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GanjamonII posted:Does this mean it is NOT up to code? If so is it a matter of replacing the breaker with a 15a one? Or do I need to go and replace all the wiring with 12 awg. This is for a bedroom (4 outlets, light + fan) and it also has an attached small bathroom with 1 light and GFCI protected outlets. We also want to add a bathroom vent fan to the bathroom in the future. Lots of things aren't up to current code but are still OK based on when they were installed. Current code requires a 20A circuit to bathroom outlets. It may be shared with another bathroom, but no other room. If it is a circuit for a single bathroom you are permitted to put the lights on it as well. As for the wire gauge/breaker, yeah....you need to pull 12 or put a 15 in there. If you want to do it right, put a 15 amp in for the bedroom and make a new run of 12 to the bathroom only using the 20 amp breaker.
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Apr 28, 2014 16:07
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Motronic posted:Lots of things aren't up to current code but are still OK based on when they were installed. Speaking of not up to current code, if you do end up swapping breakers, keep in mind that living spaces now require AFCI breakers too of the proper amperages. For the most part, AFCI protection is required everywhere that GFCIs are not and vice versa.
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Apr 28, 2014 16:23
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Thanks for all the info. I will have to go double check the wiring in the bathroom, but as far as I can see the wiring from the panel is 14 gauge anyway. I would have thought they would have updated that when they did that bathroom, since it was built during the renovation (2008, not 2005).
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Apr 28, 2014 22:45
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GanjamonII posted:Thanks for all the info. I will have to go double check the wiring in the bathroom, but as far as I can see the wiring from the panel is 14 gauge anyway. I would have thought they would have updated that when they did that bathroom, since it was built during the renovation (2008, not 2005). If they didn't bother to put it on an appropriate dedicated circuit then don't count on much of anything else being done to code.
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Apr 29, 2014 00:19
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kid sinister posted:Speaking of not up to current code, if you do end up swapping breakers, keep in mind that living spaces now require AFCI breakers too of the proper amperages. For the most part, AFCI protection is required everywhere that GFCIs are not and vice versa. Actually, 2014 expands more than that. AFCI is required essentially everywhere except the garage, and GFCI required for receptacles pretty much everywhere you have water access (kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, garage, etc). This does mean putting GFCI receptacles on AFCI breakers when serving places like the kitchen.
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Apr 29, 2014 04:32
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Do they make any breakers that are both AFCI and GFCI in one? Seems like that's they way the code is going and its only a matter of time before every outlet needs both types of protection.
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Apr 29, 2014 06:15
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sbyers77 posted:Do they make any breakers that are both AFCI and GFCI in one? Seems like that's they way the code is going and its only a matter of time before every outlet needs both types of protection. GFCI protection is only a requirement for receptacles, whereas the AFCI requirement is for "outlets and devices" which includes switches and lighting as well as receptacles. Multifunction breakers would be the best, but I have only ever heard rumors about them, never actually seen them. I do commercial/industrial not residential so it's not something I've really had to look into finding anyways, outside of curiosity. edit for some linkage http://www.constructionexec.com/Articles/tabid/3837/entryid/1762/drilling-into-the-2014-national-electrical-code-updates.aspx
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Apr 29, 2014 13:48
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Jarp Habib posted:Actually, 2014 expands more than that. AFCI is required essentially everywhere except the garage, and GFCI required for receptacles pretty much everywhere you have water access (kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, garage, etc). This does mean putting GFCI receptacles on AFCI breakers when serving places like the kitchen. Thanks for the update, I don't have a 2014 book yet. Now that AFCI outlets have hit the market, does the 2014 codebook still require them to be installed in metal-clad cable from breaker to box? sbyers77 posted:Do they make any breakers that are both AFCI and GFCI in one? Yes and no. Well, more like "some old AFCIs were marked as such, but their AFCI portion is no longer up to modern code". Modern AFCI breakers are "combo" AFCIs that offer 2 modes of detection: parallel arcing and series arcing. Well, the first generation of AFCIs called "Branch/Feeder" only had parallel detection. During that generation, some manufacturers managed to cram GFCI protection alongside that parallel AFCI and marketed them as such. Now that AFCIs must be combo types, these older breakers are no longer up to code for AFCI use. edit: To clarify further, most AFCIs today offer some form of ground fault detection, but not up to the level of quality necessary to mark and market them as such. Modern Class A GFCIs are required to detect faults down to 6 mA. The ground fault protection level on AFCIs isn't set in code, but manufacturers voluntarily keep it around 30 mA. So until the manufacturers manage to cram GFCI protection into a combo AFCI breaker that can detect a fault 5 times as small, you won't see any marketed as such. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 18:07
