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Not a huge Star Trek guy, but this movie loving ruled. This is literally why I go to cinema, I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Complete and total entertainment, I left the theater with an adrenaline rush. Hell, they went there and pulled it off in spectacular fashion. Probably the best movie I've seen since Skyfall. JJ Abrams is gonna rock Star Wars so hard. Go see this movie.
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May 28, 2013 19:06
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Astroman posted:A lot could happen in between "A" and "B" which makes giving Khan the keys to a giant fuckoff warship which he uses to wreck a city a pretty horrible move, in retrospect. There wasn't a lot between A and B though, because the admiral had direct control over the whole fleet. There was no question of if he could start a war, just when and how he went about it. It's like saying Curtis LeMay couldn't have started WWIII if he was just a little bit crazier (and we're talking about a guy who literally advocated preemptive nuclear war.) But I guess reality had a plot hole there. yronic heroism posted:It also seems incredibly predictable that Khan will get those keys hands-down. And I mean predictable in the narrative. Since both Kirk and Spock see it coming, and really only Simon Pegg and Kirk stand in the way of Superkillguy. (But I guess if we are second-guessing Kirk deciding to launch a raid to catch the guy in Act I, we can now second guess him not telling Scotty "set to kill, seriously, bro.") Wouldn't having Scotty kill Khan after they took the bridge (which would be before he actually did anything justifying a summary execution) be kind of, I don't know, hosed up for Star Trek? Scotty only got him with the stun because he totally blindsided him, and we have no reason to think Scotty of all people is the type to ambush murder a dude he barely knows when he resigned over a lot less. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 19:18 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:15
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Like the end of the film, the gunfight on Klingon is a repeat of the scenario from the opening sequence: Kirk and company, in disguise, engage in a disorienting conflict on the ground while fire rains down from above. The Klingons are not the true enemy; it's the 'volcano' that threatens everyone. Interpreting the gunfight sequence, and its place in the narrative, depends on comparing and contrasting these two segments. The unspoken implication is that Khan planned to conquer the Klingons, or otherwise gently caress with their society. At the very least, the more level-headed characters like Spock believed this to be the case. Uhura, for example, (though stuck following Kirk's bellicose orders) goes down with the intent of explaining to the Klingons that Khan is a dishonorable criminal threat. This idea that at least some segments of the crew believe they are helping the Klingons explains their going on this sloppy covert mission. This is all, of course, a continuation of Prometheus' subtheme of how to act on incomplete information without being paralyzed by uncertainty. We don't know exactly why the Klingon draws the knife. We only know that he does, and that it's a bad sign. Same with Khan, whose motivations are often unreadable.
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May 28, 2013 19:20
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computer parts posted:Yes and the outcome is upended. This is known as "irony". Apparently other fans of the film disagree and think it's hands down the right call. See below. sean10mm posted:Again, what was the alternative to Kirk's decision in the situation he was presented with? If he didn't have a better alternative it wasn't "the most terrible decision" was it? You really want to go into the realm of alternate movie plot history? Okay. Bum rush the enemy ship with most of his crew, since the Vengeance apparently only has twelve guys on it. Or since they're at earth already, call Starfleet and let them know the admiral's dastardly plan. Even ram the other ship though I guess they already did that in Nemesis. I think this is a pointless exercise that distracts from dumb plotting, but there you go. quote:Plus this is the same Kirk who admits to Spock he doesn't know what he's doing. The whole film is tearing down his excessive cockiness. He doesn't know what he's doing at the end either. He just sacrifices himself because there's no other choice and he's an action hero. But the courage of the dude was never in doubt... it's about judgment. So there's no learning or growth. Just following the same hot-shot instincts as always. This is what I am talking about when I say the whole thing is clumsy and muddled. It aspires to certain themes and character arcs without actually delivering. quote:You're just engaging in a huge dodge and arguing in bad faith here I apologize for being wrong on the internet, I guess. I don't really want to argue though. Just set out my reasons for not liking the film. If you don't find them compelling, fine.
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May 28, 2013 19:22
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yronic heroism posted:Apparently other fans of the film disagree and think it's hands down the right call. See below. Something can be the right call and still a bad idea. It's just the least bad idea.
