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The thing with all the supplemental material stuff is even if it is canon (and I wouldn't put it past Anno just to make a bunch of bullshit up for the guys who made that game) you're not really supposed to know any of it whilst watching the series, everything is supposed to be vague and people messing with stuff they don't really understand.
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May 6, 2013 19:54
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Perhaps the same could be said of all science fiction.
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May 6, 2013 20:38
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Ka0 posted:Perhaps the same could be said of all science fiction.
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May 6, 2013 20:54
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Probably, but its expressed so well in Eva. I thought the movie Southland Tales did it very well too. Q: If scientists now dug a proto-god out of the antarctic ice, what would they do? A: Shoot monkeys into it. Yep, we'd totally do that.
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May 6, 2013 20:54
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's pretty interesting that We still haven't seen the Evangelion Unit-01 since it ascended to godhood. The only bit of it we saw was the eye and that was still spewing god-lasers around. I thought it was cute with the whole scene explaining to Shinji that he can't pilot Unit 1 because he has a 0% sync rate; foreshadowing(telling us) that we won't see Unit 1 at all during the movie. You know it will make an appearance in 4.0, it's iconic to the series.
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May 6, 2013 21:00
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The Riddle of Feel posted:The Adam and Lilith stuff totally undermines the presentation in the series, where it's all literally magic being manipulated (poorly) by science. Evangelion is partly a story about the arrogance of man trying to master forces beyond human understanding. I don't think so - there are lots of things which are introduced with a secular use which is later trumped by their true, symbolic function, eg the AT fields begin as a plot device and end up as Identity; you could do the same with the lol aliens if you introduced it early enough. Even reinforces this theme as the scientists think "oh, it's just an alien" - well, only literally.
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May 6, 2013 21:50
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Lyer posted:I thought it was cute with the whole scene explaining to Shinji that he can't pilot Unit 1 because he has a 0% sync rate; foreshadowing(telling us) that we won't see Unit 1 at all during the movie. Well since Unit 13 looked functionally identical to it, it's really just splitting hairs.
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May 6, 2013 23:00
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I absolutely can't wait to see how SRW handles this.  It's gonna be hilarious.
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May 6, 2013 23:39
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ShardPhoenix posted:This blog was linked in the Gargantia thread and has quite an interesting take on the 3.33. I do feel though like people are awfully quick to go, "Eva is designed to gently caress with all you nerds except me, the one guy smart enough to really get it It sounds more like "Eva is designed to gently caress with all you nerds including me, to the point where watching it is an exercise in masochism, but I think it's important to tough it out." Which is a really dumb thing to say and falls apart if you actually stop and dig for a minute. Misato isn't Gendo 2.0; she's angry at Shinji out of guilt, something Gendo's completely incapable of. What Rei lacks isn't her mind (her internal confusion is still there), it's her will, which she rediscovers at the end of the film. Asuka's not "a professional soldier with no warmth;" Mari practically beats the audience over the head with clues that she cares about Shinji and just expresses it through anger, with the primary difference being that in Rebuild her anger is justified. The movie sets up a battle between hope and self-determination (Wunder/Wille) and fatalism and self-annihilation (Nerv/SEELE), with Shinji as the fulcrum, and spoilers: hope and self-determination win. The tragedy is that as an Angel and SEELE's creature Kaworu doesn't really understand how self-determination works until it's too late. He walks easily and unaided where Shinji stumbles and needs a hazmat suit. He knows that Shinji's actions were the direct cause of Third Impact, and therefore assigns him full guilt. His misguided plan to steal the spears and achieve Shinji's redemption for him is interrupted by Gendo changing just one detail, and ruined by Shinji grasping for it anyways. But it makes no sense for Kaworu to take on Shinji's guilt and die smiling if the film is supposed to condemn Shinji for being pro-active; he dies to give him a second chance to get it right. Now granted, that's pretty bleak. But the only way to mistake it for "joyless" is to read everything that happens really superficially and pay no attention to why the characters do the things they do. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 6, 2013 |
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May 6, 2013 23:40
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". But yeah, there's definitely an element of that.
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ImpAtom posted:I absolutely can't wait to see how SRW handles this. Hey, a timeskip means that much to the chagrin of everyone, they have an easy method for fitting Gundam AGE into this!  Though my guess is we'll have to wait for the last movie to finish before seeing a proper SRW-showing. Which is probably for the best, considering how underwhelming Rebuild was in L.