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visuvius posted:I've got an issue with one of the power outlets in my home. I live in a condo with the garage underneath and the problem is with the power outlet in that garage. The problem is that the power outlet will just stop working randomly for no apparent reason. The other electrical devices and lights in the garage work it just seems to be that one outlet. The garage door opener and it's light are fine, the washer and dryer continue to work, and the main halogen lamp in the garage works. I haven't really been able to pin down a pattern, it seems kind of random. It wouldn't really be a big deal if it weren't the outlet right above my hobby desk. I posted this a while back. General consensus here was, replace the outlet. I finally called the electrician through my home warranty. Turns out that the garage sits right above the bathroom which has a GFCI outlet. That bathroom outlet and the garage outlet were connected. When my wife would use that bathroom and run her hair straightener or whatever, it would trip the GFCI and kill the garage outlet. I'm kind of annoyed I spent $60 to find that out but I feel like I would have never figured it out on my own. Tricky poo poo.
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May 9, 2014 18:16
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What's the best option for replacing, or retrofitting, T12 8' single pin two-bulb fixtures? Trying to get the lights going in my shop, and I guess age and temp change/humidity/disuse have claimed all 11 ballasts in the main bay area. I assumed it was bad voltage/ loose neutral but it checks out. Anyway, the lights are about 18' up, 40x60 metal building. What's the best and most cost efficient option? Recommendations on color temp as well please. Edit: fixtures were run with EMT conduit, and given their height and my lack of proper equipment (ladder in back of pickup truck, probably) please give weight to retrofit options with quick installation time. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 19:29
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angryrobots posted:What's the best option for replacing, or retrofitting, T12 8' single pin two-bulb fixtures? The 4-6 lamp mirrored T5 fixtures are awesome and put out a poo poo ton of light. They are expensive, but very good on power consumption so you'll probably want to figure if that works out based on how much the lights are on. As far as color temperature, I always like the Philips Alto daylight bulbs. They're 6500k. I wouldn't go any warmer than 5000k in a shop. Edit in response to your edit: changing a full fixture as compared to changing a ballast for a retrofit while overhead isn't significantly more complicated or time consuming in my opinion. But either way you need a proper ladder. Putting a step ladder in a pickup truck bed is a dumb idea. Motronic fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 19:46
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Having to take down and re run all that pipe and wire, and hang different fixtures is indeed more time consuming? I'm familiar with the mirrored 2x4 t5 fixtures, but was hoping for something more frugal on cost. Anyone mess with the LED retrofit tubes? I saw some in a convenience store the other day.
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May 9, 2014 20:32
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angryrobots posted:Having to take down and re run all that pipe and wire, and hang different fixtures is indeed more time consuming? Why would you need to move any EMT? Just put the new fixtures where the old ones were. They're smaller, but they throw down more light. No need to change spacing unless it was wrong to begin with. angryrobots posted:I'm familiar with the mirrored 2x4 t5 fixtures, but was hoping for something more frugal on cost. Then just throw in replacement ballasts and call it a day. That's the cheapest up-front money thing to do. The quality of most LED retro tubes is a joke. Good ones will cost nearly what new fixtures + bulbs are going for. If the lights are on a lot it's going to be cheaper to replace with something more efficient.
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May 9, 2014 20:53
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Motronic posted:Why would you need to move any EMT? Just put the new fixtures where the old ones were. They're smaller, but they throw down more light. No need to change spacing unless it was wrong to begin with. If I wasn't on a budget here, I'd definitely go with those, I know they are impressive. I may just get 4 or so going for now and re run it later. I need light. quote:Then just throw in replacement ballasts and call it a day. That's the cheapest up-front money thing to do. They're not on a lot, maximum efficiency fixtures aren't a big concern.
