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Apr 14, 2024 18:38
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:I would think that things like the multiple Dark Crusades would make Chaos known to even relatively low-ranked people in the imperial guard and the imperial navy. Yeah, they're gigantic decrepit organizations and all that, but having entire sectors being controlled by Chaos and having to bring in half of the segmentum's battle fleet to push it back means word would get around. I think events like the fall of cadia are also known to rank-and-file guardsmen? Or even just the existence of cadia in the first place kind of makes one ask "so what's so important about that place?" and the implications of that. Then there's also the Horus Heresy. The feast of the emperor's ascension is the most important holiday in the imperium so I'm not sure how you'd have that but also simultaneously hide the existence of Chaos. I believe the general gist of it is that prior to the 13th black crusade, Anything involving chaos was papered over in some way to make it so that Chaos wasn't known to the wider audience. The most obvious example of this is that after the First War for Armageddon (where Angron showed up and the Grey Knights had their first MAJOR battle), the Inquisition deliberately killed the entire population of the planet and resettled it to prevent the knowledge of Chaos existing. At the same time, the Fallen Primarchs aren't even acknowledged within the Imperium. That said, the 13th crusade changed EVERYTHING. Hard to hide chaos when the Astronomicon goes out and the galaxy is split in half by a warp rift. Also Bobby Ultrasmurf taking back the reigns of the Imperium means that he's been making it a lot less about brutal suppression of anything that doesn't show the Imperium as the best and greatest.
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Apr 14, 2024 18:48
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A couple of books and short stories under the Gaunt's Ghost umbrella also deals with living on Chaos occupied worlds. Then there's also Daemon World by Ben Counter that sort of deals with that topic. As for Servitors, I'd recommend looking up Flesh and Steel by Guy Haley for a rather grisly description of what that might entail. A lot of the stories are kind of bad at establishing what the common people know, but there are occasional stories where people's ignorance about Chaos will end up badly for them. For instance there's Liberation Day by Matthew Farrer that place on a Ork held space hulk and the resistance on board there. At one point they manage to pick up a message that a bunch of Marines are on their way to save them, much to their joy obviously. But in the end their savours turn out to be Iron Warriors chaos space marines, and things don't end too nicely for everyone else involved. But that story does play a lot with what the average Imperial citizen do and don't know. Which isn't much. Cooked Auto fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 18:50
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FoolyCharged posted:As long as we're doing the 40k thread thing and immediately devolvinng into lore chat: Some of this will be explored in- game, and a certain amount of Chaos logistics gets handwaved as either 'stick a daemon in it' or 'Chaos gods will it, and time in the warp is...malleable'. But as for society in general, a relatively solid source for what it's like is the Gaunt's Ghosts series. While the books are very much from an imperial perspective, and therefore mostly detached and really only deals with frontline forces, the viewpoint is only from various human perspectives and can be read between the lines both about being a poor sod at the lowest end of the Chaos Totem pole and also, in some cases, what is like to be a loyal Imperium human trapped on a Chaos held world in realspace. Turns out, mostly really fuckin' bad. E: fb
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Apr 14, 2024 18:58
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It should be said that the Sabbat Crusade series (because at this point it has sort of expanded beyond just the Ghosts of Tanith) does present Chaos in a slightly different way. For while there are also the kind of crazed cultists you usually see in 40k media, the main antagonist that crops up later on is essentially a dark mirror of the Guard. In that it's a organised army of professional soldiers fighting for Chaos. Two even as things progress. It's a shame that GW doesn't really want to acknowledge the Blood Pact (Or the Sons of Sek for that part) with that the Lost and the Damned only being a cursory thing in the rules. Because it's a really interesting way of portraying Chaos more as a Martial thing rather than just mutations and warp fuckery. And there is still plenty of warp fuckery to go around I should add.
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Apr 14, 2024 19:07
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White Coke posted:The Imperium wants people to be on guard against heresy (questioning authority) but not to know that heresy can get you cool super powers. As bad as Abaddon's Black Crusades are, and they're supposed to be the worst Chaos attacks against the Imperium, nothing has come close to the scale of the Horus Heresy and even in that many planets rebelled without knowing anything about Chaos they just saw an opportunity to escape from Imperial rule or threw in on what they thought would be the winning side. Even if we say Abbadon didn't start right away after the heresy, that's still a good 700 years between each. As for the great rift and Chaos, warp storms are common enough knowledge, but that's more under the general "space sucks" header. The entire galaxy was shrouded by warp storms making all warp travel impossible for a good five thousand years between mankind's golden age and the start of the great crusade. Guardsmen that have fought Chaos might have some basic knowledge of Chaos, but to the vast majority of mankind they're at most hosed up mutants that are traitors to the Imperium.
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Apr 14, 2024 19:09
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Cooked Auto posted:It should be said that the Sabbat Crusade series (because at this point it has sort of expanded beyond just the Ghosts of Tanith) does present Chaos in a slightly different way. I think I'm fine with that on smaller scales, or individual forces within chaos, but chaos as a whole should be focused around warp fuckery and the like. It's called chaos for a reason. Like in this game so far, where the threat of chaos is not "oh they're mounting an organized invasion into the region" it's "HOLY gently caress THEY COULD BE ANYWHERE!" The most insidious part of chaos is how just knowing about it puts you at risk, and not knowing about it makes you vulnerable too. It's like a shield which also acts as a powerful magnet, drawing all the bullets toward you. I'm sure we'll eventually get some big bad who's behind all this that we have to take out, but the xcom style of missions popping up randomly all over the place works for how I personally see Chaos as a whole. If this was like, the Death Guard invading it would make more sense as an organized force.
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Apr 15, 2024 07:27
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The imperium is :Well I forgot to fill out form 6dshxgzy6 in triplicate, so I guess I am doomed to work the space abestos mines for ever and my family is doomed to work them for the next 209 generations. Chaos is: Whoops one of my chaos higher ups/the gods got bored of me so now my lungs will turn into flesh maggots slowly devouring me while puppetering my body around murdering those I love because they find it funny. Or in other words the Imperium is a fascist burecratic nightmare who will absolutely murder you and your city over a paperwork error or because it's just easier than actually doing a thorough investigation. Chaos is just going to horribly murder, abuse and mutiliate you and your city because it's funny
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Apr 15, 2024 09:03
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