|
mastajake posted:ASoIaF Book 8: Turns out, everyone's a Targaryon! Ya that'd be too many Targs. Needs to be Aegon, Dany and Jon. 3 heads, 3 people. Jon wins it all.
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
mastajake posted:I guess I need to re-read the books. I thought Victarion (the whole ironborn plot, really) was lame. And that definitely seems to be in the minority. I was with you on this, but I may have just been getting tired of new plots after working through the books pretty rapidly. It might be different when you had to wait several generations for a new book to be written.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
The secretest Targ was you, all along!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The secretest Targ was you, all along! I knew my mother was having an affair with that ethereally pretty silver-blonde guy!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 05:24
|
|
|
Cornwind Evil posted:it was pointed out that I'd misread the flashback prophecy scene and that Cersei had murdered her own best friend as a child, it vanished. wait whut now? I'm too lazy to dig up my books - give me the 411? InFlames235 posted:
It is pretty bad rear end and all, but what does he actually contribute to the plot? In the books he brings the Horn from old valyria, which I assume matters in controlling the dragons, but there are plenty of ways they could write that poo poo in. They have a limited number of episodes to tell a rapidly expanding story. To me it seems like cutting the gently caress out of new characters is the only way for them to go. PS: What ever happened to the loving Horn of Joramum. Remembered when that, and dragonglass, like.. mattered? Is that old horn that mance found actually a dragon controlling horn? PPS: In the book - whatever happened to the fuckers at craster's keep?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 06:09
|
|
|
InFlames235 posted:Ya that'd be too many Targs. Needs to be Aegon, Dany and Jon. 3 heads, 3 people. Jon wins it all. gently caress Aegon. Hope he dies.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 06:34
|
|
|
kcroy posted:PPS: In the book - whatever happened to the fuckers at craster's keep? Coldhands kills them
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 06:40
|
|
|
InFlames235 posted:Coldhands kills them for serious?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 07:05
|
|
|
kcroy posted:wait whut now? I'm too lazy to dig up my books - give me the 411? cersei remembers going to see robbs wifes grandmother something spicer , from somepalce in essos. she is a fortune teller. she tells cersei and her friend some thngs, one of them being that all of her kids will die before her and she wont have any children by robert. then she pushes her friend down a well because she thinks that no one knowing about the prophecy means it wont come true. the horn that mance found wasnt the horn of joramun, probably. but maybe its the one sam/jon found. or maybe its the one that gets blown inside of winterfell. i think summer and coldhands and meera killed the mutineers? i know coldhands fed them to meera and jojen and bran (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 07:15
|
|
|
jsoh posted:cersei remembers going to see robbs wifes grandmother something spicer , from somepalce in essos. she is a fortune teller. she tells cersei and her friend some thngs, one of them being that all of her kids will die before her and she wont have any children by robert. then she pushes her friend down a well because she thinks that no one knowing about the prophecy means it wont come true. I forgot about that top part.. I didn't realize Cersei killed her. Or maybe I forgot. What does this mean "the one that gets blown inside of winterfell" I definitely didn't get the part about coldhands and them feeding them to meera/jojen/bran... For some reason - I was able to reread and enjoy the other books, but I only gave ADWD a quick read through.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 07:19
|
|
|
during "a ghost in winterfell" there is a sounding of a horn, twice, as well as drumming. the drumming is definitely from outside but the horn maybe isnt. mance is in the castle at this point and may be in the crypts, looking about for magical artefacts from the kings of winter. the horn that is blown is blown twice, signalling wildlings maybe. maybe not? speculation!
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 08:58
|
|
|
kcroy posted:I forgot about that top part.. I didn't realize Cersei killed her. Or maybe I forgot. You didn't forget, nowhere it is said that Cersei killed her. It's implied but so vaguely that most people miss it I suppose (or at least I did).
