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I believe that is from the Director's Cut version of that episode. Y'all need to watch the DC episodes, they're good!
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May 19, 2013 15:01
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Popcorn posted:
Thats from the directors cut, so if you only ever saw the originals as a kid youve got an excuse to rewatch.
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May 19, 2013 15:38
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Popcorn posted:
Nate RFB posted:I believe that is from the Director's Cut version of that episode. And loving horrifying, too.  It's amazing how much just a bit of a change can vastly alter one's perception of a scene. In the last third of that episode as originally released, the Eva graveyard the group passes by on the way down has the skeletons neatly laid out and fairly orderly. In the Director's cut? It's now a couple of giant pits with the skeletons of what looks like hundreds of failed Evas just thrown in like a lot of loads of garbage.
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May 19, 2013 15:55
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The DC content is in the first part of D&R right?
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May 19, 2013 17:16
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I don't think Death has all of it, just that it definitely has some of them. I don't seem to remember the above .gif being there, for example. What's also interesting about Death is that they clearly re-animated a few scenes from the earlier episodes. I specifically remember the part where Shinji runs over to a collapsed Rei from episode 1 being much higher quality in Death.
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May 19, 2013 17:26
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The "try smiling" bit from Episode 6 was also redone.
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May 19, 2013 18:25
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Man all these ideas, even the ones that are pretty out there, are really enjoyable to read. Even with the ones that my brain reacts to as "wrong" or "too technical" I'm still enjoying the human reaction and the connections being drawn. Really fun. I do think it would be cool to have some kind of outline in the OP of what's happening on a technical level. Maybe colorcoded to separate the easily confirmed stuff from the inferred stuff and the speculative? Maybe not even deal with heavily speculative stuff? It would just be good to have a nice, concise little explanation/reference thingy for us and newbs to refer to (every time I get back into Eva I feel like a newb again). I could start it but my knowledge of Eva is so lovely and confuzzled and I'm sure I make a lot of assumptions on stuff I believe to be "fact" when it's actually pieced together/implied or from the games rather than the series. A lot of the evageeks wiki articles don't have citations. Like how Adam lands in the White Moon with his Spear, Lilith lands in the Black Moon with no spear, necessitating Adam being deactivated by his spear, and Humanity uncovering him and waking him up starting the entire loving poo poo with the Angels. While this is not presented in the series, it's nearly legit canon from the games, and totally consistent with everything. Maybe this would be a different color from Fact. All I know is that this information helped me enjoy EoE even more, and it would be good just to have like, a reference sheet, but specifically coded to signify what's plainly fact and what isn't. What do you guys think? That or I feel like at least this should be in the OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho07Ag6lV9g (or any better equivalent) edit: or gently caress, I dunno, now I'm watching this again (it's been a while) and some of the stuff you guys have been saying contradicts some of this, and but I buy your explanations more (like gendo and seele's goals/motivations I still don't loving know if that's Adam or Lilith at Terminal Dogma in 1.11/2.22, I THINK I remember you guys saying it was Adam a bunch of pages ago? In the series it's Lilith right? But the Angels think it's Adam? How the gently caress do you trick Angels? If they're naturally drawn to Adam, then how--  Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, as far as the series + EoE goes, the relevant people are on record describing it as "a live performance" where they made up things as they went along. This sounds awesome, are there interviews of this I can read somewhere? (currently reading through http://www.gwern.net/otaku#conscience-of-the-otaking) mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 06:55 on May 20, 2013 |
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May 20, 2013 06:34
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Question, I'm rewatching the original series and about to reach the director's cuts. Should I watch first the standard version or the DC simply add material and so I'm not losing anything by watching the DC only?
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May 20, 2013 07:52
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The only thing the DC removes is the intro from Episode 22, which starts on a cold opening instead. Other than that, it only adds extra scenes and revamps the animation in others.
