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Rockopolis posted:Grinding up the old lacing to reuse, with bits of old bone in it? Fixed for you.
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Sep 10, 2013 13:46
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Brannock posted:Has anyone gotten their hard copy of the SR 5th book yet? I was just thinking about posting this yesterday. My pre-order on their Web site still says they expect to ship in mid-August, and they haven't answered an email I sent last week asking for an update. There is this page, claiming the standard edition book (the one I ordered) now has a street date of September 25, FWIW.
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Sep 10, 2013 15:10
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Can adepts do any damage in astral combat without Killing Hands or a weapon focus?
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Sep 10, 2013 16:25
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Kai Tave posted:Used doesn't literally have to be used as in you pried it out of a person, it can also just be "this is inferior quality 'ware put in your body by a street doc who sterilizes his tools with Big Bob's Discount Blended Whiskey Product." Used bone lacing is kind of dumb but "this bone lacing is kind of lovely quality but you get what you pay for" isn't, so there you go. Pried it out of someone? Hah! No, no, these are some perfectly good bones, don't worry so much about them. They seem like a little large for you, but don't worry... the cost of the whittling is included with the installation, it's a great deal.
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Sep 10, 2013 16:36
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H posted:Can adepts do any damage in astral combat without Killing Hands or a weapon focus? They don't need astral combat. If they are assensing they are dual natured and can just kill poo poo using physical stats and weapon foci.
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Sep 10, 2013 17:59
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ProfessorCirno posted:Y...yes? Agreeing with me? But I didn't post anything before that? Unless you were agreeing with me in the future from the past.  Time travel, she is a mysterious beast.
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Sep 10, 2013 18:23
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Mystic Mongol posted:What's wrong with these used bones? They fell off the back of a truck, I'm cutting you a deal here. Do you want bonuses to your punches or not? This makes me want to do this in a straight fantasy game. Puts a whole new twist on necromancy when it's just the parts being reanimated. And the horrible frankenfighters who result.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:30
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I figure it's more that it's low grade 'ware than that it's actually used. Like buying Soviet Military surplus gear rather than the top of the line stuff of today.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:36
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Weird Uncle Dave posted:I was just thinking about posting this yesterday. Picked up mine at PAX, they seemed to have a lot. I had no idea the online orders were not shipping yet.
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Sep 10, 2013 20:38
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I don't think I'd buy a hard-copy book until it comes with errata. Any word on that?
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Sep 10, 2013 21:46
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dirtycajun posted:They don't need astral combat. If they are assensing they are dual natured and can just kill poo poo using physical stats and weapon foci. I always read the rules as mental attributes being used to do astral damage. How does astral combat work with dual-natured adepts? Is it Agility/Strength or Willpower/Charisma for the Attack/Damage rolls?
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Sep 10, 2013 22:18
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Gort posted:I don't think I'd buy a hard-copy book until it comes with errata. Any word on that? You'd think they'd try to have the eratta out sometime soon since the physical books will be hitting shelves this month, but I thought they'd have one sooner since the PDF has been available for 3 months but no such luck.
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Sep 10, 2013 23:06
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H posted:I always read the rules as mental attributes being used to do astral damage. How does astral combat work with dual-natured adepts? Is it Agility/Strength or Willpower/Charisma for the Attack/Damage rolls? If they have killing hands or a weapon focus, they can just use unarmed combat or relevant melee skill and do their regular damage to astral beings (*edit* Heck, they don't even need killing hands, although I guess they'd just do stun to an astral body). Being dual natured means they straddle both worlds, and they get to use their meat skills because their spirit is still bound to their bodies. Mental attributes as astral statistics/damage is something that applies to bodiless entities, like an unmanifested spirit or an astrally projecting magician. Similarly, a ghoul or a vampire can punch astrally projecting magicians in the face. The gun book will probably feature Tai Chi as a martial art, allowing you mind punch astral entities (or even manifested spirits to bypass their immunity to weapons) in a way that actually uses a mental stat. *edit edit* I guess I'm technically wrong because page 315 for Astral combat says dual natures use astral combat + willpower. Dual Nature using astral combat as an optional way to fight is fine by me, but having it be the only way to fight is stupid. Of course, it looks like one of the many hands writing the book probably agrees with me. If you look at the critters section, none of the Dual Nature animals/ghouls/vampires have astral combat listed as a skill, despite most of them being predators and the astral combat being a thing they cannot turn off/escape from. So, the template versions are all entirely unable to defend themselves from 50% of their existence. Personally, I find it more parsimonious to ignore the astral combat + willpower rule for dual nature creatures and everything sorts itself out. MilkmanLuke fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 23:08