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May 28, 2013 19:24
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I just rewatched WoK last night and between that and reading the discussion in this thread I have an even greater appreciation than I did before for STID. It takes the major elements of WoK and with some clever changes turns them into something relevant to today's world in a way I find quite satisfying. I really want to go see it again now.
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May 28, 2013 19:26
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Gatts posted:If they go with Picard reboot then let's go ST:ANG (Star Trek: Action New Generation) for this new series. So much action and fast paced things being flung at you that they don't need warp, they all can run to their destination really loving hard wearing warp boots from 1 to 9 and transwarp where freaky stuff goes down. I'd watch the gently caress out of this movie so hard. But seriously, Bradley Cooper could potentially be a really great Riker.
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May 28, 2013 19:26
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yronic heroism posted:You really want to go into the realm of alternate movie plot history? No, I'm telling you the movie presents a situation, and Kirk makes a decision that's logical based on the information the character has available to him, so calling it "terrible" doesn't make very much sense. He's not operating in a vacuum and giving Khan the keys to a ship "just because." As far as his character is able to reasonably discern the only alternative to that is everyone dying and the evil plot going on unhindered. That said, none of your alternate scenarios fit the facts of the situation as presented to Kirk though. yronic heroism posted:Bum rush the enemy ship with most of his crew, since the Vengeance apparently only has twelve guys on it. Or since they're at earth already, call Starfleet and let them know the admiral's dastardly plan. Even ram the other ship though I guess they already did that in Nemesis. I think this is a pointless exercise that distracts from dumb plotting, but there you go. They couldn't bum rush the ship without Khan because Khan was the only one who knew how to get into the ship. They couldn't ram it because they were dead in space. And if Kirk can call Starfleet, so can the guy who outranks him by miles, making that avenue pointless. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:28
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Cyra posted:JJ Abrams is gonna rock Star Wars so hard. Go see this movie. Possibly. But if I have to sit through a bunch of emoting about what it means to be Han and Luke or they reimagined Wookiees as anything, gonna nerdrage so hard.
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May 28, 2013 19:31
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yronic heroism posted:Possibly. But if I have to sit through a bunch of emoting about what it means to be Han and Luke or they reimagined Wookiees as anything, gonna nerdrage so hard. It would be so hilarious to see Abrams retcon a bunch of crap from the prequels like midichlorians
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May 28, 2013 19:34
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Midichlorians own.
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May 28, 2013 19:35
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Colonel Whitey posted:I just rewatched WoK last night and between that and reading the discussion in this thread I have an even greater appreciation than I did before for STID. It takes the major elements of WoK and with some clever changes turns them into something relevant to today's world in a way I find quite satisfying. I really want to go see it again now. I just went back over Space Seed and several things immediately pop up again in relation to STID (in addition to confirming, for me, how morally awful Space Seed really was): 1) Khan's plot to take over the Enterprise is mirrored in his plot to take Vengeance, which must have been his intention from the very beginning, though only temporarily thwarted by Marcus. 2) Khan knocks out the crew of the Enterprise in Space Seed by suffocating them, referenced in his threat to Spock in STID to kill the Enterprise crew and retrieve his own crewmates over their cold dead bodies. 3) Khan's first action upon waking in Space Seed was to threaten McCoy with a scalpel at his throat. 4) Khan wakes up in Space Seed first, and automatically, because he's the leader. This is explicitly the reason why it was Khan that Marcus let loose in STID and not "John Harrison" the random other Khan crewmember. 5) The most hilarious subversion of a Starfleet officer in franchise history. Lt. Maria McGivers falls for the manliest of men and therefore conspires to commit mutiny. This is doubly misogynistic AND racist as hell because of the noble (historic) savage AND mirrored Pocahontas scenario. 6) In relation to above, when the command crew discover who Khan was (after Spock did some computer digging) they started talking about how they admired the man in the historical accounts (which were certainly spotty and figuratively whitewashed). Think about what it would be like if we, today, started saying those lines about some foreign ruler from the 1700s. Ring any warning bells? 