|
Sephyr posted:The thing is, I'm starting to respect Erebus. Hell, he had to work with an uncertain Primarch and a failed Legion to jump-start the heresy, which is no small feat. As for leading the way into damnation, it can be argued that he paved the way to enlightenment instead, as they -did- find the suppressed primordial truth and even people who despised the First Chaplain, like Argel Tal, accepted that it was true. Oh, I don't question his competence, as he and Kor Phaeron orchestrated the heresy and he manages to survive all the way to the 41st millenium as one of the heads of the Word Bearers. But as Shadowhand says, it feels a lot like he was just looking to continue his old religion and increase his own station. He's a power-hungry fanatic, and Argel Tal accepting the 'primordial truth' wasn't so much welcoming Chaos into his heart and worshiping the four, but realizing how hosed up the universe is and developing a measure of nihilism where all he has left to cling to and drive him forward is a shaking loyalty to his increasingly-distant father and to the odd brother-in-arms in whom he manages to find a kindred spirit.
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2013 21:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 08:53 |
|
|
DirtyRobot posted:Do we know what Erebus' motivations are? Or is he moustache twirling just cuz? He does seem to me both immensely power-thirsty and very much untrusting the the intelligence of everyone else when it comes to doing the right thing, the Primarchs particularly. Chaos gives him the power to punch far above his weight in the galaxy and play the others for suckers, so he is pretty much justified in thinking the Four are the greatest thing since storm shields. "It was good to serve. It was even better to serve well."
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 01:54
|
|
|
DirtyRobot posted:Do we know what Erebus' motivations are? Or is he moustache twirling just cuz? Erebus is the best character depending on who writes him. He seems to have been the first, or one of the first to fall to Chaos and he sees himself as the architect of the entire Heresy. I don't know whether we've seen enough to determine if Erebus is in this for himself or for the glory of Chaos but despite all his tricks and schemes, Lorgar notes that he's ultimately just getting played by Chaos.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 02:37
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:I really wish he was more active in the present 40k universe. He does seem like a much more dangerous and realistic Imperium-ending super-villain than Abaddon. Are there any 40k books about Fabius Bile that don't suck? I like that guy, too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 02:54
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:The thing is, I'm starting to respect Erebus. Hell, he had to work with an uncertain Primarch and a failed Legion to jump-start the heresy, which is no small feat. As for leading the way into damnation, it can be argued that he paved the way to enlightenment instead, as they -did- find the suppressed primordial truth and even people who despised the First Chaplain, like Argel Tal, accepted that it was true. That's because the Erebus appearances that make you think he is awesome are by ADB. Who is now writing Abaddon. Abaddon, Unremembered Empire, and Master of Mankind. Next year is gonna own so hard
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 02:56
|
|
|
Shadowhand00 posted:I always imagine that Erebus just accidentally falls into this plot of corrupting the Primarchs. It seems like he was just looking for a reason to go back to worshiping his old gods. Like Kharn and Sevetar he basically had a "broken" primarch. As a result, they were all running the show and having to work around or clean up after their proginator. So you start guiding them to the right answer and trying to minimize how much they add to your workload. At a certain point the thought becomes "it would be easier with this idiot out of the way". And with the Warp Gods, there is a path that makes all that easier. And the easy path begets power which makes everything easier, so now instead of chasing a way to do things better you start chasing power. The means becomes the end. And the constant pursuit of power for powers sake leads to all kinds of bad poo poo. It is very believable really. Typhon, less so, Moratarian was competent. But we are still waiting for a non poo poo author to handle the Death Guard so welp
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 03:04
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:Like Kharn and Sevetar he basically had a "broken" primarch. As a result, they were all running the show and having to work around or clean up after their proginator. So you start guiding them to the right answer and trying to minimize how much they add to your workload. At a certain point the thought becomes "it would be easier with this idiot out of the way". And with the Warp Gods, there is a path that makes all that easier. And the easy path begets power which makes everything easier, so now instead of chasing a way to do things better you start chasing power. The means becomes the end. And the constant pursuit of power for powers sake leads to all kinds of bad poo poo. On the other hand Lorgar vastly surpasses Erebus in very short order since his nature allows him much