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Spakstik posted:I'm optimistic that Into Darkness will be a lot less bumbling now that they've established all of the characters and shed the trappings of the old Trek series/films, but we'll see. I really dislike it because it wouldn't be that hard to make it good. So much of the writing was just so goddamn lazy. I do agree this one has the chance to be better. Even in the trailers you can see that some of the characters are actually MOTIVATED by something at least, so maybe they'll actually be part of the plot this time rather than being dragged along. And if they can actually give Cumberbatch some humanity and a good story, he could easily be one of the best Trek villains, the competition is pretty low.
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Apr 21, 2013 19:23
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bobkatt013 posted:Lets not forget that the director was a complete idiot. He thought that Geordi was an alien. I'd love to hear this story. Is it something you pick up on from the special features on the DVD or what?
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Apr 21, 2013 21:33
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ApexAftermath posted:I'd love to hear this story. Is it something you pick up on from the special features on the DVD or what? Interviews with Levar Burton
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Apr 21, 2013 22:22
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AlternateAccount posted:And if they can actually give Cumberbatch some humanity and a good story, he could easily be one of the best Trek villains, the competition is pretty low. Nero and Shinzon were just one-dimensional badguys who were all, "Argh! I'm going to blow up Earth because. . . stuff!" Khan at least had the motivation of revenge because his wife was killed, and even the guy from Insurrection had a motivation what was understandable. I sort of liked Soran from Generations because he was just an obsessed person who wanted to get back into heaven due to his tragic life being too unbearable. He wasn't really going out of his way to kill people, they were just in his way. I'm right there with you, in that Cucumberpatch should have some manner of real motivation instead of, "Ahhhhh I hate Kirk and Earth!" or it's just going to be another badguy who is evil because... "stuff".
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Apr 21, 2013 22:52
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Maybe he was seriously ticked off to discover Kirk had half inched his apple from his packed lunch while doing the Kobayashi Maru simulator. There are three F's you don't do to a man. You don't gently caress with his wife, you don't gently caress with his car and you don't gently caress with his food.
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Apr 22, 2013 00:14
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Blistex posted:Nero and Shinzon were just one-dimensional badguys who were all, "Argh! I'm going to blow up Earth because. . . stuff!" Khan at least had the motivation of revenge because his wife was killed, and even the guy from Insurrection had a motivation what was understandable. I sort of liked Soran from Generations because he was just an obsessed person who wanted to get back into heaven due to his tragic life being too unbearable. He wasn't really going out of his way to kill people, they were just in his way. Maybe it's a stupid question, but what makes a character one dimensional? That they're cookie cutter or that their motivation is hollow? I'd never argue that Shinzon or Nero were complicated characters. But they had motivations that, while not the focal point of the story, are evident and meaningful. I'm wondering if Into Darkness won't be TWoK reversed. This time, it's Kirk chasing HIS white whale.
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Apr 22, 2013 00:56
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Great_Gerbil posted:Maybe it's a stupid question, but what makes a character one dimensional? That they're cookie cutter or that their motivation is hollow? To me, a one-dimensional villain is a character who's motivations are either not explained, or make no sense. Both Shinzon and Nero wanted to destroy Earth because...? I can sort of see Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan because it was Spock's home, and Nero saw his destroyed "at the hands of Spock"*, but Earth was just tacked on to keep the stakes high. Shinzon on the other hand makes no loving sense. *apparently trying to save your planet and failing is vicious intent.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:12
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Blistex posted:To me, a one-dimensional villain is a character who's motivations are either not explained, or make no sense. Both Shinzon and Nero wanted to destroy Earth because...? I can sort of see Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan because it was Spock's home, and Nero saw his destroyed "at the hands of Spock"*, but Earth was just tacked on to keep the stakes high. Shinzon on the other hand makes no loving sense. I thought he wanted to destroy earth because it was also Spock's home. It was also where starfleet was based and they said they would help and failed.
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Apr 22, 2013 02:50
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Blistex posted:Khan at least had the motivation of revenge because his wife was killed Nero also had the motivation of revenge because his wife was killed.
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Apr 22, 2013 03:35
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Something I noticed in the Into Darkness trailer when I went to see Oblivion (go see this movie) today: In the scene right after Cumberbatch unloads on that meeting room, when you see a close-up of him in that helicopter thing, there are some golden light-wave-things around his face/head. In the youtube videos I thought they were maybe just reflections or some kind of heads-up display, but seeing them on the big screen they were much more obviously not just that. I wonder if it's some sort of personal holograph costume thing or something similar.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:08
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WarLocke posted:Something I noticed in the Into Darkness trailer when I went to see Oblivion (go see this movie) today: It's been a while since I last saw JJTrek, but I thought that was the new transporter FX.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:10
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Yeah, that's totally just the transporter effect.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:13
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He's obviously beaming out of his little assault ship.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:20
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bobkatt013 posted:I thought he wanted to destroy earth because it was also Spock's home. It was also where starfleet was based and they said they would help and failed. Nero also interpreted that failure as deliberate malice. He's a space-truther.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nero also interpreted that failure as deliberate malice. He's a space-truther. At the same time, he's exactly the same as those Neo-Confederates who went back in time to give AK47s to Southerners.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:47
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And he was accidentally captured by the Mexicans and only escaped years after the Civil War was done.
