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I think GRRM, and most definitely the show-runners, tried to make The Hound into a "true enough knight". Like he's got a heart of gold somewhere in there that people like the Kingsgaurd don't. Doesn't really hold up to scrutiny thought seeing as one of his first acts is to kill some civilian kid.
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May 30, 2014 00:12
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Mike N Eich posted:GURM really does hold some weird biologically essentialist beliefs, like that Ramsay is a complete monster at least partially because he's the product of a rape. Ramsay's being what he is has a little more subtlety than that. Roose murdered Ramsay's mother's husband when Ramsay was conceived and was raised his entire life with his heavily traumatized mom and his own malcontent about who he is and his station. GRRM is very clearly a nurture > nature kind of person.
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May 30, 2014 00:17
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Cingulate posted:I never quite understood how the Hound felt about the Stark sisters. For example, the scene after the battle of Blackwater. He got no romantic bone in him, doesn't he? No self delusions at all - he knows he's (seen as) a monster. So why does he ask Sansa if she'll come with him? (Not to speak of him kissing or not kissing her.) He never kissed her. As for the song thing, idk I think he was just drunk.
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May 30, 2014 01:31
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I took it as something changed when Ned died and Sandor kind of stepped in as the protector. Like when he stopped Sansa from pushing Jeoff off the wall after he showed her Neds head. It was more for her own good rather than the kings.
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May 30, 2014 01:48
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TK-42-1 posted:I took it as something changed when Ned died and Sandor kind of stepped in as the protector. Like when he stopped Sansa from pushing Jeoff off the wall after he showed her Neds head. It was more for her own good rather than the kings. The Hound just wants to find a worthy Master to be loyal too. He never will.
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May 30, 2014 02:38
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I figured that Sandor identifies with Sansa being powerlessly abused like he was abused by his brother.
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May 30, 2014 02:42
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Lycus posted:I figured that Sandor identifies with Sansa being powerlessly abused like he was abused by his brother. That actually makes good sense, so it's only incidental that it worked out that way.
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May 30, 2014 02:46
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So, I'm reading through the books again and I noticed something.A Game of Thrones, page 118 posted:"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it." Jon Snow is 14 years old at this point in the series.  I've been pretty convinced by the Lyanna/Rhaegar theory for a long time, and I assumed that Ned promised to raise Jon Snow as his son. Now I wonder if Lyanna made Ned promise specifically not to tell Robert about Jon (and whatever actually led up to his conception). Why else would Ned tell Robert some story about Wylla, Jon's supposed mother, when everyone else who asks (even his wife) just gets told to gently caress off? Maybe Ned didn't want Robert to wonder about it too much.
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May 30, 2014 03:02
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Samila posted:So, I'm reading through the books again and I noticed something.
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May 30, 2014 03:16
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ASoIaF is often more palatable if you imagine Westerosi years are a bit longer and 14 years is like 14*550 days.
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May 30, 2014 03:33
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Oh man the bablet thread, sometimes:quote:"The show is definitely easier to follow and if you don't like the idiosyncratic dialect of English in the books then I can totally understand not wanting to get through them." Ah yes, idiosyncratic, like... American English, with a few dumb stylizations? Roflo, you dumb chucklefucks.
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May 30, 2014 03:58
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As for Sandy being soft on Sansa, I think a good part of it would be that he's just a bit infatuated with her. He's a big, hideously scarred dude who pushes everyone away by being a gruff rear end in a top hat, but I think he's honestly the kind of guy who would have turned out deeply normal, maybe kind of an affable, friendly guy with a pleasant temperment if his brother had never hosed him up. He's really a soft-hearted, lonely guy, and maybe he'd sublimated that for a long, long time by being The Hound instead of Sandor Clegane, but after a certain point, something in there broke open and he latched onto Sansa as someone he felt common ground with, someone who'd been abused and tossed aside with casual brutality. That's how I always read him in that, anyway. As for him palling around with Arya, I wonder how much of that was another bit of seeing himself in this other Stark sister, but instead of the mewling inner Sandor, it was the outer burn-victim Sandor who was headed down a path of being consumed by revenge and hate until it destroyed his soul. I feel like his attempts to "save" each girl in turn was really his own recovery from the years-long blackout where he stopped being a person and was just the Baratheon dog-soldier. Poor guy, too, he fucks off from home and heads for the Stormlands just to get the gently caress away from his brother, only for his new lord to marry his old lord's daughter and there's Greg popping up once in a while anyway.
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May 30, 2014 04:02
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I think GRRM, and most definitely the show-runners, tried to make The Hound into a "true enough knight". Like he's got a heart of gold somewhere in there that people like the Kingsgaurd don't. Doesn't really hold up to scrutiny thought seeing as one of his first acts is to kill some civilian kid. Just doing his job man!