greater mastery of the powers being offered. I mean Lorgar orchestrated events that would have led to a warp storm consuming all 100 worlds of Ultramar, that ain't no small feat. On another note, I went back to some of the old Grey Knights novels and it got me thinking on the nature of sentience and what makes a demon. The sentient Titan STC makes a deal with chaos and the knight believes it's a demon all along, but it's only when the machine accepts that fact, that it actually becomes true. Obviously this explains well enough why the Imperium distrusts sentient machines (and that whole war thing) but it also proves that machines are themselves completely vulnurable to corruption. What I'd like more information on is why the STC wasn't corrupted until it chose to be corrupted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 05:37
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:On the other hand Lorgar vastly surpasses Erebus in very short order since his nature allows him much greater mastery of the powers being offered. I mean Lorgar orchestrated events that would have led to a warp storm consuming all 100 worlds of Ultramar, that ain't no small feat. In all honesty, because Ben Counter. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 06:23
|
|
|
DirtyRobot posted:Do we know what Erebus' motivations are? Or is he moustache twirling just cuz? He's pretty much the hardest of the hardcore True Believers. He probably knew there was no chance of truly overthrowing the Imperium entirely, and the shattered state of affairs by m41 is the best thing he could hope for.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 06:33
|
|
|
Anyone tried any of the recent Space Marine eShorts? Or maybe not, because they're <1000 words and lol GW pricing. I just found the Mortifactors to have a cool color scheme with the outer part of the helmet painted differently from the inner.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 09:46
|
|
|
Just waiting for the inevitabe, slightly less overpriced compilation to come out. Edit: grammar
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 16:39
|
|
|
Is Phil Kelly a good BL author? I like his codexes generally but I don't know if his short story is any good. Basically, I just want more Iron Hands content.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:21
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Is Phil Kelly a good BL author? I like his codexes generally but I don't know if his short story is any good. According to 1d4chan: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Phil_Kelly quote:Phil Kelly is to codex writing as Dan Abnett is to the Black Library and then some. His fluff actually follows the basic rules of writing (besides being absolutely loving Awesome), his codexes have balance worth a drat, and he has amazing sideburns. Every army that hasn't yet had a codex update prays to the Emprah, Khaine, Ethereals, Chaos Gods, or Hive Mind that Kelly will write their next codex.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 17:58
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:On the other hand Lorgar vastly surpasses Erebus in very short order since his nature allows him much greater mastery of the powers being offered. I mean Lorgar orchestrated events that would have led to a warp storm consuming all 100 worlds of Ultramar, that ain't no small feat. This. After Calth Lorgar is amazingly quick to step out of the shadow of his adoptiove father and advisor and develops into a force of his own. I especially like how ABD sort of retcons the dumbness that was Battle for the Abyss with a snarky paragraph from the primarch. Also, he seems to be the the one primarch other than Magnus who manifests real psyker powers, though he's of course hugely outmatched by his big brother in that regard. Are there any other primarchs who show actual sixth sense powers in the rest of the books? (Other than Curze's premonition, that is)
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 19:01
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:This. After Calth Lorgar is amazingly quick to step out of the shadow of his adoptiove father and advisor and develops into a force of his own. I especially like how ABD sort of retcons the dumbness that was Battle for the Abyss with a snarky paragraph from the primarch. I think fulgrim starts shooting mind goo into titans. Or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 19:22
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Is Phil Kelly a good BL author? I like his codexes generally but I don't know if his short story is any good. Pretty much everything to do with modern Dark Eldar fluff (which is awesome) is from Kelly. How he would translate to longer fiction I don't know, but he certainly has the imagination for large scope and the skill for short codex fluff. He's responsible for the idea that Dark Eldar nobility drink children's tears like we would fine wine. Even though GW made him remove the word 'children' from that passage, it's still one of the most 40k things written in years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 20:30
|
|
|
That's 40k as a drat Space Marine dying horribly fighting insane odds, wow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 20:43
|
|
|
Guess they'd really prize Cystinosis then. Crunchy yummy tears and with the bonus of shredding up their innards if swallowed whole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2013 23:07