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 09:09
|
|
|
doesn't she like, explicitly remember thinking about how if no one ever talks about a prophecy it never comes true, and then it goes right to her friend at the bottom of a well
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 09:16
|
|
|
when does sersí go explore swamps
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 09:28
|
|
|
I originally read the scene as Cersei hearing her fortune and her friends' (and that her friend would soon die) and when her friend died, she felt trapped by the prophecy that the only way she'd ever be anything is by being a piece of meat to be passed around, and that eventually made her so drat embittered that she ended up sociopathic because of it. But as said, it is very much implied Cersei pushed her friend into the well herself. I always read it as one of two ways. 1) She was jealous that her friend wanted Jaime, and hence committed murder when she was what...ten years old? 2) She WANTED the prophecy to come true, wanting the power that came with it without thinking of the aftermath (a younger queen will cast you down, you will outlive your children, you will be strangled by a brother in some form), and hence she murdered her friend to ensure its passing. Which means she was willing to kill her own best friend, as a child, for power. The woman's a soulless monster. Littlefinger got twisted into the villain he is, Gregor is a genetic freak with likely far, FAR too much testosterone and who knows what was causing his headaches. Tywin watched his father's kindness be abused to the point where he cut himself off from anything resembling empathy, Joffrey was raised by a delusional selfish father and a monstrous mother who just wanted him as an avatar for power, along with no consequences, and who knows what genetic damage the incest caused that made him more prone to what he came. If Dany ends up the villain, she has the same incest-based mental risks, she was forced into great hardship at a young age, she was sold to a man who may have more or less raped her into Stockholm syndrome, she had her attempts to help thrown back in her face as not enough, she was handed incredible power, and then she set out to try and right wrongs only to find the wrongs were so systematically ingrained in the civilizations she was passing through she might as well have been trying to bail out the oceans with a bucket, and she's not even twenty years old, hell in the books she's not even sixteen. But Cersei had no demons, no abuses, no troubles. She was in the best position possible, and yet she was still so screwed up she murdered her own best friend as a child. Some people are just born bad. GRRM's very nasty point is that everyone assumes it of Tyrion, the ugly dwarf, and hence get hosed over because it's really the golden child and beauty. Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 11:16 on May 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 09:39
|
|
|
well, she was raised by that father who had no empathy, and lost her mother very young, and also had that same incest filled ancestry (tywin and joanna were first cousin) as well as being raped over and over and over and over and over for 16 years.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 09:52
|
|
|
Try not to forget that the stupid girl said she wanted Jaime that same night, where Cersei could hear her.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 11:10
|
|
|
jsoh posted:well, she was raised by that father who had no empathy, and lost her mother very young, and also had that same incest filled ancestry (tywin and joanna were first cousin) as well as being raped over and over and over and over and over for 16 years. If the rape you are referring to is Robert, that started when she was an adult, or at least in her late teens. One could argue that it was the immense pressures and troubles that Viserys and Dany were raised under that led to their incest-based birth issues kicking off (Rhaegar, after all, seemed nearly perfect, and even Aegon took time to become the mad king), or in Dany's case, possibly ticking beneath the surface ready to explode. And yes, Tywin's heartlessness and the loss of their mother would have left their mask on Cersei, but Jaime was exposed to the same and he didn't turn out that way. It's been suggested that due to how brains develop, children are innately sociopathic until their minds have grown enough to grasp the concept of empathy. It is very very rare, despite this, for children to commit murder. I think true 'bad seeds', in fiction and in real life, are very, VERY rare, but they exist, and Cersei is one.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 11:21
|
|
|
Cornwind Evil posted:If the rape you are referring to is Robert, that started when she was an adult, or at least in her late teens. One could argue that it was the immense pressures and troubles that Viserys and Dany were raised under that led to their incest-based birth issues kicking off (Rhaegar, after all, seemed nearly perfect, and even Aegon took time to become the mad king), or in Dany's case, possibly ticking beneath the surface ready to explode. And yes, Tywin's heartlessness and the loss of their mother would have left their mask on Cersei, but Jaime was exposed to the same and he didn't turn out that way. It's been suggested that due to how brains develop, children are innately sociopathic until their minds have grown enough to grasp the concept of empathy. It is very very rare, despite this, for children to commit murder. Cersei does not exist as anything other than the adult she is after Robert dies. Everything we know from before that is her internal monologue, coloured by her experiences. Obviously her killing her friend was pretty lovely tho! jsoh fucked around with this message at 12:28 on May 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 12:04