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MilkmanLuke posted:*edit edit* I guess I'm technically wrong because page 315 for Astral combat says dual natures use astral combat + willpower. Dual Nature using astral combat as an optional way to fight is fine by me, but having it be the only way to fight is stupid. If you don't want watchers to be able to kill hell hounds, you either need to hand out the Astral Combat skill to every dual-natured critter (e.g. astral combat = unarmed combat) or let dual-natured critters use mundane combat skills against astral enemies. I recommend the latter because being dual-natured sucks enough as a PC without also having to pay a skill tax. edit: By far the most frustrating part about SR5 are the number of problems in SR4 that everybody knew about but that they didn't fix despite being really easy and uncontroversial to fix. Gobbeldygook fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 01:51
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Gobbeldygook posted:SR4 had the exact same problem: Astral Combat is trained-only so you can't even try to roll unless you have some and most dual-natured critters lacked Astral Combat. Haha, wow. I literally went all of 4th edition, both playing and GMing, without realizing that is the case. Seriously, I just went back and read it in the 4th ed book to double check. That's pretty funny to me, considering that understanding the magic rules was specifically my specialty in my gaming group.  I guess it doesn't matter in the end. As long as the group is playing with consistent rules that are simple and fun, that's the most important thing in my book.
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Sep 11, 2013 03:29
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Another rules oddity GMs may wish to discuss: There's no strength restriction on who can use a Krime Cannon or a Panther XXL. The Krime Cannon is a little more effective in the hands of a strong user, but there's nothing preventing it from being mounted on a tripod and letting you fire off a full clip of tank blasts before the recoil starts to penalize you. The Panther XXL, on the other hand, is completely bizarre, because as a Single Shot weapon, it has no recoil whatsoever. There's nothing, RAW, that prevents a STR 1 Elf from firing a Panther XXL as effectively as a STR 11 Troll.
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Sep 11, 2013 04:44
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So, I was looking through the sensor section in the combat chapter, and on page 184 it mentions around 5 times the Infiltration skill to defend against sensors. Is this just supposed to be sneaking, or what? I mean they keep using the term, but doesn't make a much sense either with sneaking that you'd be able to avoid the sensor sweep. Also, the contacts have Data Search as a skill, should I just interpret that as they are able to perform the Matrix Search Action at that many dice, so the contact does not need a deck or anything of the sort, just rolls that particular Matrix Action?
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Sep 11, 2013 05:10
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Explorator_Vimes posted:So, I was looking through the sensor section in the combat chapter, and on page 184 it mentions around 5 times the Infiltration skill to defend against sensors. Is this just supposed to be sneaking, or what? I mean they keep using the term, but doesn't make a much sense either with sneaking that you'd be able to avoid the sensor sweep. Infiltration is the skill to get into an area undetected. Guess what, we're in the future and that includes knowing how to time your movement to get past cameras, roll your feet oddly to avoid setting off footstep detectors and spotting and circumventing a dozen other technological dodads. Every system has weaknesses and Infiltration is knowing what these weaknesses are and how to exploit them.
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Sep 11, 2013 05:42
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Mystic Mongol posted:Infiltration is the skill to get into an area undetected. Guess what, we're in the future and that includes knowing how to time your movement to get past cameras, roll your feet oddly to avoid setting off footstep detectors and spotting and circumventing a dozen other technological dodads. Every system has weaknesses and Infiltration is knowing what these weaknesses are and how to exploit them. Yeah, but I think the issue is that 'Infiltration' isn't a skill that exists in the book. There's 'Sneaking', which I'm not sure is meant to be the same thing. I'm even less certain how sneaking would interact with sensors. The whole section on them didn't make a great deal of sense to me.
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Sep 11, 2013 05:47
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The Stealth group used to contain Infiltration, Palming, and Shadowing. It now contains Sneaking, Palming, and Disguise. I believe Sneaking is meant to cover what the Infiltration skill covered in past editions in addition to more mundane sneaking around. It seems clear to me that the person writing that section of the book was not current on what the stealth skills in 5e actually consisted of.