Utritum fucked around with this message at 10:33 on May 20, 2013 |
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May 20, 2013 10:30
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yellowjournalism posted:This sounds awesome, are there interviews of this I can read somewhere? (currently reading through http://www.gwern.net/otaku#conscience-of-the-otaking) There's a link to a huge collection of interviews in the OP. I think this is what Tuxedo Catfish was talking about : Wikipedia posted that Anno posted:"The development of Evangelion gives me the feeling of a ‘Live’ concert. Whether it was the story or character development, I made them without theory. During the development, while listening to various opinions, and analyzing my own state of mind, I kept questioning myself. I got the concepts from this personal stocktaking [self-assessment]. At first I thought I would produce a simple work featuring robots. yellowjournalism posted:I still don't loving know if that's Adam or Lilith at Terminal Dogma in 1.11/2.22, I THINK I remember you guys saying it was Adam a bunch of pages ago? In the series it's Lilith right? But the Angels think it's Adam? How the gently caress do you trick Angels? If they're naturally drawn to Adam, then how-- It's Lilith. yellowjournalism posted:I do think it would be cool to have some kind of outline in the OP of what's happening on a technical level. Maybe colorcoded to separate the easily confirmed stuff from the inferred stuff and the speculative? Maybe not even deal with heavily speculative stuff? It would just be good to have a nice, concise little explanation/reference thingy for us and newbs to refer to (every time I get back into Eva I feel like a newb again). That's not going in the OP. Partly because it doesn't fit its purpose, and partly because it gets too speculative and involved once we start getting into the details of how Instrumentality worked and I don't want to shut down discussion by presenting things as settled
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May 20, 2013 11:29
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House Louse posted:It's Lilith. Well, somebody says it's Lilith. But they've lied about that before, and it has the wrong mask for the entity we know was Lilith in the original series, while the one on the moon has the right mask. On the other hand the mask it does have looks very much like the faces of several of the Angels, which is why you get people saying it's Adam. Of course Rebuild has multiple Adams and all kinds of weird shenanigans going on so I'm not sure either statement is accurate, but it's definitely not cut and dried.
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May 20, 2013 14:14
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I meant in the series, but as you're talking about Rebuild:Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, somebody says it's Lilith. But they've lied about that before Who are you thinking of? Doesn't Misato tell Shinji it's Lilith in 1.11 too? I can't think of her lying about it in the other films, but I might have missed it.
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May 20, 2013 18:02
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House Louse posted:I meant in the series, but as you're talking about Rebuild: Oh, sorry. Yeah all I meant was that the giant in the basement is misidentified as Adam in the series, and later revealed to be Lilith. I don't actually remember who initially claims it's Adam, but if it's Misato telling Shinji then presumably someone's lied to her.
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May 20, 2013 18:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Oh, sorry. Yeah all I meant was that the giant in the basement is misidentified as Adam in the series, and later revealed to be Lilith. I don't actually remember who initially claims it's Adam, but if it's Misato telling Shinji then presumably someone's lied to her. Godammit I come back thirty seconds later to edit in an apology for being vague and you've beaten me to it. Kaji is the one who tells Misato it's Adam at the end of episode 15; presumably Gendo lied to him about it. It would be a pretty funny parallel if she was wrong in Rebuild, too!
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May 20, 2013 18:11
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House Louse posted:Kaji is the one who tells Misato it's Adam at the end of episode 15; presumably Gendo lied to him about it. It would be a pretty funny parallel if she was wrong in Rebuild, too! Didn't Kaji deliver the real Adam to Gendo before episode 15?
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May 20, 2013 18:19
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Didn't Kaji deliver the real Adam to Gendo before episode 15? I'm guessing he thought Gendo had somehow managed to find a way to fully revitalize Adam from its' embryonic state in all of a few months' time, or he just thought his source and Gendo were bullshitting him and decided to play along while he uncovered the "real truth".
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May 20, 2013 19:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Didn't Kaji deliver the real Adam to Gendo before episode 15? Yeah, he brought it over in episode 8, on the UN fleet with Asuka and Unit 02. (Adam was what got replaced with the "Key of Nebudchanezzer" in Rebuild.) I like to imagine an off-camera conversation a few episodes later which went something along the lines of "So Kaji, want to see what I did with your little present... here you go!"