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May 7, 2013 00:12
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Oh, and something else that reminded me of: He's right that somebody wanted a totally mindless doll-Rei, but it wasn't the audience or any of the usual audience surrogates. Not only is Shinji totally repulsed by her, it's also subtly implied that he's wrong and cowardly for shunning her, which sabotages the "be careful what you wish for" reading. The one who wanted it was Gendo. In the original series (and maybe in Rebuild 1+2 as well? I can't remember) Gendo treats Rei II with affection, even if it's only because he sees Yui in her. Her death is an accident and he resurrects her as Rei III as best he can, memories and all, and is genuinely shocked and betrayed when she doesn't go along with his plan. As per usual, he's a terrible father and an inconsiderate human being, but it's more to do with obsession and tunnel-vision than outright malice. Rebuild Gendo doesn't screw around with any of that. He creates a human, feeling Rei in order to anchor his son emotionally, gloats at the circumstances of her death, and may even have arranged them. Then, satisfied that she served her purpose, he makes Rei III a totally obedient blank slate. This is what Rebuild Gendo wants from his children: for them to be passive tools in his design. Ironically it may even have been her interactions with Shinji (of all people!) that set Rei III on her way to independence. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:45 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 00:42
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Having watched Original Eva + EoE + rebuild 1-3 all in a row for the first time, I think this franchise is pretty great. There was an awful lot I didn't like about the original run, though, and I absolutely hated almost everything about EoE. I dragged my feet going into rebuild, but became pleasantly surprised at how great the whole thing was. Nearly everything I disliked about the original run was fixed in rebuild. I think even if the over analyzing going on in this thread is all for nothing and we receive another big trolling from Anno, the journey was still worth it. Movies with these kind of production values don't come along often, I was absolutely floored by the sound design, soundtrack, and animation. When I can, I look forward to experiencing it in my surround. I think Rebuild holds up on those merits alone, even if the story flops. While Rebuild still has several unanswered questions (many of which I don't expect will be answered), it should be noted how much easier it is to understand the narrative. The original run was far more confusing in just about every respect, and laid on the technobabble even thicker. I find Rebuild is just much easier to digest, and the removal of navel gazing is a welcome change. If I were to take a cautionary guess, (it IS Anno we're talking about) Rebuild is going to end on a more hopeful and victorious note, at least as much as this franchise could.
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May 7, 2013 01:19
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Everything I would have brought up about Evangelion 10/3 has already been detailed in the CIA documents. Instead, I'll say that I legit burst out laughing when the EVA 13 display showed a cartoon heart when it approached the barrier blocking the spears. I also thought the scene at the end with Asuka trying to get a response out of Shinji and dragging his rear end through the desert was adorable  . Of course Asuka's taking Shinji back to a fleet full of people who hate him, but still.
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May 7, 2013 02:06
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Srice posted:Hey, a timeskip means that much to the chagrin of everyone, they have an easy method for fitting Gundam AGE into this! If memory serves they also try to keep to a 2 year rule for shows, granted that has a tendency to get ignored from time to time. So chances are it'll be in the second or third Vita one if the drat platform lasts that long.
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May 7, 2013 05:53
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I doubt it'll happen, but I can see Rebuild being used in a satisfying way with what we have now. I said before, while I expect there to be twists, the story's very plainly set up for a final throwdown between Wille and Nerv to prevent/launch the Final Impact - SRW wouldn't really have to make up that much to give a satisfying conclusion to what we have now, IMO.
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May 7, 2013 07:16
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Can someone explain how Kaworu went from being the 1st to the 13th angel, and how in doing so does stuff happen?
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May 7, 2013 09:17
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Ak Gara posted:Can someone explain how Kaworu went from being the 1st to the 13th angel, and how in doing so does stuff happen? The combined effects of the two Lances of Longinus, the 12th Angel, Shinji and bullshit
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May 7, 2013 09:34
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Ak Gara posted:Can someone explain how Kaworu went from being the 1st to the 13th angel, and how in doing so does stuff happen? Adam was the first Angel. Kaworu isn't Adam, exactly, but he has Adam's soul in a human body. But even in that body he also fulfills whatever criteria make you an Angel, so he's also the 13th. Every version of Instrumentality / Nth Impact requires an Angel as one of the triggers. So Kaworu's presence in Unit-13 is part of why it awakens, and one of the reasons he blames himself instead of Shinji.
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May 7, 2013 09:42
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Thanks that makes things a lot clearer 
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May 7, 2013 11:12
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Why were there two Spears of Longinus anyways? Was that Gendos doing? And if so, how? Why was Kaworu so convinced there would be two different spears and why was he so distraught when there were two of the same spear? And.. stuff. I'm just too stupid for this franchise I think. All this mysticism Kabalah whatever stuff doesn't interest me in the slightest and I'd rather have some actual explanations or at least insights as opposed to "lol this is all a big metaphor for Anno, the audience and something I already forgot". Maybe I'm just too old for anime tropes these days, I have no idea. I love all this crap and love watching it but I honestly can't make heads nor tails of it most of the time.