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Sep 11, 2013 05:51
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Vyacheslav posted:Yeah, but I think the issue is that 'Infiltration' isn't a skill that exists in the book. There's 'Sneaking', which I'm not sure is meant to be the same thing. I'm even less certain how sneaking would interact with sensors. The whole section on them didn't make a great deal of sense to me. Everything I think I know about this system is obsolete. (I could have sworn it was a specialty of sneaking, but nope!)
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Sep 11, 2013 06:03
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MilkmanLuke posted:Non-cultured bioware is specifically something you can get used (although probably not bone density unless it's maybe some kind of strips that are surgically laid on top of the bones). The bioware is specifically included in the discussion of alpha, beta, delta, used at the beginning of the Augmentation gear section. Plus, like you said, Cirno, it's a Big Thing in the Shadowrun world to cut fancy hearts or kidneys out of people and sell them on the black market. I like to read "used bioware" as "veterinary-grade bioware." "You like? Will make you strong, like ox, or horse!" "I... I guess I'll take it." "Which? Ox or horse?"
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Sep 11, 2013 06:08
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Another rules oddity GMs may wish to discuss: There's no strength restriction on who can use a Krime Cannon or a Panther XXL. [...] There's nothing, RAW, that prevents a STR 1 Elf from firing a Panther XXL as effectively as a STR 11 Troll. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with mounting stuff on a tripod and then not caring about recoil. That's what they're for.  That's a soldier with a tripod-mounted fully-automatic grenade launcher.
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Sep 11, 2013 06:12
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Gobbeldygook posted:and there's nothing RAW that prevents a Str 1 Elf from firing a light machine gun almost as effectively as a Str 11 troll minus the RC advantage of the troll. Shadowrun abandoned that level of detail in SR4 when it stopped including the exact weight of every single object in the game to a precision of 0.05 kgs. If you're curious, you could carry str * 5 kgs without penalty. An assault rifle weighed 4.5 kgs, an LMG 9, a MMG 12, an HMG 15, and an assault cannon 20. There are still rules for penalization when carrying over str*5 kilograms. It's just up to the GM to eyeball your loadout instead of calculating it by hand, which seems like a good call. I only mention the Krime Cannon being mounted on a tripod as weird because the item's description says it's designed to be used as a hand weapon by trolls. RAW, though, no reason anyone can't mount it on a tripod, true. Probably the main thing you could have going on with the tripod is to point out that, when fully assembled and based on the picture you posted, those things are bulky as all hell when set up like that, so you'd probably need to carry it disassembled and put it together before the fight, which is not an option you have under every circumstance.
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Sep 11, 2013 06:40
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I wonder how far I can make a character jump, so that I can leap from building to building with hilarious ease. Kangaroo man, float like a butterfly sting like a panther xxl. Hydraulic Jacks at rating 6 and light body I think are what is required to make this silly. edit: give him a sniper rifle and full camo. nobody sees this guy moving around the city. edit 2: looks like if I was going to make a silly build I can get it to around 59 meters. that is some ghost in the shell poo poo right there. (elf exceptional agility, boosted agility to max 12, 6 light body ranks, hydraulic lifts at rank 6 for 120% jump distance) dirtycajun fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 06:48
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dirtycajun posted:I wonder how far I can make a character jump, so that I can leap from building to building with hilarious ease. Kangaroo man, float like a butterfly sting like a panther xxl. Your dice pool is Gymnastics+Agility, so you probably want to be an Elf with Agility 8 and Gymnastics 6, with a specialty in jumping. That lets you jump 4 meters standing or 8 meters running just by buying hits, or 26 feet for Americans. Normally, jumping is limited to Agilityx1.5. Your magic will end up being 4, so you could buy 4 levels of Light Body. Hydraulic Jacks only take up 6 capacity. You should get them customized to your Agility 8 and then Enhanced to Agility 11. Your maximum jump distance without Light Body tops off at 1.8*11 or about 20 meters, 65 feet. Light Body 4 increases your Agility by 4 for this calculation, so that increases it to 25 meters, or 82 feet. Your dice pool for jumping Tests will be Agility 14 + Gymnastics 8 + Hydraulic Bonus 1 + Light Body 4 for a total of 27, which only allows you to jump 12 meters or 39 feet consistently, so you need to boost this dice pool. You can afford 4 levels of Improved Ability (Gymnastics) for 4 dice, take a mentor spirit of Cat for 2 dice, and take Natural Athlete for 2 more dice, taking you up to a dice pool of 35 and a grand total of 16 meter jumps from buying hits, putting you up to 52-foot running jumps all day every day. Aptitude (Gymnastics) lets you get the final meter in for 17 meters, which I suspect is the most you can consistently jump from buying hits as a starting character. If you somehow manage to fit some Edge in here, you'll get a dice pool of 14+8+1+4+4+2+2+1 plus Edge of 6 (Let's assume you won't fit in Lucky) for 42 dice; Exploding sixes modifies the expected value of your die pool by 1.2, so on Edged rolls you would be likely to hit your limit of 25 meters, as the dice would give you an average of 16 hits, or 32 meters. If you just roll the dice for a jump without using Edge, you're looking at an average of about 24 meters, right up against your maximum limit. You'll want to put on some STR so you don't get hit by your physical limit, which can also be a limiting factor for a true jumpman. But, bottom line, you can make a character who consistently makes a running jump of 20 meters, does a Hulk-style standing leap of 10 meters. Sadly, the jumping rules limit you to only 1.5 times your standing height for a vertical leap, but with Hydraulic Jacks, you double this, and your vertical leap would be 5 meters from buying hits. Play a tall elf so you can jump that 16 1/2 feet straight up.