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:Also, he seems to be the the one primarch other than Magnus who manifests real psyker powers, though he's of course hugely outmatched by his big brother in that regard. Are there any other primarchs who show actual sixth sense powers in the rest of the books? (Other than Curze's premonition, that is) Leman Russ can cause psykers pain with some kind of psychic roar. Sanguinius has a 6th sense type thing. Corvus shows invisibility powers that are likely a result of psychic manipulation of people's perceptions. Perturabo can see the Eye of Terror from anywhere in the galaxy. The Lion somehow killed incorporeal beasts when he was a kid on Caliban. I have the feeling that all the primarchs are latent psykers due to their shared heiritage, and that under the Emperor's guidance they likely would have grown up actually knowing how to properly use their abilities. Instead though, Lorgar constantly dreams of a voice calling to him, Kruze is driven insane by visions of his own death, etc. etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 01:01
|
|
|
Anonymous Zebra posted:Leman Russ can cause psykers pain with some kind of psychic roar. Last I checked they explicit say that Kurze's foresight was not warp related but something else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Last I checked they explicit say that Kurze's foresight was not warp related but something else. There is ether: A) ~Warp Magic~ B) Ancient Technology from the Dark Age C) C'Tans Did It. UberJumper fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 05:08
|
|
|
UberJumper posted:There is ether: D) Erebus did It.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 11:11
|
|
|
CreepyGuy9000 posted:D) Erebus did It. See A.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 16:20
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Last I checked they explicit say that Kurze's foresight was not warp related but something else. Where did they say that? I could have sworn there was something about it not being a normal psyker power, but it still draws on the warp. . .
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 16:22
|
|
|
I think that while the primarchs all have a certain amount of inner power due to their heavy infusions of warpstuff during their gestation, Magnus embodied mastery over warpcraft, and Lorgar represented the awe-inspiring, golden aura that so many people saw in the emperor, which is another, less magicky but still warp-related deal. It's said his face resembled the E's the most of all the primarchs, and had the same way of displaying multiple facets of himself as his dad as well. I think Magnus and Lorgar are the most warp-attuned of their brothers, due to their roles of a master of sorcery and a charismatic spiritualist.
One Legged Cat fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:04
|
|
|
One Legged Cat posted:I think that while the primarchs all have a certain amount of inner power due to their heavy infusions of warpstuff during their gestation, Magnus embodied mastery over warpcraft, and Lorgar represented the awe-inspiring, golden aura that so many people saw in the emperor, which is another, less magicky but still warp-related deal. It's said his face resembled the E's the most of all the primarchs, and had the same way of displaying multiple facets of himself as his dad as well. I think Magnus and Lorgar are the most warp-attuned of their brothers, due to their roles of a master of sorcery and a charismatic spiritualist. Isn't Sanguinius supposed to be the most psychically gifted one after Magnus?
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:16
|
|
|
Cream_Filling posted:Isn't Sanguinius supposed to be the most psychically gifted one after Magnus? Most warp touched, perhaps. Before Fulgrim goes full Daemon, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:30
|
|
|
Cream_Filling posted:Isn't Sanguinius supposed to be the most psychically gifted one after Magnus? Those wings must have been massive unarmored flesh targets that should have gotten torn to shreds the moment he was in a warzone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:32
|
|
|
Just because they don't move mountains with their mind or fire lightning off their fingertips doesn't mean they don't have psychic powers - passively, it's the kind of thing that allows you to resist said lightning being fired at you, or great feats of speed or strength, or vanquish powerful greater daemons back into the warp even if fighting them with just conventional weapons. A good example is Russ vs Magnus. It doesn't matter how tough or fast Russ is, or what anti-psychic measures had been applied to his wargear - if that was just it, Magnus could've easily crushed his heart or burnt him to cinders with a thought. But he couldn't, and Russ forced the second most powerful psychic entity in the galaxy into a physical fight where he had the advantage. Also compare to Calgar being thrown around by Kor Phaeron like a ragdoll. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
Plus in Know no Fear Guilliman fights and survives in the vacuum of space for hours. So, you know, the fuckers are supernaturally hard to kill.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:38
|
|
|