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May 20, 2013 19:07
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yellowjournalism posted:That or I feel like at least this should be in the OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho07Ag6lV9g (or any better equivalent) Seconding the suggestion. This video is what made me "get" NGE's backdrop. It's a good starting point. yellowjournalism posted:How the gently caress do you trick Angels? If they're naturally drawn to Adam, then how-- I think this is the show's biggest plot hole and biggest reminder that they did this "Live". It was a cool twist when Kaworu dropped the bomb in the original series, but it sure opened a whole can of  . But no, it can be all explained by the masks having been switched around prior to the events of NGE. See the Angels weren't attracted to the body itself, but rather the masks ! They did it for real in the Rebuilds, that is, it explains why Lilith has Adam's mask. It all makes sense ok ?  Edit: quote:"So Kaji, want to see what I did with your little present... here you go!" And then Kaji got a fistful of AT Field to the face. This is how he died. This is canon. bof_man fucked around with this message at 20:39 on May 20, 2013 |
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May 20, 2013 20:30
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It's not that complicated, just assume they're drawn to the giant alien-god energy signature of Lilith as well as Adam. Not to mention that for the majority of the show's runtime both of them are being stored in the same compound; Kaworu is the only one who gets close enough to verify what he's sensing and react accordingly.
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May 21, 2013 00:21
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Yeah I knew I was missing something obvious.  Still, why lie about it ? I can't help but have to do mental gymnastics to make this fit the narrative. Is it a layer of redirection from Gendo to keep SEELE in the dark about the Adam embryo ? Is it just that they want to tell people it's Adam so that if the Angels probe their minds, the Angels will still think it's Adam ? Is it just a meta-surprise for us the viewer ? Is it just Gendo being a dick ? I think Rebuild 1 got it right. The bottom line is whatever that thing is, if the Angels get to it, it's game over.
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May 21, 2013 01:53
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All that theory about aliens and black/white moons is pretty cool, but in light of that bit about Eva being a "live performance" it's just total bullshit (or at best some poor writer trying to scrap together a coherent plot out of the director's capricious notions.) Once you explain the mystery you suck all the fun out of something like this.
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May 21, 2013 04:03
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Has there been any good ideas about what would have happened if Kaworu did "connect with" Lilith? EDIT: Oh wait, that is literally what the third impact is (which is what the Angels do not want).
Wank fucked around with this message at 05:17 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 04:26
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I think the alien stuff is dumb as heck and the best interpretation of Eva is when, yes, they're actually angels and such. It's much cooler to replicate a literal god or angel through science than it is to just clone some sort of alien being. 
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May 21, 2013 05:47
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The artificial Angels in Rebuild 3 are creepy as hell. Who built them, anyway? NERV? EDIT: Also, a request: does anyone have a GIF of the scene from the original series where Shinji makes eye contact with Unit 01? That was the defining moment of Evangelion for me, that was when I realized I had to keep watching. So good. SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND fucked around with this message at 20:02 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 15:13
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The alien stuff is cool in a sci-fi sense, but the show is more fun if you accept everything that's happening as genuine pseudomystical religious magic.
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May 21, 2013 15:16
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Is there like a recap of Rebuild 3 that explains what's going on and how the various elements connect to the previous movies? Because I'm still entirely lost after watching it twice.
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May 21, 2013 20:50
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Mango Polo posted:Is there like a recap of Rebuild 3 that explains what's going on and how the various elements connect to the previous movies? Because I'm still entirely lost after watching it twice. What are you confused about, specifically?
