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jng2058 posted:Leonidas in 300 (and history). Haha, you think there are mooks in history. Man: as an epic fighter with feats in short sword, Leo must've been bummed out he was killed by a NPC.
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Sep 7, 2013 01:54
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Douwe posted:Haha, you think there are mooks in history. Man: as an epic fighter with feats in short sword, Leo must've been bummed out he was killed by a NPC. According to Plutarch, there was a Persian soldier named Mithridates, an ordinary rank-and-file soldier, who fought in the Battle of Cunaxa. (The background and aftermath of battle is one of the great stories of history, and is best recorded in the Anabasis of Xenophon.) He was the one who killed with a dart the leader of the rebel forces, the famous Cyrus the Younger, without even realizing whom he had killed. Cyrus was on the verge of overthrowing his tyrannical brother King Artaxerxes II, who rewarded Mithridates handsomely - but the king wished it to be thought that he, not some lowly soldier, was the one who killed Cyrus. However, during a victory celebration, Mithridates had a bit too much to drink, and he let slip that his fancy clothes and such were his prize for killing Cyrus. Artaxerxes caught wind of it, and for stealing his glory, sentenced him to be put to death by scaphism, a notoriously gruesome means of execution. The poor bastard didn't die for seventeen days. So, bringing things back on topic: would it be in-character for Tarquin to fabricate an official record of things just so it would make a better story than what actually happened?
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Sep 7, 2013 02:09
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Bongo Bill posted:
We're actually hearing Tarquin tell the story in retrospect.
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Sep 7, 2013 02:16
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Noah posted:We're actually hearing Tarquin tell the story in retrospect. To Nale. In Hell. Forever.
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Sep 7, 2013 05:05
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Potooweet posted:To Nale. ...okay, yeah, that'd be his version of hell, all right. Repeatedly trying to get people to listen to this awesome story of how awesome he was and nobody giving a poo poo about it. He's even got a version of it that he's masterfully perfected to be all in iambic pentameter and nobody in hell friggin' cares about iambic pentameter. But he's convinced if he tells the story just right and gets people to listen to him and appreciate his completely perfected mastery of narrative, he'll be able to leave. He never will!
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Sep 7, 2013 06:00
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Speedball posted:He never will! He's doomed.
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Sep 7, 2013 07:40
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The Leper Colon V posted:The key to leaving is accepting that he's just not actually that clever. This is all going to end very badly for Tarquin.
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Sep 7, 2013 07:57
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Douwe posted:Haha, you think there are mooks in history. Man: as an epic fighter with feats in short sword, Leo must've been bummed out he was killed by a NPC. Of course there are mooks in history. Look at Peter Buckley. Dude's a real-life Carl "The Tooth" Williams.
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Sep 7, 2013 08:07
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FMguru posted:The Rules Of Dramatic Storytelling Necessity are real things in the OoTS universe, and they are powerful, but they're not the complete be-all end-all Theory Of Everything that Tarquin treats them as. Now I want to see Tarquin in a Discworld novel, where Narrative Causality is also a real force of nature.
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Sep 7, 2013 08:51
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The Leper Colon V posted:The key to leaving is accepting that he's just not actually that clever. Heh, exactly. The defining trademark of the truly damned is the inability to admit fault and take responsibility. And Tarquin is sharp, indeed, very sharp...but not that sharp. If he were really clever he'd find a way to get everyone to fall in line because they love him, 'cause people will risk death to destroy someone they hate. He doesn't have a concept of empathy so this probably never occurred to him. He's also missing another big storyteller aspect: if you're a proper storyteller, you're not just setting up and assembling component tropes, you're bringing people to life, and the story can even take on a life of its own because you've made it ring true. But he sees other people only as stepping stones, at best...the story of his own life that he's constructing is paint-by-numbers, no passion. I don't know how Tarquin's going to go down but I can't wait to see it. Even if it was an anticlimax it'd be fitting because, y'know, it'd take his pride down a couple of big notches. My only problem with the same thing happening to Kubota was that Kubota died so fast he didn't even have time to realize what a colossal fuckup he was.
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Sep 7, 2013 09:14
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Speedball posted:He's also missing another big storyteller aspect: if you're a proper storyteller, you're not just setting up and assembling component tropes, you're bringing people to life, and the story can even take on a life of its own because you've made it ring true. But he sees other people only as stepping stones, at best...the story of his own life that he's constructing is paint-by-numbers, no passion. My Lovely Horse posted:Considering that, Rich is showing remarkable restraint in not using Tarquin just to take the piss out of his forum members.