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Sep 11, 2013 07:21
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:There are still rules for penalization when carrying over str*5 kilograms. It's just up to the GM to eyeball your loadout instead of calculating it by hand, which seems like a good call. I only mention the Krime Cannon being mounted on a tripod as weird because the item's description says it's designed to be used as a hand weapon by trolls. Shadowrun's always been kind of weird about this. I might be misremembering due to the haze of time but I don't recall 2E having anything more to say about how much strength using a Panther cannon requires than 4E/5E do. It was always one of those "common sense" things as far as I remember.
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Sep 11, 2013 08:44
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Your dice pool is Gymnastics+Agility, so you probably want to be an Elf with Agility 8 and Gymnastics 6, with a specialty in jumping. That lets you jump 4 meters standing or 8 meters running just by buying hits, or 26 feet for Americans. Normally, jumping is limited to Agilityx1.5. Your magic will end up being 4, so you could buy 4 levels of Light Body. Hydraulic Jacks only take up 6 capacity. You should get them customized to your Agility 8 and then Enhanced to Agility 11. Your maximum jump distance without Light Body tops off at 1.8*11 or about 20 meters, 65 feet. Light Body 4 increases your Agility by 4 for this calculation, so that increases it to 25 meters, or 82 feet. Your dice pool for jumping Tests will be Agility 14 + Gymnastics 8 + Hydraulic Bonus 1 + Light Body 4 for a total of 27, which only allows you to jump 12 meters or 39 feet consistently, so you need to boost this dice pool. You can afford 4 levels of Improved Ability (Gymnastics) for 4 dice, take a mentor spirit of Cat for 2 dice, and take Natural Athlete for 2 more dice, taking you up to a dice pool of 35 and a grand total of 16 meter jumps from buying hits, putting you up to 52-foot running jumps all day every day. Aptitude (Gymnastics) lets you get the final meter in for 17 meters, which I suspect is the most you can consistently jump from buying hits as a starting character. If you somehow manage to fit some Edge in here, you'll get a dice pool of 14+8+1+4+4+2+2+1 plus Edge of 6 (Let's assume you won't fit in Lucky) for 42 dice; Exploding sixes modifies the expected value of your die pool by 1.2, so on Edged rolls you would be likely to hit your limit of 25 meters, as the dice would give you an average of 16 hits, or 32 meters. If you just roll the dice for a jump without using Edge, you're looking at an average of about 24 meters, right up against your maximum limit. You'll want to put on some STR so you don't get hit by your physical limit, which can also be a limiting factor for a true jumpman. 1. Hydraulic lifts looks like it reads 20% per rating so rating 6 drops in at 120% increase. 2. I made a mistake and forgot we can not drop special build points into the magic hole left from essence loss so light body 4. 3. Your cyber legs get boosted just like the rest of your body if you agility boost. 4. Gymnastics can only be increased by adept powers 3 times. 5. You totally caught natural athlete dice which I forgot. So max total jumping distance after jacks drops to 52.8 meters [AGI 12+4 light body = effective 16 AGI x 1.5 = 24 + (24 x 1.2)] what you will consistently hit agi 12+ light body 4+ natural athlete 2+ cat like 2+ ranks 9+ hydraulic 1+ specialization 2+ reflex recorder 1 33 dice in the pool gets us to bought 8 hits, so 16m before the jacks increase the jump distance to 35.2 meters on a long jump with no edging!