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May 7, 2013 13:34
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abraxas posted:Why were there two Spears of Longinus anyways? Was that Gendos doing? And if so, how? Why was Kaworu so convinced there would be two different spears and why was he so distraught when there were two of the same spear? And.. stuff. I'm just too stupid for this franchise I think. All this mysticism Kabalah whatever stuff doesn't interest me in the slightest and I'd rather have some actual explanations or at least insights as opposed to "lol this is all a big metaphor for Anno, the audience and something I already forgot". Maybe I'm just too old for anime tropes these days, I have no idea. I love all this crap and love watching it but I honestly can't make heads nor tails of it most of the time. That part is not actually explained except two of the same spears means Kaworu got his rear end tricked and he realized it.
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May 7, 2013 13:36
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abraxas posted:Why were there two Spears of Longinus anyways? Was that Gendos doing? And if so, how? Why was Kaworu so convinced there would be two different spears and why was he so distraught when there were two of the same spear? And.. stuff. I'm just too stupid for this franchise I think. All this mysticism Kabalah whatever stuff doesn't interest me in the slightest and I'd rather have some actual explanations or at least insights as opposed to "lol this is all a big metaphor for Anno, the audience and something I already forgot". Maybe I'm just too old for anime tropes these days, I have no idea. I love all this crap and love watching it but I honestly can't make heads nor tails of it most of the time. There really isn't an answer to that and isn't something to be concerned about other than: Shinji thought picking them up would fix everything, he was told not to by the person that gave him the idea to begin with, and he did it anyways.
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May 7, 2013 13:41
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It's pretty heavily implied that Gendo was involved in tricking Kaworu about the spears. There's plenty of varying theories and I personally believe that the existence of 2 spears of longinus in one universe confirms the loop theory, but regardless the short version is "there are 2 spears because gendo is a mastermind rear end in a top hat, yet again".
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May 7, 2013 15:11
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TARDISman posted:If memory serves they also try to keep to a 2 year rule for shows, granted that has a tendency to get ignored from time to time. So chances are it'll be in the second or third Vita one if the drat platform lasts that long. They got half way though 2.22 in L if memory serves making for a one year difference between it and 2.0 They could always play the two factions route from Z again. ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 15:23 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 15:13
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The whole two spears thing doesn't actually HAVE an explanation thus far, but if it helps, I can info-dump on you that, naturally speaking, in the Evangelion setting there are supposed to be two similar but slightly different lances, that of Adam, and that of Lilith. Adam's Lance was the only one actually seen in the original series, as the so called Lance of Longinus. Lilith's disappeared off somewhere and was never really important or explained. SEELE was able to reverse engineer Longinus somehow and mass produce inferior copies of the Lance in order to impose more control over the nature of third impact than should have been possible. Anyway, what I THINK happened here in Rebuild is that Kaworu came expecting Lilith to be impaled with both Adam and Lilith's associated Lances. What he found was, for whatever reason, two of Adam's Lance. The actual nature of the lances isn't understood well enough to say why this made a difference but needless to say it did. We don't know at this stage whether the two Longinus Lances were a result of Gendo taking out Lilith's Lance and replacing it, or whether Kaworu was deluded all along, or what. Furthermore, the reason that there are two lances is probably because either NERV/SEELE got really good at copying Lances in this alternate future, OR this is another thing to support the 'Rebuild as a sequel' theory where they are the Adamic Lances from the current and previous timeline, OR its some bullshit to do with the whole 'four adams' thing they have going on in Rebuild.
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May 7, 2013 15:26
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lodoubt posted:Anyway, what I THINK happened here in Rebuild is that Kaworu came expecting Lilith to be impaled with both Adam and Lilith's associated Lances. What he found was, for whatever reason, two of Adam's Lance. The actual nature of the lances isn't understood well enough to say why this made a difference but needless to say it did. We don't know at this stage whether the two Longinus Lances were a result of Gendo taking out Lilith's Lance and replacing it, or whether Kaworu was deluded all along, or what. I think it's odds-on that Cassius was what Kaworu used to shut down Unit 01 at the end of 2.22, if only because it looked nothing like Longinus and that doesn't leave a lot of options. So he has good reason to believe it's around there somewhere. Just to muddy the waters further, though, the multiple-Longinuses (Longinii?) thing was in 2.22, too:  That could be one spear for each of the four Adams, or it could be the other two are both Cassius. But there seems to be at least four genuine Lances floating around.