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May 21, 2013 21:15
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SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:The artificial Angels in Rebuild 3 are creepy as hell. Who built them, anyway? NERV? My opinion is that they were built by the IPEA due to the similar looking logo on the back of the Mk. 04A
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May 21, 2013 21:25
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Milky Moor posted:I think the alien stuff is dumb as heck and the best interpretation of Eva is when, yes, they're actually angels and such. It's much cooler to replicate a literal god or angel through science than it is to just clone some sort of alien being. The alien/s are god. They program DNA like we program C++ and Arduinos. That's what I like to believe anyways. SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:EDIT: Also, a request: does anyone have a GIF of the scene from the original series where Shinji makes eye contact with Unit 01? That was the defining moment of Evangelion for me, that was when I realized I had to keep watching. So good. No GIF for you, but that scene made me so glad I decided to watch the original series. My first dose of Eva was Rebuild 1.11. In the scene I thought 01's head got cut clean off, but then the camera cuts Shinji's window/screen and you see 01's loving eyeball reform and it's all of a sudden clear they're something so much more badass than a mech could ever be. I already knew the nature of the Evas before seeing that scene, but it was so amazing I could not believe it wasn't included in the Rebuilds. The other part I absolutely loved was when it showed NERV's competitor showcasing it's nuclear-core Mech and bragging about how superior it was to an Eva because of it's unlimited run time. Then they lose control of it of course. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 21:36
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Milky Moor posted:I think the alien stuff is dumb as heck and the best interpretation of Eva is when, yes, they're actually angels and such. It's much cooler to replicate a literal god or angel through science than it is to just clone some sort of alien being. LeftistMuslimObama posted:The alien stuff is cool in a sci-fi sense, but the show is more fun if you accept everything that's happening as genuine pseudomystical religious magic.
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May 21, 2013 21:43
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I mean if you're an Angel you have a choice between merging with Adam (eliminating human life and inheriting Earth for the angels), or Lilith (gaining the Fruit of Knowledge and becoming a god), so maybe you'd probably choose the latter. A couple of the angels have gone for Adam though. That whale-like angel that Unit-02 fights in the ocean en route to Japan (Kaji is escorting embryo Adam in the briefcase on one of the ships), and arguably Zereul, who breaks into the Geofront command center where Gendo is (I believe Adam has been fused to his hand for awhile at that point).
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May 21, 2013 22:00
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drat you guys got me wondering over whether or not I actually DO enjoy the alien/scientific stuff vs being in the dark. Ya know, I'll say I did enjoy the wtf and mystery of a lot of stuff, like not knowing where the angels came from, giant of light, adam, all that poo poo, yeah, god, the series was so amazing the first time I saw it as a teenager, just knowing gently caress this is nothing like all the other robot animes. This poo poo is loving surreal and amazing. So from that perspective maybe it was great that I didn't know what was going on at all. BUT Tangification in EoE was way more enjoyable/interesting when I looked up what LCL and human instrumentality meant. I just thought everyone loving died (like, completely died, period). Well, poo poo. Now I remember kinda loving how depressingly apocalyptic it was when I was a kid. Even if that was a complete misinterpretation. gently caress. I dunno. It's weird. The final scene of EoE was thought provoking then, thought provoking now, beautifully artistic and nebulous then and equally so now, having eaten the fruit of knowledge  I dunno. I think what frustrated me the most is when it got in the way of my understanding of the characters. Not having ANY clue what the gently caress was happening with Gendo and Rei and Yui and Eva 01 and everything in EoE was pretty frustrating. And, of course, this entire metanarrative of my perspectives as a kid with no loving clue what was happening around him (Shinji) and as a man understanding most of it, down with most of it, still pretty powerless (Fuyutsuki?) is also more fuel to the fire of my undying love for this insane series. I don't give a flying gently caress if that is bald confirmation bias and rationalizing and blind love and whatever, this loving poo poo rocks, and it's the best goddamn art anime has to offer, I swear (okay one of the best). edit: although it's interesting that for so long, i took some of the extreme american rumors so literally, like that the ending of Eva was a literal manifestation of Anno going actually clinically insane, and got tons of death threats. Now I know that his breakdown was much earlier, and yes they were running out of budget