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May 9, 2014 21:25
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angryrobots posted:Unless I miss your meaning, you're suggesting I replace the 8' fixtures with 2'x4' fixtures. The lights are run end to end, so every conduit would be too short. If they're end to end (not what I was assuming) then you're just 4' of emt short. Add a collar and a couple clamps and it's done. They cast more than enough light to make up the difference. Depending on your actual layout it might make sense to center them where the old fixtures were, so you'd need 2' sections of EMT for the ends. EMT is very easy to work with. But it doesn't look like that matters based on your budget. angryrobots posted:So you're saying retrofit to t8? Why even retro to T8? Then you need all new bulbs. But if that's what you're looking to do it's relatively simple. Just replace the ballasts and install shunted bi-pin lamp holders. Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes per fixture once you're gotten through the first couple. Edit: and if efficiency isn't that important, just retro the ones that have problems for now. You'll have spare T12 bulbs around that should last you a while. Keep retrofitting as you run ouit of bulbs or the ballasts take dumps. Motronic fucked around with this message at 21:35 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 21:33
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Is there such a thing as a wireless thermostat? Not wifi programable but no wire to run? I have an old home with a wall furnace and no access to under the house. I can do something like put it behind trim or something and run into the wall from there but not sure if anything exists that would active a switch that was separate from my furnace. My thermostat is super simple just acting as a gate/ switch.
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May 10, 2014 00:26
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tater_salad posted:Is there such a thing as a wireless thermostat? Not wifi programable but no wire to run? I've never heard of such a thing. That being said, what is wrong the existing wiring for your thermostat forcing you to upgrade? Also, there are tons of ways to hide wire, especially something as small as low voltage 2-wire thermostat cable, which it sounds like what you need for just a furnace without AC. What's your construction, slab or crawl space?
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May 10, 2014 00:49
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tater_salad posted:Is there such a thing as a wireless thermostat? Not wifi programable but no wire to run? They exist: http://www.venstar.com/Thermostats/WirelessR/ I can't say I've ever used one.
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May 10, 2014 00:56
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kid sinister posted:I've never heard of such a thing. That being said, what is wrong the existing wiring for your thermostat forcing you to upgrade? Old furnace had the thermostat on the case. Technicaly crawl space but the home is like 10 inches above with no real access. This is 0 voltage wire.
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May 10, 2014 01:01
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tater_salad posted:Is there such a thing as a wireless thermostat? Not wifi programable but no wire to run? Yes, they exist, but everything I've seen is for 24vac furnaces. If your wall heater is line voltage you could still use one, but you'd have to do something else at the receiver end (24vac transformer and an appropriately sized contactor).
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May 10, 2014 01:02
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Motronic posted:Yes, they exist, but everything I've seen is for 24vac furnaces. If your wall heater is line voltage you could still use one, but you'd have to do something else at the receiver end (24vac transformer and an appropriately sized contactor). I may nix the idea, after a bit more diggingm the 2 I found that were wireless(not wifi) were $100+ +$35 for a 24v transformer to a wall outlet. Unless you have a blower no voltage is needed.. My home is ~1100sqft and I have no blower, the last heater (50+ years old) did a fine job without the blower so I opted not to go with it, and have to try and wire it up, as that would require cutting the wall etc. It was a hope and at $50 I would have considered it, but at around $200 it doesn't seem worth it.
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May 10, 2014 01:11
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tater_salad posted:Unless you have a blower no voltage is needed. That's not how electricity works. So unless you're looking for a wireless thermostat that has a receiver with a big cartoon hand that flips a switch on and off on the other side, voltage and amperage are absolutely considerations.
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May 10, 2014 02:02
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Motronic posted:Why even retro to T8? Then you need all new bulbs. Going t5 would mean something like $1500, or more? T8 retrofits (8' 4 bulb) are 30 bucks on eBay, even say 50 bucks a fixture I'm only at 550 to do the whole place. I'd have to burn a whole hell of a lot of kWh to make that back up.