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May 30, 2014 04:13
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Poor guy, too, he fucks off from home and heads for the Stormlands just to get the gently caress away from his brother, only for his new lord to marry his old lord's daughter and there's Greg popping up once in a while anyway. Heh that is a good point. man that must suck rear end.
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May 30, 2014 04:16
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Cingulate posted:ASoIaF is often more palatable if you imagine Westerosi years are a bit longer and 14 years is like 14*550 days. I prefer to think that one year in Westeros is when all the seasons have passed once so it starts over. That means that Jon Snow is actually at least 60 in Earth years.
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May 30, 2014 07:30
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i think you guys are looking way to much into this whole sandor sansa relationship. i mean, it's rather obvious sandor sansa them game of thrones goons gotsa stick together
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May 30, 2014 07:53
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Tender Bender posted:I like how you're all "Life experiences and/or genetics explain why all these characters are awful people, but Cersei is just evil for no reason." Even the closest equivalent to her, Ramsay Snow, was only said to be 'wild and unruly' until he was about 12 years old, and then Roose sent Reek to live with them, a purposefully 'cruel jest' that backfired when Reek ended up taking whatever bad seeds Ramsay had and made them go wild and out of control, whether by his own influence or allowing Ramsay to do whatever he wanted. Gregor also started young, but as said, genetic freak. Cersei is perfectly normal, was raised in wealth and comfort, and yes, while her father was Tywin, just how much Tywin was lacking as a father would have in normal situations prompted acting out. Cersei, instead, at the age of 10, murdered her best friend, either out of fear of the prophecy's they'd heard, jealousy that her friend liked Jaime, or for all we know, an attempt to ensure the prophecy happened as it predicted her friend's death. Deliberate murder at the age of 10, lacking any hardships like Ramsay or genetic factors like Gregor or both in the case of Dany. So to me, yes, Cersei is evil because she was born bad. Westeros' toxic misogyny did the rest.
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May 30, 2014 09:52
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Cornwind Evil posted:Cersei, instead, at the age of 10, murdered her best friend, either out of fear of the prophecy's they'd heard, jealousy that her friend liked Jaime, or for all we know, an attempt to ensure the prophecy happened as it predicted her friend's death. Maybe it happened out of impulse or fear and afterward as a way of dealing with it she went "Welp, this is who I am".
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May 30, 2014 10:25
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humansuperior posted:Maybe it happened out of impulse or fear and afterward as a way of dealing with it she went "Welp, this is who I am". Possible, but considering Cersei also tortured Tyrion (that story that just came up on the last show episode, where she might have literally castrated him as a baby had Jaime not stopped her) when she was 9 and Tyrion was literally a baby, I doubt it. You can put a lot on childish stupidity and cruelty-through-inability-to-understand, but I'd like to think that virtually all nine year olds would stop harming an infant if they started screaming. Cersei was stepping over those lines even then.
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May 30, 2014 12:16
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wukkar posted:You did it! You found the thing which no one on the internet had ever found before! Well thanks, that's a relief. I have to admit, I was a little worried about my post because I know this thread is only for discussing things about the books that have never been mentioned before, here or anywhere else on the internet.
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May 30, 2014 12:35
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Tyrion is an interesting example for the nature/nurture debate. He was treated upon from the moment he was born. This has made him a bitter cynic, but far from evil. GRRM is "realistic" insofar that both nature and nurture show their influences, but there is also a large unexplained component.
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May 30, 2014 20:04
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Wanting to murder your siblings, one of whom freed you from certain death that you want to kill because he was coerced into lying about your first wife by the most powerful man in the kingdom is pretty evil. As is helping the Targaryen across the sea because she's theoretically going to go to Westeros to murder said siblings and everything they hold dear is also a pretty evil thing. Sure, Cersei deserves it but Tyrion is far from a good person in ADWD.
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May 30, 2014 20:59
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On the other hand, Tyrion has plenty of valid reasons to want his entire family dead.
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May 30, 2014 21:01
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Desiring is a long way from doing. Tyrion will cool down eventually. I mean poo poo, I think everyone's wanted to genocide their entire family at one point or another. And/or sleep with them. Whichever.
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May 30, 2014 21:03
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I don't think Tyrion would actually kill Jaime if he saw him again, he was very emotional when he said that.
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May 30, 2014 21:13
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Yes. Also consider his exaggeration about Cersei's promiscuity. The point being that even after the moment where Tyrion "snaps", he's still no Ramsay - far from it. He murders his father and his lover, but he doesn't derive pleasure from it, like Ramsay, Cersei or the Mountain, or the various non-POV professional tortures. While he does not use violence sparingly, GRRM is very particular about sadism. Since almost every man (and many a woman) in his world is a murderer, sadism is one of the ways he still uses to demarcate dark grey (arguably even a bit of black) from the lighter shades. And Tyrion is a murderer, but no sadist.