|
|
|
whowhatwhere posted:I knew my mother was having an affair with that ethereally pretty silver-blonde guy! Is your mom's name... JENOVA?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 12:30
|
|
|
jsoh posted:Cersei does not exist as anything other than the adult she is after Robert dies. Everything we know from before that is her internal monologue, coloured by her experiences. Obviously her killing her friend was pretty lovely tho! I think it's both. We're suppose to feel sympathy for the dreams she had vs the reality of being married to Robert as a mirror to Sansa's own journey. But through the story of murdering her friend when she's a teenager (still full of these hopes and dreams not yet crushed) we can see that the brutality precedes that. But really I think the defining moment we learn she has been awful for a very long time is Oberyn telling the story of his visit to Casterly Rock. Here is a Cersei who has not lived years under the rule of an emotionally disconnected father. Yes she's grieving for her mother, but so is Jaime, and he doesn't feel the need to torture his infant brother.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 12:47
|
|
|
Capital letters are an affront to the bad thread and I feel guilty using them.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 16:58
|
|
|
jsoh posted:well, she was raised by that father who had no empathy, and lost her mother very young, and also had that same incest filled ancestry (tywin and joanna were first cousin) as well as being raped over and over and over and over and over for 16 years. First-cousin marriage being taboo is a pretty recent thing and it's still legal almost everywhere outside China and about half the states in the USA [/GeorgeMichaelBluth]
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 17:44
|
|
|
It takes repeated generations of inbreeding to have a real effect - one generation won't do anything - but I wouldn't be surprised if the high houses had managed to set up quite a narrow gene pool between them by this point.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 18:08
|
|
|
The Little Kielbasa posted:First-cousin marriage being taboo is a pretty recent thing and it's still legal almost everywhere outside China and about half the states in the USA [/GeorgeMichaelBluth] We had the signatures to put the bill through but...
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
Cornwind Evil posted:If the rape you are referring to is Robert, that started when she was an adult, or at least in her late teens. One could argue that it was the immense pressures and troubles that Viserys and Dany were raised under that led to their incest-based birth issues kicking off (Rhaegar, after all, seemed nearly perfect, and even Aegon took time to become the mad king), or in Dany's case, possibly ticking beneath the surface ready to explode. And yes, Tywin's heartlessness and the loss of their mother would have left their mask on Cersei, but Jaime was exposed to the same and he didn't turn out that way. It's been suggested that due to how brains develop, children are innately sociopathic until their minds have grown enough to grasp the concept of empathy. It is very very rare, despite this, for children to commit murder. I like how you're all "Life experiences and/or genetics explain why all these characters are awful people, but Cersei is just evil for no reason."
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
Tender Bender posted:I like how you're all "Life experiences and/or genetics explain why all these characters are awful people, but Cersei is just evil for no reason." She was raised by Tywin, one of the evillest assholes in the Seven Kingdoms. Jaime got screwed up, Tyrion got screwed up and Cersei got screwed up, all in different ways, because their father is an evil rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 19:19
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:It takes repeated generations of inbreeding to have a real effect - one generation won't do anything - but I wouldn't be surprised if the high houses had managed to set up quite a narrow gene pool between them by this point. Well, I don't know about that so much. Consider that there's only been a Seven Kingdoms for three hundred years by this point. Before that, the Houses probably married within their zones, with the occasional marriage to someone from another kingdom. And even then, it probably depends on the family. The Martells don't seem to give a poo poo about who they gently caress, while the Lannisters seem prissy enough to only marry within their strata. Things may have actually gotten better in that regard since the Targaryens set up shop, frankly.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
kcroy posted:for serious? Bran (as Summer) finds some of the bodies and eats some meat (I can't remember if it was some of the deserters or just Craster's meat). When Bran asks Coldhands why he killed them, Coldhands says something like "They were foes".