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Apr 22, 2013 04:49
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AlternateAccount posted:I really dislike it because it wouldn't be that hard to make it good. So much of the writing was just so goddamn lazy. Even JJ has agreed with you here, but there wasn't jack poo poo he could do with the script. The guild was on strike, so they had to roll with a much earlier draft script than most people would have liked. If I'm remembering right JJ is a member of the guild as well so he couldn't make notations on the fly either without breaching his obligations to them, so everyone basically had to conform to the script as written (IE not well) which wasn't great. For what they had to work with they did a fantastic job. Into Darkness doesn't have the same restrains, however, so I will probably be more critical of it if it isn't written much better.
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Apr 22, 2013 05:27
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Good point, I suppose. I know I'm being ignorant of the realities of the business of filmmaking, but if that was the script that I HAD to stick to, I'd rather just shut the whole thing down and wait until we could do some actual writing rather than turn in what we got. Oh well.
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Apr 22, 2013 06:23
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AlternateAccount posted:Good point, I suppose. I know I'm being ignorant of the realities of the business of filmmaking, but if that was the script that I HAD to stick to, I'd rather just shut the whole thing down and wait until we could do some actual writing rather than turn in what we got. Oh well. In a world without schedules and production costs, JJ Abrams probably would have liked to delay photography as well. But the strike happened far enough into production that the cast and crew would already have other projects lined up after ST was scheduled to wrap, so delays to principle photography wouldn't be an option, and the studio would already have sunk quite a lot of cash into the film, so there's no way they'd just release everyone from their contracts and let the film disappear because JJ didn't like the current draft. I do think they did a phenomenal job, given the situation. Especially the editing team, which managed to smooth out a poo poo-ton of hiccups and create a film that works really well viscerally.
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Apr 22, 2013 07:25
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ODC posted:Nero also had the motivation of revenge because his wife was killed. True, but Spock and the Federation didn't personally maroon her on a planet next to a Supernova like Kirk did... I just now realized how much they recycled from Wrath of Khan! bobkatt013 posted:I thought he wanted to destroy earth because it was also Spock's home. It was also where starfleet was based and they said they would help and failed. That still doesn't make sense to me. Spock and the Federation use their fastest ship to try and stop a supernova. Spock races to the source, drops the red matter, but it is too late, Romulus is destroyed! It seems lazy. That would be like making a move about a husband who loses his wife in the WTC attack, and decides to kill everyone in the New York Fire Dept, for not preventing the attack. But, because it's "space" this line of thinking is totally acceptable.
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Apr 22, 2013 13:29
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Blistex posted:True, but Spock and the Federation didn't personally maroon her on a planet next to a Supernova like Kirk did... I just now realized how much they recycled from Wrath of Khan! That does not matter. He still blames them that they did not do it fast enough. Also Kirk did not know that it is was a supernova and just as logical as Nero. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 13:32
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Blistex posted:That would be like making a move about a husband who loses his wife in the WTC attack, and decides to kill everyone in the New York Fire Dept, for not preventing the attack. Can I just say I would watch this movie? We could call it Last Firehouse on the Left. 
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Apr 22, 2013 13:35
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Blistex posted:That still doesn't make sense to me. Spock and the Federation use their fastest ship to try and stop a supernova. Spock races to the source, drops the red matter, but it is too late, Romulus is destroyed! It seems lazy. That would be like making a move about a husband who loses his wife in the WTC attack, and decides to kill everyone in the New York Fire Dept, for not preventing the attack. But, because it's "space" this line of thinking is totally acceptable. On the other hand, there are people who do believe the government deliberately allowed or even committed the WTC attacks and many of them ate violent. So,
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Apr 22, 2013 13:44
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Nero is a TERRIBLE villain with the worst motivation, sure. The writers were in a really tough spot because you're rebooting all these characters as baby space men so there's really no plausible way to create any sort of serious villain that has a personal connection to them and a decent motivation without it seeming absurdly contrived. It probably would have been a better choice to tone down the scale a bit and forego to the old-Spock tie in and time travel(ugh, do you remember that awful poo poo with Kirk somehow remembering a lightning storm or whatever?) bullshit. Just use one of the go-to villains like the Romulans or Klingons. The result and box office pretty clearly showed that people were going to show up to see the new cast do its thing regardless, so just use some of the old standbys.
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Apr 22, 2013 14:33
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AlternateAccount posted:(ugh, do you remember that awful poo poo with Kirk somehow remembering a lightning storm or whatever?) What's wrong with Kirk being familiar with the circumstances of his father's death? There were plenty of survivors from the Kelvin, including his mother, so it's not like nobody was around to tell him that the ship that killed his father emerged from a space storm.