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Sep 7, 2013 09:26
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nimby posted:Now I want to see Tarquin in a Discworld novel, where Narrative Causality is also a real force of nature. Wasn't that roughly the idea of Witches Abroad? Forcing reality to conform to stories?
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Sep 7, 2013 09:29
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nimby posted:Now I want to see Tarquin in a Discworld novel, where Narrative Causality is also a real force of nature. Picture him trying to pull one over on Vetinari. 
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Sep 7, 2013 09:37
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Carrasco posted:Picture him trying to pull one over on Vetinari.
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Sep 7, 2013 10:05
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Carrasco posted:Picture him trying to pull one over on Vetinari. Picture him trying to pull one over on Vimes.
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Sep 7, 2013 11:07
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Speedball posted:And Tarquin is sharp, indeed, very sharp...but not that sharp. If he were really clever he'd find a way to get everyone to fall in line because they love him, 'cause people will risk death to destroy someone they hate. He doesn't have a concept of empathy so this probably never occurred to him. It's not really possible to be loved by everyone. There will always be people who disagree on certain points and if you aren't able to dispose of those people on a whim then what is the value of being supreme dictator?
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Sep 7, 2013 11:09
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my dad posted:Picture him trying to pull one over on Vimes. Normal Vimes, or Super-Vimes with the power of darkness? Are you my cow? No! It goes "narrative convention means your friend must die!" That is not my cow.
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Sep 7, 2013 12:09
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Carrasco posted:Picture him trying to pull one over on Vetinari. Tarquin would think he'd won right up until the moment he realized he'd never had a chance. Tarquin knows stories, but Vetinari knows people.
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Sep 7, 2013 12:23
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Actually, hold on: Tarquin would set himself up to be in a role where he's continually useful for Vetinari. Present and prove himself to be easily manipulated into doing exactly what Vetinari has planned, and ignore the fact that he serves as a pawn because he does get to live a very decent life with all the amenities in exchange for it. Tarquin would be Duke Tarquin, watch commander.
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Sep 7, 2013 13:54
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My Lovely Horse posted:
Vetinari would see Tarquin's scheme coming a mile away, know he's going to be trying to undermine and/or replace him the whole way, and promptly set Vimes and Tarquin against one another. Because Vimes would knock Tarquin the gently caress out and solve the problem for Vetinari. There's no way Tarquin would be okay with being second banana to a frankly better villain, leader, and/or technical hero.
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Sep 7, 2013 15:36
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Tarquin is not actually that smart is the thing. He is basically Elan and Nale mixed together. He has immense knowledge of story structure and short-sighted arrogant plans which are destined to backfire in his face. Elan also has immense knowledge of story structure but he just isn't very smart, just self-aware to be able to put it to use sometimes. Tarquin does the same thing but with all of Nale's "I'm a genius, there is no way I can fail" flaws.
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Sep 7, 2013 18:41
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ImpAtom posted:Tarquin is not actually that smart is the thing. He is basically Elan and Nale mixed together. He has immense knowledge of story structure and short-sighted arrogant plans which are destined to backfire in his face. Elan also has immense knowledge of story structure but he just isn't very smart, just self-aware to be able to put it to use sometimes. Tarquin does the same thing but with all of Nale's "I'm a genius, there is no way I can fail" flaws. Yeah, the whole thing with just framing Haley's dad out of the blue for back-chatting him just serves to remind people that as much as he claims to be a super genius, he's at the end of it all: Nale's father.
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Sep 7, 2013 19:59
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Manic_Misanthrope posted:Yeah, the whole thing with just framing Haley's dad out of the blue for back-chatting him just serves to remind people that as much as he claims to be a super genius, he's at the end of it all: Nale's father. More importantly, he's not as smart as Roy.
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Sep 7, 2013 23:42
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A.o.D. posted:More importantly, he's not as smart as Roy. Also it's Roy's story and as such, literally nothing Tarqin can do can change that.
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Sep 8, 2013 00:30
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Tarquin is intelligent. No matter how smart you are, though, it's hard to come to the correct conclusion when you're starting from false premises. And his ego means that his most basic premise "I, Tarquin, am more important than anyone else" isn't likely to be challenged until the knife is already between his ribs. If he actually understood his place in the narrative he'd see the danger he's in, but that would mean accepting that he isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.
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Sep 8, 2013 01:40
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Is anyone else really sick of the whole "power of narrative" gimmick yet?