and winging it but it was still coherent, not just a total acid trip. And that the "death threats," when translated, are actually mostly pretty positive fan mail and the rest could just be like idle threats or even kinda facetious but his life wasn't actually in any danger. SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:The artificial Angels in Rebuild 3 are creepy as hell. Who built them, anyway? NERV? Yeah I think we can pretty much assume NERV/IPEA. They're also Eva-types, which is awesome. The drones at the beginning are Eva Mark04a (you can even see it in the HUD) and then Mark04b which is the ribbon guy that Shinji/Unit01 takes out with the eyebeam. Mark04c (nemesis series) are the ones in the sea that Wunder plays tetherball with. mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 22:32 on May 21, 2013 |
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May 21, 2013 22:23
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Mango Polo posted:Is there like a recap of Rebuild 3 that explains what's going on and how the various elements connect to the previous movies? Because I'm still entirely lost after watching it twice. Below is a spoilerific basic literal summary of Rebuild 3. I'm not sure if it's possible to answer your second question without conjectures and inferences, and a dissertation. Not promising anything, but I might try to answer it later. ACT 1 - The Wunder - The Premise Shinji is extracted from Eva-01 after a battle against man-made Angels. Shinji hosed up and people are so angry at him that they want to make sure he doesn't gently caress up again. They install a collar on him that explodes if he does something that makes them angry, like piloting an Eva. Eva-01 is used to power the Wunder. The Wunder is an Eva-like airship. The Wunder is used to destroy 4 man-made Angels. Shinji is explained that 14 years passed. Shinji doesn't get it so when Nerv sends Rei Q piloting Eva-09 to take him back, he goes back with Rei. He was told numerous times not to pilot Eva. ACT 2 - Nerv - The Setup Nerv headquarters is in ruins. Shinji discovers Rei is not Rei from the previous Rebuilds but a new Rei (let's call her Rei Q). Shinji meets Kaworu. Gendo tells Shinji to pilot Eva-13 with Kaworu. Shinji discovers Rei Q is even more a spaz than in the previous movies. Kaworu and Shinji play the piano. Kaworu shows Shinji how much he hosed up by triggering Near-Third Impact. Shinji gets exposition from Fuyutsuki about the nature of Evas and his mother, Yui. Also a bit about his father. Shinji has a mental breakdown. Kaworu convinces Shinji to pilot Eva-13 in an attempt to redo everything he hosed up. Kaworu also takes Shinji's collar. ACT 3 - Near-Third Impact - The Punchline Kaworu and Shinji board Eva-13 and they descend into Terminal Dogma. Rei Q is with them inside Eva-09. There they find Eva-06 pierced by two Lances and merged with the corpse of Lilith. Kaworu tells Shinji it's a bad idea to continue. Shinji continues anyway. They get assaulted by Asuka in Eva-02 Dash and Mari in Eva-08. They fight for a while. In the end Asuka and Mari cannot stop Eva-13 and Shinji removes the two spears. Lilith's body disintegrates, freeing Eva-06. The twelfth Angel was contained inside Eva-06. Rei Q frees the Angel and Eva-13 eats it. Fourth Impact starts. The Wunder rams Eva-13 in an attempt to stop it. Eva-09 goes into auto mode, attacks the Wunder and attempts to take control of it. Asuka engages Eva-09 by going into Beast mode. Rei Q ejects herself from Eva-09. Asuka ejects from Eva-02 Dash, detonates it and destroys Eva-09. Control is restored to Wunder. Meanwhile, Kaworu says he's been tricked by Gendo and detonates Shinji's collar in order to stop Fourth Impact. He dies. Fourth Impact doesn't stop. Mari jumps on Eva-13 to forcibly remove Shinji's plug from Eva-13. She succeeds and this stops Fourth Impact. Afterwards, the 3 original pilots (Rei, Shinji and Asuka) are reunited in the hellish landscape of Near-Third-Fourth Impact. Shinji is in mental breakdown mode.
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May 21, 2013 23:03
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ACanofPepsi posted:The other part I absolutely loved was when it showed NERV's competitor showcasing it's nuclear-core Mech and bragging about how superior it was to an Eva because of it's unlimited run time. Then they lose control of it of course. I think an interesting part about that episode is the fact that Gendo had it sabotaged. Could Jet-Alone have been able to fight the Angels? Could they have been able to create AT-fields like the Evas? I think that at the very least, Gendo felt like it would have interfered with his plans. Probably at most it would just have ended up siphoning away funds from NERV. But after the first failure of Jet-Alone vs. Angel combat (if it would have failed), then wouldn't he have not had to worry anymore? I don't think Gendo really has the scruples to give a crap about a nuclear reactor melting down in a city after it gets defeated by an Angel, but maybe it has more to do with his "timeline" (though Gendo never seems to care very much about the timeline, only Seele does). I think that maybe Jet-Alone was something that Gendo feared could fight the Angels. If that's the case, then it would have had to have been as powerful as the Angels, and also produce an AT-field of its own. Maybe this is connected to the "artificial Angels" in 3.33?