7) Khan threatens Kirk and then Spock with death if the command crew don't give in and work for him (to man the ship and help him conquer the galaxy/universe). He wasn't bluffing. McGivers saves Kirk who then saves Spock. This talk of him taking over the ship with just his noble savageness and charisma is a bunch of baloney. Guile, deceit, manipulation, brutality, and violence are his stock and trade. The best bit of manipulation he does in STID is apparently upon the more gullible in the audience. e: 8) And the Enterprise crew had no idea how to run the de-cryo systems, Khan nearly died from the wake-up process, but he pulled through because of his superior genes/body. The other 72 people wake up without incident. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 20:41 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:42
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sean10mm posted:No, I'm telling you the movie presents a situation, and Kirk makes a decision that's logical based on the information the character has available to him, so calling it "terrible" doesn't make very much sense. He's not operating in a vacuum and giving Khan the keys to a ship "just because." As far as his character is able to reasonably discern the only alternative to that is everyone dying and the evil plot going on unhindered. First, the plotting doesn't present the situation as clearly as you'd like. Second, my argument isn't about what Kirk discerns so much as it turns out to be a cluster and that goes unaddressed by a film that wants to tie everything up by telling us the (generic) moral at the end. e: And, to take the cake, the moral is basically about unintended consequences. quote:They couldn't bum rush the ship because Khan was the only one who knew how to get into the ship. They couldn't ram it because they were dead in space. And if Kirk can call Starfleet, so can the guy who outranks him by miles, making that avenue pointless. They weren't dead in space because they had engines that were keeping them from falling to earth. Scotty was the key to getting in, not Khan. And the point of calling Starfleet would be to expose the plot, not to immediately win a pissing match. I don't want to hash this stuff out forever. The point is STID doesn't do a good job dismissing these possibilities to make me buy "free Khan and have only two mere mortals keeping an eye on him" as the only choice. The narrative counts on the audience being on the edge of their seats and not thinking it all out. It's action movie logic for sure, which is where a lot of the "Not Star Trek" feeling comes from, though the problem for me is more it's disjointed action movie logic. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 19:51 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:42
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yronic heroism posted:Scotty was the key to getting in, not Khan. Except that nobody had any idea how to get into the ship without Khan telling them every step of the way. How did you miss that? 
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May 28, 2013 19:49
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sean10mm posted:Except that nobody had any idea how to get into the ship without Khan telling them every step of the way. How did you miss that? You're saying that people with the complete inability to engage with even the text of the film frequently may fail every level of critical analysis of it? VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:50
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sean10mm posted:Except that nobody had any idea how to get into the ship without Khan telling them every step of the way. How did you miss that? So, get him to walk them through it, or take him along with fifty Enterprise crew.
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May 28, 2013 19:53
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yronic heroism posted:So, get him to walk them through it, or take him along with fifty Enterprise crew. All 50 of them making the incredibly risky/dangerous cross-over in the debris field? That's not Kirk. (Also, not Star Trek) Rule 1) Enterprise is always the only ship in the sector. Rule 2) The captain (Kirk) is always the only person available for risky away missions.
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May 28, 2013 19:56
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api call girl posted:You're saying that people with the complete inability to engage with even the text of the film frequently may fail every level of critical analysis of it? The text of the film, good goons. (With insightful writer commentary on "misogeny".) yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 19:57
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yronic heroism posted:The text of the film, good goons. Please explain how a gratuitous lingerie shot has any bearing on your inability to comprehend the parameters of the endgame setup of the movie. Not enough blood going to the brain?