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Sep 8, 2013 01:51
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Colonel Cool posted:Is anyone else really sick of the whole "power of narrative" gimmick yet? Seriously, it's dollars to donuts that he'll be dead by the end of the book.
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Sep 8, 2013 02:35
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The Leper Colon V posted:Good thing he's on his way out, huh? I don't think he's dying but the next book is definitely going to focus on other elements of the world. We've spent too long on this continent though, I agree with the people complaining.
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Sep 8, 2013 03:22
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Now watch xykon pop back in with a "forgot my hat" and wipe tarquin and his forces out as an afterthought.
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Sep 8, 2013 03:28
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"Forgot my hat. Oh hey, xp." *wipes out everybody, goes on with his day*
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Sep 8, 2013 03:41
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Colonel Cool posted:Is anyone else really sick of the whole "power of narrative" gimmick yet? Nope. Because look at how it is deployed in the latest update - its just the ideology he adhears to and is forcing on others. For tarquin it is no different than what Aryan supremacy was for Hitler. For everything he says about its truth and power, and high minded prose, it is really just the fig leaf he uses to give himself permission to be a petty dictator
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Sep 8, 2013 03:42
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Y'know, that Godwinning might actually be appropriate, wasn't he also the one espousing an inevitable flow of history? That's not so different from a guy talking about how only he understands the Omni-story and thus is its master.
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Sep 8, 2013 04:35
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Speedball posted:Y'know, that Godwinning might actually be appropriate, wasn't he also the one espousing an inevitable flow of history?  Still an rear end in a top hat, though.
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Sep 8, 2013 04:51
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NihilCredo posted:That comes from an earlier H., I believe. And yeah, Tarquin's not stupid, he's very smart with massive glaring weak points. He doesn't think he's the final boss because he's an idiot, he's got a massive opinion of himself; he didn't bounty up Haley's dad for basically no gain because he's dumb, he's ferociously petty when it comes to people not showing total deference to him. He's still going to be just as hosed as he would be if he were stupid, of course. But he's starting from a position that nobody stupid would've been able to get to.
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Sep 8, 2013 15:51
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Mind that he is fine with being hosed, as long as it makes a totally great story and will guarantee his immortality in history.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:11
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peak debt posted:Mind that he is fine with being hosed, as long as it makes a totally great story and will guarantee his immortality in history. At which point you quietly poison someone to death. I am wondering if the flying Kobold might not off him after he loses the battle just to make it a completely unexpected betrayal that means he dies unmourned and unremembered.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:18
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That is the obvious action to take but it's easier to make those plans than to put them into effect. Killing a smart level 20ish character that can afford to spend an entire Kingdom's worth of resources on magic items isn't an easy thing even if you weren't restricted by how flashy his demise can be. Poisoning such a character is completely out of the question for instance.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:32
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Nobody exactly needs to devise an elaborate plan to do him in secret, or is going to bother. Nobody can remember the name of the last local tyrant to be offed in a coup. Or the one before, or the one before. He's set up a situation where the endemic chaos is high enough that pretty much nothing stands out, grand future plans aside he's currently an actual player only in his one crappy little backwater country which far as I'm aware is supposed to be pretty standard for 'retired' adventurers, and short his long-term plan for conquest nothing he's done will have lasting effect beyond that of any of the chumps he's suckered. He's simply counting on running stuff for a fair bit longer to take it to the next level.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:50
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Glass of Milk posted:Now watch xykon pop back in with a "forgot my hat" and wipe tarquin and his forces out as an afterthought. Nah, if he came back with anything it would be a piece of himself. After all, Tarquin has less plot relevance than Xykon does in his left pinky (bone). Not going to happen, since he intends to just reconstitute at Kraagor's Gate.
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Sep 8, 2013 19:00
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Drakyn posted:Good lord. The sags follow you around the room. He really isn't though. I've been reading over the logs and he is really isn't much smarter than Elan at least as we're shown. He is immensely immensely aware of genre tropes which sort of qualifies as intelligent except that he is then obviously at a bit of a loss when something doesn't adhere to those tropes. He's knowledgeable in the same way Elan is. Elan is more naive but also more flexible and capable of dealing with or even changing his role in the story. (As he yells at his dad as he leaves.) Everything we see of Tarquin implies he's really talented and capable of working with anything within a set story structure but lost without it. He's like a TV Troper. He isn't a gibbering idiot but he hasn't really been shown to be that smart, nor is he anywhere as smart as he thinks he is. He's Nale + Elan.
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Sep 8, 2013 19:01
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