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Apr 22, 2013 15:10
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bobkatt013 posted:Also Kirk did not know that it is was a There is a difference though. Kirk physically put Khan and his wife on that planet.* Spock and the Federation did not put Nero's wife on Romulus, and even tried to save them. *technically, Khan chose to be put there, but the only other option was prison. Anyway, I think a lot of 2009's flaws can be blamed on the writer's strike and JJ being unable to do anything about the script due to membership obligations. Given that there isn't a strike now, Into Darkness doesn't have that excuse, and JJ and crew should be able to put a little more effort into the script to give us a villain who is more than a Snidely Whiplash saying, "I wanna destroy Earth sooooooOOOOoooo Baaaaaad!" (spoken in Macho Man Randy Savage's Voice)
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Apr 22, 2013 15:14
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Dudes in this thread bitchin' about Nero keep forgetting Bana's amazing line deliveries. He gave it his all and I loved it.
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Apr 22, 2013 15:18
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LesterGroans posted:Dudes in this thread bitchin' about Nero keep forgetting Bana's amazing line deliveries. He gave it his all and I loved it. "Hi Christopher, I'm Nero."
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Apr 22, 2013 15:18
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BrandonGK posted:"Hi Christopher, I'm Nero." Good god, that is one of my top two favorite line deliveries in that movie. The other being "SPOOOOOOOOOOCHHHH!!!! SPOOOOOOOOOCHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" He really crunches down on Spock's name there.
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Apr 22, 2013 15:21
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BrandonGK posted:"Hi Christopher, I'm Nero." Exactly. One of the best lines of 2009.
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Apr 22, 2013 15:21
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jivjov posted:Good god, that is one of my top two favorite line deliveries in that movie. The other being "SPOOOOOOOOOOCHHHH!!!! SPOOOOOOOOOCHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" "IT DID HAPPEN! I SAW IT HAPPEN DON'T TELL ME IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!" Even better was his constant changing of accents and inflections throughout the film, as if Bana was constantly trying to figure out what character voice he wanted Nero to have (especially in his early scenes).
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Apr 22, 2013 15:35
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BrandonGK posted:"Hi Christopher, I'm Nero." Everyone in the theater gave me strange looks when I cracked up at this line. (Watched it opening day in Korea)
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Apr 22, 2013 15:51
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LesterGroans posted:Dudes in this thread bitchin' about Nero keep forgetting Bana's amazing line deliveries. He gave it his all and I loved it. The cut down speech to Kirk from the trailer is still one of my favorite parts of the entire ST09 experience. James T Kirk was a great man...but that was another life!
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Apr 22, 2013 15:57
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Blistex posted:True, but Spock and the Federation didn't personally maroon her on a planet next to a Supernova like Kirk did... I just now realized how much they recycled from Wrath of Khan! You're right. It's almost as if you would have to be insane to make that sort of connection! Maybe that line of thinking would be one a crazed insane villain follows... naaaah. Edit: Not only that, but he had already accomplished his original goal (with an added unexpected bonus of not only making Old Spock watch his entire planet die, but Young Spock watches his mother die right in front of him. Two for the price of one!), so I guess he decided to step it up a notch. And I'm pretty sure you could make a good movie about a husband who goes insane after his wife dies and lays the blame on the people who tried saving her. I'm pretty sure there's one or two movies like that around and I'm pretty sure this happens in real life. stratdax fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 22, 2013 |
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Apr 22, 2013 16:06
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Let's get Q. Jim Carrey is Q and he is here to have fun with Kirk since Picard isn't any fun, Sisko punched him, and Janeway doesn't want his babies. A Q movie. It'll be like Jackass only with jerk Gods who jerk the universe around and are a bunch of cocks. Literally. "Mr. Sulu put it on screen." *screen full of dickbutts*
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Apr 22, 2013 16:09
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Great_Gerbil posted:On the other hand, there are people who do believe the government deliberately allowed or even committed the WTC attacks and many of them ate violent. So, Nero as a Truther is hilarious and at the same time oh so perfect.
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Apr 22, 2013 16:39
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The circumstances surrounding the destruction of the Kelvin and Kirk's father's death have got to have made the event at least as big as the sinking of the Titanic. There's no question that people who know their naval history (i.e. Starfleet naval officer candidates) would know most of the weird details surrounding it and it makes extra sense that Kirk would be the one to make the connection. Hell, Pike even wrote his dissertation around it.
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Apr 22, 2013 16:44
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Astroman posted:Nero as a Truther is hilarious and at the same time oh so perfect.  WOLF 359 WAS AN INSIDE JOB
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Apr 22, 2013 16:55
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Aatrek posted:
It, uh, it actually was. That's not a crazy conspiracy at all.
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Apr 22, 2013 16:57
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:It, uh, it actually was. That's not a crazy conspiracy at all. If you look carefully at this grainy scanner recording you can see Admiral Hanson's "flagship" didn't have any nacelles!
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Apr 22, 2013 17:58
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