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May 28, 2013 19:59
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yronic heroism posted:They weren't dead in space because they had engines that were keeping them from falling to earth. Because a wreck that can barely hover = RAMMING SPEED? yronic heroism posted:And the point of calling Starfleet would be to expose the plot, not to immediately win a pissing match. A distinction without a difference. If the admiral can just tell everyone to ignore the captain (pro tip, they can, that's what being an admiral means) it's a waste of time. yronic heroism posted:The text of the film, good goons. Which has nothing to do with anything we're talking about? Oh, that's right, you're not arguing in good faith, you're engaging in a series of dodges and changes of subject whenever you get cornered on something. api call girl posted:All 50 of them making the incredibly risky/dangerous cross-over in the debris field? That's not Kirk. And how do you MAKE Khan cooperate, exactly? The Star Trek staple of torture? And aren't the crew busy dealing with all the huge holes blasted in the ship's critical systems 5 minutes earlier? It's not like squadrons of Klingons did any good against Khan, either. And what could go wrong with 50 guys with their phasers set to "kill" shooting off inside the bridge at Khan all at once? sean10mm fucked around with this message at 20:02 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 20:00
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api call girl posted:Please explain how a gratuitous lingerie shot has any bearing on your inability to comprehend the parameters of the endgame setup of the movie. Not enough blood going to the brain? Well, as RLM would say, it shows prioritization of lowest common denominator pablum. Also the screenwriter sounds like a moron or a fidgety child. As for the "parameters of the endgame setup," it's not my fault they did a poor job establishing them. Or is it? Maybe this movie is just too smart for me, unlike the 13 year olds in the front row who loved it.
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May 28, 2013 20:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Midichlorians own.
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May 28, 2013 20:10
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yronic heroism posted:Well, as RLM would say, it shows prioritization of lowest common denominator pablum. RLM continues to sounds like the worst.
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May 28, 2013 20:11
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Colonel Whitey posted:It would be so hilarious to see Abrams retcon a bunch of crap from the prequels like midichlorians "Science has advanced greatly over the last thirty (?) years. Now we know that the Force really is just a bunch of mystical mumbo jumbo."
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May 28, 2013 20:14
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yronic heroism posted:Well, as RLM would say, it shows prioritization of lowest common denominator pablum. Also the screenwriter sounds like a moron or a fidgety child. The lingerie scene shows Kirk being chastised by a woman he cannot seduce. Carol is not embarrassed and trying to cover herself, but blithely indifferent, if slightly annoyed. She thinks Kirk is pathetic, and Kirk both looks pathetic and feels pathetic. Kirk's womanizing is associated with his colonial tendencies. Again, Raiders of the Lost Ark is the film's big reference point, where Star Trek 2009 is modeled after Star Wars.
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May 28, 2013 20:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Kirk's womanizing is associated with his colonial tendencies. Again, Raiders of the Lost Ark is the film's big reference point, where Star Trek 2009 is modeled after Star Wars.
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May 28, 2013 20:18
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quote:A distinction without a difference. If the admiral can just tell everyone to ignore the captain (pro tip, they can, that's what being an admiral means) it's a waste of time. I'm pretty sure if the captain of an aircraft carrier called the joint chiefs (or the White House, or the media) and said hey, my superior is legit corrupt and ordered me to take illegal actions and start a war with China, there would definitely be an investigation. And sinking the captain's ship after that would be a big loving admission of guilt. quote:Oh, that's right, you're not arguing in good faith, you're engaging in a series of dodges and changes of subject whenever you get cornered on something. Tell me more about arguing in good faith about the relative ramming impulse speeds of imaginary spaceships. quote:And aren't the crew busy dealing with all the huge holes blasted in the ship's critical systems 5 minutes earlier? The beauty of my made up fictional counter-historical plan is they can abandon ship, board the other one, and not worry about that. Do you really find these points so interesting that dropping them is bad faith? I think the "text" didn't do a good job conveying the ending action movie logic in terms of possible Star Trek tactics. You disagree. I don't want a fanfic contest over it. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 20:19
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I have to say I actually thought that was pretty clever to shoot Alice Eve's body in the same way they would lay out a scene of a majestic nebula or something. The real final frontier: a woman immune to his charms. It doesn't work without the requisite "hot green babes" scene, and Zoe Saldana's nonverbal acting showing that Kirk doesn't even cross her mind (the three leads have really good chemistry).
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May 28, 2013 20:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The lingerie scene shows Kirk being chastised by a woman he cannot seduce. Carol is not embarrassed and trying to cover herself, but blithely indifferent, if slightly annoyed. She thinks Kirk is pathetic, and Kirk both looks pathetic and feels pathetic. I thought it was modeled on GURM since there's a fixation on twincest.
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May 28, 2013 20:21
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I have to say I actually thought that was pretty clever to shoot Alice Eve's body in the same way they would lay out a scene of a majestic nebula or something. The real final frontier: a woman immune to his charms. It doesn't work without the requisite "hot green babes" scene, and Zoe Saldana's nonverbal acting showing that Kirk doesn't even cross her mind (the three leads have really good chemistry).