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May 22, 2013 00:04
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bof_man posted:Below is a spoilerific basic literal summary of Rebuild 3. I'm not sure if it's possible to answer your second question without conjectures and inferences, and a dissertation. Not promising anything, but I might try to answer it later. I thought Misato triggered the collar shortly before she slammed the Wunder into them. Just plowing into them without slowing down would be the fastest way to get into range, with a side benefit of giving them an easy target to unload their guns into. Guess the movie never really makes it clear though.
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May 22, 2013 00:36
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think an interesting part about that episode is the fact that Gendo had it sabotaged. Could Jet-Alone have been able to fight the Angels? Could they have been able to create AT-fields like the Evas? I think that at the very least, Gendo felt like it would have interfered with his plans. Probably at most it would just have ended up siphoning away funds from NERV. But after the first failure of Jet-Alone vs. Angel combat (if it would have failed), then wouldn't he have not had to worry anymore? I don't think Gendo really has the scruples to give a crap about a nuclear reactor melting down in a city after it gets defeated by an Angel, but maybe it has more to do with his "timeline" (though Gendo never seems to care very much about the timeline, only Seele does). I'm pretty sure the JEt Alone sales rep has a line to the effect of "We can't generate AT fields yet, but we're going to research it" - presumably they weren't aware of how the ATF is generated and related to souls and were a little optimistic.
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May 22, 2013 00:39
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Misato doesn't activate the collar, but strictly speaking neither does Kaworu. It's set to automatically go off in case of an "awakening," i.e. when the pilot of an Evangelion can't control their emotions and things start going all signs-and-omens-shaped. They mention this in the scene where the collar is first introduced.Shazaminator posted:I'm pretty sure the JEt Alone sales rep has a line to the effect of "We can't generate AT fields yet, but we're going to research it" - presumably they weren't aware of how the ATF is generated and related to souls and were a little optimistic. Probably, but at the same time it explains why Gendo would sabotage them -- the last thing NERV and SEELE need is another competitor researching the nature of souls and putting it to practical use. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:43 on May 22, 2013 |
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May 22, 2013 00:41
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Shazaminator posted:I'm pretty sure the JEt Alone sales rep has a line to the effect of "We can't generate AT fields yet, but we're going to research it" - presumably they weren't aware of how the ATF is generated and related to souls and were a little optimistic. That's the way I interpreted it as well. But I think that the "artificial Angels" of 3.33 provide a bit of evidence to support the idea that it is possible to figure it out. One of the things I liked a lot about 3.33 were the little references to various episodes from the series that didn't show up in their entirety. For instance, obviously the Jet-Alone episode doesn't happen in Rebuild, but we see Shinji wearing a suit that looks very similar to the one Misato wore. Kaworu and Shinji making music together and doing Evangelion stuff together is sort of reminiscent of "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!". I felt like I noticed a lot more of them but I haven't rewatched 3.33 yet, and that was a bit of a while ago.
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May 22, 2013 00:52
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Misato doesn't activate the collar, but strictly speaking neither does Kaworu. It's set to automatically go off in case of an "awakening," i.e. when the pilot of an Evangelion can't control their emotions and things start going all signs-and-omens-shaped. They mention this in the scene where the collar is first introduced. It seemed like he had some control over it blowing up; he gives a cheerful smile right before it blows right after telling Shinji they would meet again. Always took that to mean they just didn't want someone else getting the money and resources they needed to keep Nerv going, and wanting to keep any competitors out of the way that don't know what is going on.
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May 22, 2013 00:53
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Terminal Entropy posted:It seemed like he had some control over it blowing up; he gives a cheerful smile right before it blows right after telling Shinji they would meet again. It's possible that Kaworu knew what the "automatic" parameters were, and since we know from the series that he can do crazy stuff in regards to sync ratio, at the very least, I think that it wouldn't be too far fetched to imagine that he could have the ability to "set off" whatever it is that sets off the automatic collar explosion thingy. That's how I interpreted that scene. He's also demonstrated earlier that he has some amount of experience with the collar.
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May 22, 2013 01:01
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