VanSandman posted:Most warp touched, perhaps. Before Fulgrim goes full Daemon, anyway. Well we know he can see the future, has some sort of psychic connection to each of his sons, and on his death he creates a huge psychic backlash that leads to the black rage. Also he can fly, which probably is physically impossible without warp magic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 20:45
|
|
|
One Legged Cat posted:I think Magnus and Lorgar are the most warp-attuned of their brothers, due to their roles of a master of sorcery and a charismatic spiritualist. I think its Betrayer where Lorgar throws up some sort of psychic shield against a titan, and Kharn describes him as ripping gunships out of the sky with nothing but his spite. So theres probably more to his powers than just charisma.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 21:19
|
|
|
Fatty posted:I think its Betrayer where Lorgar throws up some sort of psychic shield against a titan, and Kharn describes him as ripping gunships out of the sky with nothing but his spite. So theres probably more to his powers than just charisma. Yeah, that's just speaking of the primarchs in the 'aspects of the Emperor' sense. Lorgar and Magnus were very close, talking philosophy and warpstuff for days straight, when the other primarchs were generally uninterested in superstitious nonsense. They're the two that are at least the most aware that there definitely is supernatural poo poo in the world, although Lorgar's connection was stunted compared to Magnus', as he was unaware about the 'higher powers' that existed in the warp. Lorgar had a lot of psychic power and potential, but confessed to Magnus that he wished he could understand and shape the warp the way Magnus could. Magnus even warned Lorgar against dabbling in that poo poo, saying "you really don't wanna go seeking answers from the things in the warp. Don't ask, just trust me." At least until Lorgar flies into the Eye of Terror and communes with the dark gods and presumably grasps the full extent of his innate powers. Even then, his method of warp manipulation is like, in D&D terms, a Cleric to Magnus' Wizard. More about worship and stimulating the warp with raw psychic input and coaxing gods and daemons, whereas Magnus is more the type to work the warp down to formulas and incantations and sorcerous poo poo. One Legged Cat fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Sep 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 22:50
|
|
|
Magnus took to sorcery but at the very least it was still the purview of the Chaos Gods. His attempts to cure the Thousand Sons geneseed only worked by bargaining with the Chaos gods,Tzeenetch I think, and when he appeared to Horus in the fever dream he had to sacrifice tons of psykers to feed him the power to do it. Whatever Magnus thought he was getting away with it was still a corrupting influence just waiting for him to give up and accept chaos.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2013 23:09
|
|
|
That's actually my favorite aspect of that book. It's written as some kind of tragedy, but the Emperor was absolutely right and Magnus WAS corrupted before the book even begins. His legion is using daemons as spirit guides, he made a deal with a Warp God to keep the gene seed stable, and his arrogant soldiers only needed a tiny push to go full chaos.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 05:04
|
|
|
Anonymous Zebra posted:That's actually my favorite aspect of that book. It's written as some kind of tragedy, but the Emperor was absolutely right and Magnus WAS corrupted before the book even begins. His legion is using daemons as spirit guides, he made a deal with a Warp God to keep the gene seed stable, and his arrogant soldiers only needed a tiny push to go full chaos. I don't know if the spirit guides were real demons, because if they were the Emperor would definitely have known the second he laid eyes on any Thousand Son.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 05:53
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:I don't know if the spirit guides were real demons, because if they were the Emperor would definitely have known the second he laid eyes on any Thousand Son. I think they were real Demons and I thought maybe it was something they had learnt a lot later on, but It has been suggested that they have always been with the thousand sons and that the "Tutelaries" were actually responsible for the mutations. How they went undetected by the Emperor is a mystery but he missed a lot of less subtle stuff.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 08:34
|
|
|
IIRC, Tutelaries hid whenever they were in the presence of people who could identify them. This is noted by several Thousand Sons, but they think nothing of it, believing them to be benign entities under their control, and just being skittish.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 08:42
|
|
|
yes they are pretty obviously demons. The Emprah is not omniscient or omnipresent, there is no reason to believe he would know that the Thousand Sons (who were already a very closed legion due to their mutations) were interacting with denizens of the warp on a daily basis.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 10:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 08:53 |
|
|
The Emperor had also been withdrawn for some time from the Crusade, so the Tutelaries/Daemons could have been implemented after that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2013 13:57
|
|