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May 28, 2013 20:22
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Danger posted:RLM continues to sounds like the worst. It's just another example how a certain kind of fan ruins everything. They did some funny Star Wars prequel reviews with a serial killer reviewer gag (and to be fair, some good content too), and now people think they're the last word in movies and link to them as a substitute for thinking about anything. When they got away from the gag Plinkett reviews they got boring, unfunny and often just pedantic.
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May 28, 2013 20:23
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Strange Matter posted:Hopefully this builds to the point in the third film to expose that the only woman Kirk truly loves is the Enterprise. Now that they've blown off the green babes gag, where do you go from there anyway?
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May 28, 2013 20:25
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Now that they've blown off the green babes gag, where do you go from there anyway? Shapshifter babe from Star Trek VI, obviously.
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May 28, 2013 20:27
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sean10mm posted:It's just another example how a certain kind of fan ruins everything. Funny, they said the same thing about certain kinds of Star Trek fans. But I guess the fact that they pointed it out means the observation is poo poo.
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May 28, 2013 20:28
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sean10mm posted:It's just another example how a certain kind of fan ruins everything. They did some funny Star Wars prequel reviews with a serial killer reviewer gag (and to be fair, some good content too), and now people think they're the last word in movies and link to them as a substitute for thinking about anything. When they got away from the gag Plinkett reviews they got boring, unfunny and often just pedantic. Their other Star Trek movie reviews are loving awful, just full of pedantic nitpicking. At one point Plinkett literally says "I don't like this because it's different from the Star Trek I'm used to" and I don't think that statement is intended to be read as anything but straight. I mean those movies did stink so it's a wash, but it's not like RLM has any special insight on filmmaking or anything.
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May 28, 2013 20:29
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sean10mm posted:It's just another example how a certain kind of fan ruins everything. They did some funny Star Wars prequel reviews with a serial killer reviewer gag, and now people think they're the last word in movies and link to them as a substitute for thinking about anything. When they got away from the gag Plinkett reviews they got boring, unfunny and often just pedantic.
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May 28, 2013 20:29
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Now that they've blown off the green babes gag, where do you go from there anyway? Q tricks Kirk into sleeping with a man, Kirk realizes he's gay, we have a queer Kirk, nerd shitstorm ensues
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May 28, 2013 20:30
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The STID review isn't Plinkett, it looks like it's basically the actual guys sitting around a table saying what they thought did and didn't work. Minimal artifice with an opening sketch. Better than most youtube reviewers, at least.
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May 28, 2013 20:33
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Strange Matter posted:Did you elaborate on this in the thread, because I think I missed that and would like to read it. Besides the obvious callback in the opening sequence, based on Indy's problematic interactions with other cultures, Khan is presented as basically the same as the ark - the embodiment wrath. Freezing the volcano in the opening scene obviously ties in with the re-freezing of Khan later. He's then hidden away in some random warehouse. Plus there's the basic theme of exploration versus militarism ("it belongs in a museum"), playing off the ambiguous gray area between the two (Nazi collaborator Belloq says to Indy: "You and I are very much alike. Archeology is our religion, yet we have both fallen from the pure faith. Our methods have not differed as much as you pretend. I am a shadowy reflection of you. And it would take only a nudge to make you like me, to push you out of the light." He's not wrong.). The shadowy reflection in this film is, of course, between the Enterprise and Marcus' Vengeance. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 20:34
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Strange Matter posted:I think there's also much more to examine as far as the prequels are concerned than just the failure of the film's text and cinematography. A big portion of the RLM reviews, which I sincerely enjoy and which made me appreciate the OT even more, show the behind the scenes process of how the films got that way. The "shot/reverse shot" analysis gets its impact from showing Lucas sitting in his director's chair gloating about his sophisticated film-making process. I don't think that same level of behind the scenes documentation exists for other films that RLM targets, which drains a lot of their punch. Lucas 'gets' Star Wars though in a way that RLM certainly completely missed, as evidenced by the prequels.
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May 28, 2013 20:36
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