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 19:50
|
|
|
IIRC (but I've been wrong almost every single time with trying to remember something from this series), Coldhands also offers them meat one night by the campfire, and since they're starving they don't ask questions but it's heavily implied the characters know it's human meat
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 20:23
|
|
|
Yeah Cersei's a lovely person, no doubt, but I did start feeling kind of bad for her in a "whoa she's actually mentally hosed up pretty bad, no wonder she can't make any non-crazy decisions ever instead of completely terrible ones all the time" sort of way. It doesn't excuse her horrible behavior or anything but it does give her an element of humanity instead of just being a Saturday morning cartoon villain like Ramsay.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 20:56
|
|
|
Jeffrey posted:Capital letters are an affront to the bad thread and I feel guilty using them. It's insanely hosed up
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 20:59
|
|
|
People ITT talking about real life genetics, please stop. GURM has established his own retarded rules of genetics. The fact that it was literally impossible for Robert Baratheon to have a child with light hair was a huge plot point. Real genetics talk can 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
Traxus IV posted:Yeah Cersei's a lovely person, no doubt, but I did start feeling kind of bad for her in a "whoa she's actually mentally hosed up pretty bad, no wonder she can't make any non-crazy decisions ever instead of completely terrible ones all the time" sort of way. It doesn't excuse her horrible behavior or anything but it does give her an element of humanity instead of just being a Saturday morning cartoon villain like Ramsay. I felt bad for her in the moment when she was being mentally tortured by the nuns, or doing her walk o shame, but when I stop to think about how she's done literal Hitler-like things such as delivering people to an evil scientist to be vivisected, tortured and experimented on, and has not felt a moment's guilt or empathy for her victims' suffering, then I think she's beyond any type of sympathy or consideration of her background/upbringing like I would with some other characters.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
mkay0 posted:People ITT talking about real life genetics, please stop. GURM has established his own retarded rules of genetics. The fact that it was literally impossible for Robert Baratheon to have a child with light hair was a huge plot point. Real genetics talk can I like to think that bastards really are biologically predisposed to be shitheels in Gurm's world.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 22:40
|
|
|
GURM really does hold some weird biologically essentialist beliefs, like that Ramsay is a complete monster at least partially because he's the product of a rape.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
savinhill posted:I felt bad for her in the moment when she was being mentally tortured by the nuns, or doing her walk o shame, but when I stop to think about how she's done literal Hitler-like things such as delivering people to an evil scientist to be vivisected, tortured and experimented on, and has not felt a moment's guilt or empathy for her victims' suffering, then I think she's beyond any type of sympathy or consideration of her background/upbringing like I would with some other characters. Like, yeah Cersei can't be the next Theon or Jaime, but you still feel something for her. A part of you can relate to her character. Hopefully, you can't relate to Ramsay the same way.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 22:47
|
|
|
Mike N Eich posted:GURM really does hold some weird biologically essentialist beliefs, like that Ramsay is a complete monster at least partially because he's the product of a rape. It could go either way since knowing you were a product of rape, as well as a bastard could influence your behavior but I say always assume the worst when an absolute fucker is involved.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
I never quite understood how the Hound felt about the Stark sisters. For example, the scene after the battle of Blackwater. He got no romantic bone in him, doesn't he? No self delusions at all - he knows he's (seen as) a monster. So why does he ask Sansa if she'll come with him? (Not to speak of him kissing or not kissing her.) I also never was sure if he protected Sansa from Joffrey out of spite for Joffrey's cruelty (perhaps because it reminds him of his brother?), or because he specifically likes Sansa. And besides for his claims, he seems to care about Arya in some way, besides for the ransom.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
He was drunk as hell and figured she might have been scared enough to want to get out with a guy who would ensure she wasn't raped or killed by Cersei.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2014 00:09
|
|