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Sep 11, 2013 15:42
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Also to throw in on astral critters getting geeked: "Astrally perceiving and dual-natured charac- ters use their physical attributes and skills to fight op- ponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities" pg 315 So if it has a physical body (a manifested spirit lets say) it's beat down time. If you are killing a non manifested spirit? Astral beat down time.
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Sep 11, 2013 15:57
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Meaning 'no punching that Astrally projecting Mage' unless you use your Astral pools, which will suck because you dropped everything into AGI, xXxGr3at3stAd3pt420xXx (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 11, 2013 16:11
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Shockeh posted:Meaning 'no punching that Astrally projecting Mage' unless you use your Astral pools, which will suck because you dropped everything into AGI, xXxGr3at3stAd3pt420xXx Its Astral Combat + Willpower to use unarmed or a weapon focus to attack in Astral Combat, its not like Willpower is going to be terrible. Want to come up with a way to make it work, instead of just taking a big ole' poo poo on the idea? Also: If someone came to your table with Jumpin' Jack, the Jumping Cyber Adept, the last thing on my mind would be 'greatest adept ever' but 'Ok what did they give up to make this stupid idea work'. Like the guy at my missions table playing Brickface, the Troll Adept. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 17:52
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I never said it would be good...
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Sep 11, 2013 18:52
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Brannock posted:Has anyone gotten their hard copy of the SR 5th book yet? Got mine today
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Sep 11, 2013 23:01
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Is it me, or is it not even possible to make alrightish street level rigger? I mean, your initial investment is 49.5K, and then you're looking at 25K or so for an alright vehicle and then... You;ve got 500 nuyen left, enjoy. And that's with priority A in resources, which is a total waste at street level.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:25
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MohawkSatan posted:Is it me, or is it not even possible to make alrightish street level rigger? I mean, your initial investment is 49.5K, and then you're looking at 25K or so for an alright vehicle and then... You;ve got 500 nuyen left, enjoy. And that's with priority A in resources, which is a total waste at street level. E: And it wasn't meant to be a poo poo on the idea; More a suggestion that it's fine you can't just punch Astral bodies. You're already very good as an Adept at murdering physical ones, I like the way it forces you to choose (and opens up the possibility of a more Astrally-focussed Adept)
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Sep 12, 2013 18:47
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MohawkSatan posted:Is it me, or is it not even possible to make alrightish street level rigger? I mean, your initial investment is 49.5K, and then you're looking at 25K or so for an alright vehicle and then... You;ve got 500 nuyen left, enjoy. And that's with priority A in resources, which is a total waste at street level. The street level rules in the book are dumb as poo poo, they totally screw over deckers, street sams, and riggers while doing nothing to anyone else. A better way to do street level is to make the priorities BBCDE or BCCDE instead of ABCDE. That way, everyone has a sacrifice, but you can still have playable characters of any type.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:55
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I always did think a weakness of Shadowrun is that it starts too high-powered and you don't work your way up. Right out of the gate you're a high-level asset to basically any organisation you meet.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:57
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Gort posted:I always did think a weakness of Shadowrun is that it starts too high-powered and you don't work your way up. Right out of the gate you're a high-level asset to basically any organisation you meet. Well, that's kind of the point. Nobody would hire just some random dude with a truck for black ops, would they?
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Sep 13, 2013 00:38
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BenRGamer posted:Well, that's kind of the point. Nobody would hire just some random dude with a truck for black ops, would they? No, but they would hire him for a quick snatch'n'grab of the CEO's daughter (so the corp security is busy gunning down the schmucks while the other team sneaks into the facility to grab some really compromising material from the CEO's own computer). It's a fairly easy problem to solve: just play 2nd Ed. 
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Sep 13, 2013 00:44
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Tippis posted:No, but they would hire him for a quick snatch'n'grab of the CEO's daughter (so the corp security is busy gunning down the schmucks while the other team sneaks into the facility to grab some really compromising material from the CEO's own computer). So.. wait, you want to play expendable shmucks that get in over their head and die? Gee, I can't imagine why those sort wouldn't have half a million nuyen worth of cybernetics or drones.
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Sep 13, 2013 01:43
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