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May 10, 2014 02:11
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Yeah now that I think of it the thing must have some kind of current flow. Did some research and finally found There is a 750mV generator powered by the pilot, not enough to operate anything but the gas valve. There are 0 external power hookups, trust me the old one had none, the new one fires up and runs without one. Edit, I wasn't looking for a cartoon option but Def not a $200 option for an $700 furnace. tater_salad fucked around with this message at 02:22 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 02:14
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angryrobots posted:Because I thought t12 was being phased out, and it made no sense to repair them? New ballast production ended 4 years ago. And producers stocked up because they knew there was going to be a market for a long time. My local supply houses have cases of them still. There are so many in service that bulbs are being manufactured as far as I know. If you don't care about efficiency, are cost conscious, and are asking about ease of repair/time and have a choice of changing a ballast or a ballast+lamp holders+bulbs I'm pretty sure I know which one I would choose if the ballasts were even close to the same price (and they are where I'm shopping).
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May 10, 2014 02:32
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Yeah, I'd agree with that if they are still that readily available. We re did the lights in the mechanic shop at work a couple years ago, one of the reasons was they said it was getting hard to find bulbs. I never had any reason to buy any myself, so I assumed they knew what they were talking about.
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May 10, 2014 02:47
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angryrobots posted:Yeah, I'd agree with that if they are still that readily available. We re did the lights in the mechanic shop at work a couple years ago, one of the reasons was they said it was getting hard to find bulbs. In a professional shop (assuming lights on at least 40 hours a week) it would be short sighted to not go to at least T8. They will pay for themselves in energy costs before you go through the first set of bulbs. And if you know your way around energy credits you might just be able to get T5s that pay for themselves even faster. Motronic fucked around with this message at 03:12 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 03:09
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Not home wiring, but a device question: I have this bike helmet light, and the cable connecting the front light to the rear light ripped out of where it connects to the rear light. I took the rear light apart, and I believe I found the three spots where the wires were connected (lower left, labeled 'GRN' 'BLK' 'RED')  Would it be likely all I need to do to fix it is to re-solder the wires back onto their respective spots on that board?
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May 12, 2014 15:39
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me your dad posted:Would it be likely all I need to do to fix it is to re-solder the wires back onto their respective spots on that board? Yes
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May 12, 2014 18:06
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I just bought a house, and need to buy appliances. I'm getting an electric stove in August due to my parents moving in with us and bringing their stove. I'll have to add a 220 line for it at some point. Right now, the house is configured for gas appliances, so I've been looking at gas dryers, and they're way more expensive than the electric. Since I have to add a 220 line anyways for the stove when it moves to the new house, how bad of an idea would it be to add the 220 line now and run two outlets from it, one for an electric dryer and one for the stove? They'll both be in the basement and never used a t the same time, as the stove is only going to be for holiday get-togethers. I'd add two lines, but there's only enough room in the box for one.
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May 28, 2014 15:13
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BobbyDrake posted:I just bought a house, and need to buy appliances. I'm getting an electric stove in August due to my parents moving in with us and bringing their stove. I'll have to add a 220 line for it at some point. Right now, the house is configured for gas appliances, so I've been looking at gas dryers, and they're way more expensive than the electric. Since I have to add a 220 line anyways for the stove when it moves to the new house, how bad of an idea would it be to add the 220 line now and run two outlets from it, one for an electric dryer and one for the stove? They'll both be in the basement and never used a t the same time, as the stove is only going to be for holiday get-togethers. I'd add two lines, but there's only enough room in the box for one. This is a bad idea, and likely not to code (depending on where you live). A range is going to be 50 or 60 amp, a dryer more like 30 amp. While you COULD find a 100 amp breaker and size the wire appropriately, it's not going to be cheap or easy to work with.
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May 28, 2014 15:31
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Motronic posted:This is a bad idea, and likely not to code (depending on where you live). Fair enough, I figured it was, I thought I had heard that you should only do one outlet per 220 line, but was curious/being cheap. Oh well, I'd only be saving 150 bucks, which would probably just go to materials for it anyways. BobbyDrake fucked around with this message at 16:21 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 16:18
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BobbyDrake posted:Fair enough, I figured it was, I thought I had heard that you should only do one out let per 220 line, but was curious/being cheap. Oh well, I'd only be saving 150 bucks, which would probably just go to materials for it anyways. You can have multiple outlets on a 220 circuit if they are done correctly. You rarely see that because "correctly" usually pushes them into the stupidly expensive breaker range as well as obnoxiously expensive, thick, and difficult to work with wire since most things in a US home that require 220v are 30+ amps.