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May 30, 2014 21:18
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I always thought of Cersei murdering her childhood friend as an act of fear rather than malice or jealousy. The friend was the only other one who heard the prophecy, maybe she thought if nobody else knew about it then it couldn't come true. She already hated Tyrion as a kid if she hurt him when he was just a dang baby, mabe even then the idea of maybe being killed by him someday was scary enough that she took steps to prevent that outcome. She couldn't kill Tyrion directly, he was still a Lannister, but her friend was just some minor noble or whatever, right? That would make her not a real person in Cersei's eyes so down the well she went. Either way, we've seen that Cersei is clearly incapable of rational or logical thought a lot of the time so her kill-happy behavior even as a kid isn't super surprising.
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May 30, 2014 22:00
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FrozenVent posted:On the other hand, Tyrion has plenty of valid reasons to want his entire family dead. He also killed that bard that was too close to Shae, and did a bunch of other shady things that the show handwaved away. It's going to be really weird if show Tyrion ends up killing Shae.
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May 31, 2014 01:07
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Elman posted:He also killed that bard that was too close to Shae, and did a bunch of other shady things that the show handwaved away. It's going to be really weird if show Tyrion ends up killing Shae. Considering his outburst in the trial episode, it would seem very much in character for Tyrion to still strangle Shae. The main issue's going to be all the regrettable THAT BITCH DESERVED IT reactions.
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May 31, 2014 06:02
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Elman posted:He also killed that bard that was too close to Shae, and did a bunch of other shady things that the show handwaved away. It's going to be really weird if show Tyrion ends up killing Shae. He didn't have the bard killed out of jealousy. The bard was trying to blackmail him with knowledge of his whore.
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May 31, 2014 07:35
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Cornwind Evil posted:The main issue's going to be all the regrettable THAT BITCH DESERVED IT reactions. but she totally deserved it? he better loving strangle her, and it better be using the necklace of the hand motherfucker.
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May 31, 2014 11:54
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Cornwind Evil posted:Considering his outburst in the trial episode, it would seem very much in character for Tyrion to still strangle Shae. The main issue's going to be all the regrettable THAT BITCH DESERVED IT reactions. That's the thing, the outburst didn't seem in character to me either 
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May 31, 2014 11:59
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I want the strangling scene to happen because then we could get some other reactions towards Tyrion rather than the same old "omg he's so cool and witty". 
Franz von Dada fucked around with this message at 12:08 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 12:01
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Cornwind Evil posted:Considering his outburst in the trial episode, it would seem very much in character for Tyrion to still strangle Shae. The main issue's going to be all the regrettable THAT BITCH DESERVED IT reactions. Show thread is going to set off the misogyny detectors from here to the north pole.
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May 31, 2014 12:12
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kcroy posted:but she totally deserved it?
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May 31, 2014 12:16
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Trast posted:Show thread is going to set off the misogyny detectors from here to the north pole. This thread, too, looks like
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May 31, 2014 12:26
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Lycus posted:Of course, it's a pin now. I guess he could stab her a lot of times with the pin. It is? That seems like an unnecessary change, and kind of a dumb one considering the use of the chain as a murder weapon. Is there any kind of rationale for making it a pin?
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May 31, 2014 14:37
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Traxus IV posted:It is? That seems like an unnecessary change, and kind of a dumb one considering the use of the chain as a murder weapon. Is there any kind of rationale for making it a pin? He gave her another necklace so it's a moot point. The main reason it was a pin is because in S1 they made it a pin because Sean Bean wearing a necklace didn't look cool.
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May 31, 2014 14:43
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Tyrion's reaction seemed completely in character to me. The woman he loved--that he thought loved him--betrayed him completely. It was Tysha all over again. But it was bullshit for Tyrion to treat her the way that he did. Was she supposed to be happy being his hug box and gently caress hole for the rest of her life? Was she supposed to be happy that he dumped her like a bag of duet after he was done using her? IMO the Shae/Tyrion situation in the books presents Tyrion as much more of the victim, where the show shows them both as victims of their circumstances. Mostly because BookShae was way less like able. To me she seemed to know she had Tyrion wrapped around her finger, and liked toying with him (the bard, hands of gold, etc). In the show, Shae seems to genuinely care for Tyrion, but (as in the books) she's completely oblivious to the danger the other Lannisters pose to her, she sees him pushing her away--even discarding her. I also like that she didn't blame Sansa for their predicament. I like the shows presentation better for that reason.
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May 31, 2014 14:46
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Desiring is a long way from doing. Tyrion will cool down eventually. Just like Anya, he won't stop wanting to kill them. But other people will get around to it first.
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May 31, 2014 14:50
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