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May 7, 2013 15:51
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Thanks! I actually love being info dumped because, honestly, as I said in my previous post, I must be the most dimwitted Evangelion watcher this planet has to offer. I even sat down and watched all 3 Rebuilds in succession after my last post in here that had like a million questions and all it did was confuse me some more 
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May 7, 2013 15:56
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abraxas posted:I even sat down and watched all 3 Rebuilds in succession after my last post in here that had like a million questions and all it did was confuse me some more Nope, sounds about right to me
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May 7, 2013 17:07
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abraxas posted:Thanks! I actually love being info dumped because, honestly, as I said in my previous post, I must be the most dimwitted Evangelion watcher this planet has to offer. I even sat down and watched all 3 Rebuilds in succession after my last post in here that had like a million questions and all it did was confuse me some more If you aren't confused, it isn't Evangelion.  Forgot to edit my quickening and pregnancy post with this still that adds more to the idea:  Feels like the Curse of Eva is a reverse on pregnancy: rather than age/evolve/develop, being an Eva pilot keeps you developmentally stunted. Asuka and Mari are two of the very few that have otherwise been exactly the same after14 years. And Shinji never gets past being a pilot, shortly after saying he will never pilot again he ends up getting back into the Tang anyways.
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May 7, 2013 17:27
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After thinking about it, what was Gendo's aim at the end of the movie? If the 4th impact got off, all is well? If not, at the very least he got rid of Seele/Kaworu and all the angels?
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May 7, 2013 19:15
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Lyer posted:After thinking about it, what was Gendo's aim at the end of the movie? If the 4th impact got off, all is well? If not, at the very least he got rid of Seele/Kaworu and all the angels? Dude wants to pull off his Impact as near as we can tell but it keeps getting narrowly averted. He must be so pissed off by this point.
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May 7, 2013 19:46
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ImpAtom posted:Dude wants to pull off his Impact as near as we can tell but it keeps getting narrowly averted. He must be so pissed off by this point. The end of 3 had him saying something along the lines of "All according to plan.", he has been actively making everything work out a given way.
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May 7, 2013 20:38
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ImpAtom posted:Dude wants to pull off his Impact as near as we can tell but it keeps getting narrowly averted. He must be so pissed off by this point. Does Gendo want to be turned into orange goo so that he can be "reunited" with Yui? Or does he actually want Yui to be brought back to physical form? Or does he want to get contact-experimented so that he and Yui can be Evas together forever? *Not spoilering this because it's from a 5+ year old video game and it's all pretty obscure crap that will never be properly explained in the series. It'd just be too much exposition.* I love the Hacked Computer infodumps, I spent an entire day following link after link in the Eva Wiki and the story really is pretty epic. A race of beings called the First Ancestral Race seed life throughout the galaxy. They've never been seen but maybe they had something to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. The 'seeds' they send out are giant spacefaring vessels (or eggs) confusingly called Moons in the series. The moons impact planets, bury themselves under the surface and begin to create life somehow. I believe Adam arriving on Earth for the first time is the "First Impact", but it makes more sense for it to be Lilith crash-landing on Earth, and screwing up the plan. Even the First Ancestral Race knew that combining the seed of Life and seed of Knowledge is bad loving news, even though they created both types. The White Moon housed Adam, the seed of Life. He really got screwed over, Earth was supposed to be his. Moon's arrive with a Lance, which is a failsafe in case 2 moons land on a single planet. The Lance's put God-Seeds(whatever the hell they are) into permanent hibernation but do not seem to kill. Lilith, the seed of knowledge (on accident or because it is a jerk we will probably never know) crash landed on Earth but the Lance that was accompanying it got lost/destroyed. With the 2nd lance gone, the only available option was for the first Lance to activate and harpoon the thing it was paired with, Adam. Adam stayed in hibernation near the South Pole with a spear through it's back for centuries (millenia?) until Gendo Ikari uncovered it with the help of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Adam spawns life like the Angels. They share the order of our DNA sampling ACGT but they are composed of 4 unique wavelengths of light. The molecules are different but laid out 99.9% the same order as humans. Lilith creates life we know on Earth like bacteria, fish, goats, and ultimately Humans. It really seems like life is "programmed" to evolve and that humanity will always be the pinnacle of this evolution. Who knows what the ultimate form of life would be on an Adam-dominated planet. Maybe Grey haird red eyed humans like Rei and Kaworu, or maybe just crystalline towers. Gendo orders the scientific team to remove the lance before he gets the gently caress out of the South Pole. The lance is removed, some crazy thing happens, the team quickly tries to put the lance back in, and this causes the 2nd impact which turns the seas red, kills half the life on Earth and melts all the ice at the South Pole causing global flooding. Sometime during, or directly after the 2nd impact Adam is reduced to an embryonic state (This is the dinosaur fetus thing we see Kaji deliver to Gendo in a biohazard briefcase), and the Black moon is discovered along with Lilith. The giant cavern created by the hollow Black Moon is re-appropriated by Nerv, and renamed the GeoFront. Tokyo-3 is built above it. Adam's lance is transported to NERV HQ which is built around Lilith, and the spear is thrust into Lilith. Dumbest idea ever considering what happened the first time you stabbed an angel but whatever, Gendo. The wounds on Lilith bleed constantly in a never ending stream which is the source of the pool of LCL she is surrounded by, and is also the source of the LCL used in the Eva units. I believe the reason Lilith's legs are missing is because of all the physical samples they needed to take in order to create the Evas. Not too sure about that though. So where the gently caress is Lilith during the events of 3.3? We see Adam (Or at least the briefcase he is stored in) on Gendo's desk. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 20:51
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Of course, Gendo might just be aiming for "Make Shinji's life a walking joke" at this point.
ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 20:52
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ACanofPepsi posted:Does Gendo want to be turned into orange goo so that he can be "reunited" with Yui? Or does he actually want Yui to be brought back to physical form? Or does he want to get contact-experimented so that he and Yui can be Evas together forever?
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May 7, 2013 21:07
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Has anyone considered how the Angels are designed to suck? They have always very blatant weakness and every new angel doesn't really learn anything from the previous attack. This is actually a cliche in the giant robot genre, but Evangelion embraced it fully. Even Gendo's behavior of total faith on the Eva is almost a side-effect. As if he knows that the Angels are designed to be defeated and there's no way for Eva to fail.
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May 7, 2013 21:17
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Abalieno posted:Has anyone considered how the Angels are designed to suck? They have always very blatant weakness and every new angel doesn't really learn anything from the previous attack. This is actually a cliche in the giant robot genre, but Evangelion embraced it fully. The thing to note is that the Evas also have a massive and blatant weakness and the Angels have actually targeted that on a few occasions. (Need for power being the most obvious, but also the pilot's psychological condition, and NERV itself.) It's entirely possible they could have won if the Eva's weaknesses had come out as worse.
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May 7, 2013 21:24
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Abalieno posted:Has anyone considered how the Angels are designed to suck? They have always very blatant weakness and every new angel doesn't really learn anything from the previous attack. This is actually a cliche in the giant robot genre, but Evangelion embraced it fully. Evas are derived in part from the Angels anyways, so it isn't like they are in a different weight class, just not as refined or fantastic in design.
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May 7, 2013 21:40
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Abalieno posted:Has anyone considered how the Angels are designed to suck? They have always very blatant weakness and every new angel doesn't really learn anything from the previous attack. This is actually a cliche in the giant robot genre, but Evangelion embraced it fully. I dunno, the glowing angel-bird that mindraped Asuka didn't really have a "blatant weakness", or the big white floating circle thing that tried to meld with Rei or whatever. Or the the one that nearly killed everybody before Shinji showed up, kicked its rear end but then whoops 400% sync ratio. They do also mention in the series itself (it's when Misato is being interrogated by the colorful committee dudes after Shinji and his eva popped out of the big black and white ball that was a dirac sea angel, another angel with no discernible weakness whatsoever) that the Angels "seem to be working independently thusfar" or something like that. I guess the real question is why do they even have a "core" in the first place. Aren't the Angels supposed to be humans who ate of the tree of life rather than the tree of knowledge? Why don't we have big red cores inside of us? Doesn't Unit-01 eat the SS engine out of the previously mentioned almost-killed-everyone Angel? I'm pretty sure SS stands for Super-Solenoid, which is a thing related to electromagnetism. So why do they have big "engines" inside of them? Unless of course they just call it an SS engine for lack of a better name.
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May 7, 2013 21:47
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Suddenly the series has just made a lot more sense, even if 4.44 doesn't touch on this, I would consider this canon. Of course it's not a full explanation, and that doesn't account for a bunch of events in Rebuild, but it's certainly a good explanation to what's going on in the long run. Personally I'd be satisfied with 4.44 if they just have a resolution that doesn't end with everyone turning into goo. Basically just don't have an ending like EoE and I'll be able to accept it.
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May 7, 2013 21:53
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