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May 28, 2014 16:22
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On that note: I put a 220 outlet in my garage, but it's just for a few power tools that each draw 10A or less when wired up for 220. I never run more than one at once, but I have a few of them, so I put in a 4-outlet box on a 15A 220 breaker. The wire is sized appropriately. It was originally a 120 circuit so I marked the now-hot neutral everywhere it can be accessed. The outlets are 6-15s. That all sound legit? 
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May 28, 2014 16:27
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BobbyDrake posted:Fair enough, I figured it was, I thought I had heard that you should only do one outlet per 220 line, but was curious/being cheap. Oh well, I'd only be saving 150 bucks, which would probably just go to materials for it anyways. You could put a 220 volt 100 amp breaker in your current panel and run that to a sub panel where you could put in 2 220 volt breakers and wire the outlets from there. Then you would have some open slots if you would need them in the future.
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May 28, 2014 16:44
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Bad Munki posted:On that note: I put a 220 outlet in my garage, but it's just for a few power tools that each draw 10A or less when wired up for 220. I never run more than one at once, but I have a few of them, so I put in a 4-outlet box on a 15A 220 breaker. The wire is sized appropriately. It was originally a 120 circuit so I marked the now-hot neutral everywhere it can be accessed. The outlets are 6-15s. That all sound legit? It's a bit "oddball" because it's not a dedicated outlet, which is what I was talking about before, but it is 220v. If I were looking at that setup I'd say it's fine - it's being used as a standard non-dedicated outlet circuit, just for 220v.
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May 28, 2014 16:52
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Okay. I made an effort to follow code to the best of my knowledge. (In fact I think it was this very thread I was spamming with questions about it when I did it, but I always like to check that I didn't do something wrong.)
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May 28, 2014 16:54
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Just bought a house. Yay. Most of the upstairs receptacles are old 2-prong ones. Boo. The panel itself looks great (only a few years old, 200-amp service, whoever did the work knew what he was doing), but it's definitely old cloth-covered NM on these circuits. I don't close for a couple of months so I haven't opened things up to the extent of checking whether it's cloth NM without a ground or with an undersized ground, or if the ground (if any) is actually connected to the receptacles or the metal outlet boxes or just snipped off and ignored. But the bottom line is that, ground wire or no ground wire, it's kosher if I stick a GFCI receptacle at the start of that branch circuit and feed the rest of those receptacles from the GFCI, right? Also: I know code requires AFCI in most situations now. I used to be an electrician's assistant but that was before those were a requirement, so I'm not sure how these interact with GFCI or if there are other requirements I'm not aware of. Are there combination AF/GFCI receptacles? If I use a GFCI receptacle on a circuit, can I run that circuit off an AFCI breaker in the panel? Or vice versa?
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May 28, 2014 19:39
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Phanatic posted:But the bottom line is that, ground wire or no ground wire, it's kosher if I stick a GFCI receptacle at the start of that branch circuit and feed the rest of those receptacles from the GFCI, right? EDIT: I totally missed the AFCI component of this. Listen to what Kid Sinister says below. Motronic fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 19:45
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Phanatic posted:Are there combination AF/GFCI receptacles? If I use a GFCI receptacle on a circuit, can I run that circuit off an AFCI breaker in the panel? Or vice versa? Nope. AFCI outlets just came out recently, and code use for them is very strict. They're only allowed in the first box on a circuit, with metalclad cable from that box to the panel box, either in conduit or spiral wrapped. Over 99% of old residential wiring is not like this, which means the best route for AFCI retrofits is to use breakers. If by some miracle the first box has metalclad cable, then you would run into a second problem with the AFCI outlet having the grounding slot. Only GFCI-protected outlets are allowed to have grounding slots, so that first box still wouldn't be to code. About the only way to use an AFCI outlet would be for new construction which requires a ground wire anyway, making GFCI protection only necessary for its usual places (sinks, basements, outdoors). This means that for retrofits, put a GFCI outlet on an AFCI breaker and then put up all the necessary stickers. Now there used to be breakers that were marketed as AFCI/GFCI combo breakers, but their AFCI portion no longer meets modern code. I explained that a bit farther up this same page. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 00:27 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 00:23
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