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Colonel Whitey posted:Is it possible for Cersei to have a Jamie-esque redemption arc at this point? She seems so irredeemably horrible but Martin may revel in the challenge of trying to redeem her. He's at least planted the seeds of empathy by highlighting how she's been treated her entire life. I'm expecting to see something like this - not a full redemption arc, but at least enough to make the readers feel sad for her when she dies. It kind of reminds me of Shakespeare's character arc with Richard II, actually, where he's a total loving dipshit through most of the play, but then we he gets overthrown he starts to realize (too late) how stupidly he acted. It shows that a character can be a martyr and also an easily hate-worthy dickhead in the same story.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:07
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Everyone always forgets about motherfuckin' Boots 
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Jul 8, 2014 19:18
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Majorian posted:I'm expecting to see something like this - not a full redemption arc, but at least enough to make the readers feel sad for her when she dies. It kind of reminds me of Shakespeare's character arc with Richard II, actually, where he's a total loving dipshit through most of the play, but then we he gets overthrown he starts to realize (too late) how stupidly he acted. It shows that a character can be a martyr and also an easily hate-worthy dickhead in the same story. It's very much in GRRM's style to do that, as he appears to try to avoid letting the reader take pleasure in a character's death, comeuppance or not.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:18
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I didn't exactly feel bad for Lysa Arryn, but that might be it for the somewhat prominent characters
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Jul 8, 2014 19:20
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24-7 Urkel Cosplay posted:It's very much in GRRM's style to do that, as he appears to try to avoid letting the reader take pleasure in a character's death, comeuppance or not. Yeah, this is one theme that I really like in the series. Lots of people in this story are awful and deserve to die, but their deaths never really bring those who deserve vengeance any peace. I hope that's something Arya realizes before it's too late.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:30
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Everyone always forgets about motherfuckin' Boots
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Jul 8, 2014 19:39
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Majorian posted:Yeah, this is one theme that I really like in the series. Lots of people in this story are awful and deserve to die, but their deaths never really bring those who deserve vengeance any peace. I hope that's something Arya realizes before it's too late. Has anyone managed to figure out a likely endgame for Arya yet? The Stark boys are pretty much nailed down (Bran is a tree and Jon's a zombie Jesus King in the North) and Sansa's maybe I guess going to be a political strategist or something but I've got no idea where Arya's going to go besides "with a knife in hand." All this Cersei talk has me wondering if Arya will just show up on the eve of her trial and stab her dead before we can get to Cleganebowl, just so GRRM can be all subversive n' poo poo, but I've got no idea how she would get there or what she'd do after.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:47
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HaitianDivorce posted:Has anyone managed to figure out a likely endgame for Arya yet? The Stark boys are pretty much nailed down (Bran is a tree and Jon's a zombie Jesus King in the North) and Sansa's maybe I guess going to be a political strategist or something but I've got no idea where Arya's going to go besides "with a knife in hand." I would really like it if she and Brienne teamed up, went on adventures, and Arya found ways to deal with the horrible poo poo she's seen and done. Not holding my breath, though.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:01
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Arya gets hired to kill Tyrion but instead they fall in love and run away together to the east beyond the shadows...
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Jul 8, 2014 20:09
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Arya is selected to become a Callidus by the Officio Assassinatorum, we've been over this.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:11
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I figure Arya's gonna get some more Faceless training, go rogue, than go after someone important. It's Littlefinger and Sansa I have no clue about. With Dany, maybe-fake-Aegon, Euron, Stannis and the Others all eventually gonna throwdown, I can't imagine where those two fit in.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:15
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There's only one worthy opponent for Zombie Gregor: Zombie Oberyn. "You killed her children and then raped her with your hands still covered with their brains brraiiinss brrraaaaiiiiinnsss sorry what was I saying?"
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Jul 8, 2014 20:15
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maybe grrm will subvert the trope and arya will pursue a managerial role at the house of black and white, focusing on customer relations and faceless man dispatch, and won't actually continue killing people personally
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Jul 8, 2014 20:18
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Lycus posted:I figure Arya's gonna get some more Faceless training, go rogue, than go after someone important. It's Littlefinger and Sansa I have no clue about. With Dany, maybe-fake-Aegon, Euron, Stannis and the Others all eventually gonna throwdown, I can't imagine where those two fit in. Perhaps those two intersect in some way, as LF is just about the only guy who can go toe-to-toe with Varys' scheming.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:21
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Jeffrey posted:maybe grrm will subvert the trope and arya will pursue a managerial role at the house of black and white, focusing on customer relations and faceless man dispatch, and won't actually continue killing people personally Like that lady in ghostbusters.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:26
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It doesn't help that currently Littlefinger's big scheme seems really small-time next to everything else that's going on. I mean, if he was trying to marry Sansa off to maybe-fake-Aegon or Euron or something, that would be one thing, but nobody cares about Harry the stupid Heir. That's not to say a much more interesting scheme isn't coming in Book 6.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:26
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Lycus posted:It doesn't help that currently Littlefinger's big scheme seems really small-time next to everything else that's going on. I mean, if he was trying to marry Sansa off to maybe-fake-Aegon or Euron or something, that would be one thing, but nobody cares about Harry the stupid Heir. That's not to say a much more interesting scheme isn't coming in Book 6. Heirry's gonna bite it. In the Hedge Knight, Dunk and Egg go to a tourney held at Ashford to celebrate Lord Ashford's daughter's 13th name-day. Lady Ashford has 5 champions fighting on her behalf and anyone who defeats a champion ends up replacing their opponent as a champion for Lady Ashford. In the end, the 5 champions who end up defending Lady Ashford are: Lyonel Baratheon Leo Tyrell Tybolt Lannister Humfrey Hardyng Prince Valarr Targaryen When you look at the names of the champions' families and the fact they fight for a 13 year old maid, especially with the family Hardyng, we find out that they correspond strongly with Sansa's suitors in A Song of Ice and Fire. Sansa's first betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon Sansa's then planned to be wed to Willas Tyrell Sansa's married to Tyrion Lannister Sansa's now being betrothed to Harry Hardyng
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Jul 8, 2014 20:31
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I dunno what Littlefinger's planned endgame is, but I figure it culminates with him powerless and disgraced, fleeing alone through the Riverlands. After that, there's only one woman who can give him the fate he deserves.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:36
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Tender Bender posted:I dunno what Littlefinger's planned endgame is, but I figure it culminates with him powerless and disgraced, fleeing alone through the Riverlands. After that, there's only one woman who can give him the fate he deserves.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:39
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Skrill.exe posted:Heirry's gonna bite it.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:47
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Jeffrey posted:drat, so she's gonna marry aegon.....or jon. quote:Henry Tudor, a distant relative of the Lancastrian kings who had inherited their claim, defeated Richard at Bosworth in 1485. He was crowned Henry VII, and married Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV, to unite and reconcile the two houses. Seems that way.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:48
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Sansa marrying Aegon means Littlefinger and Varys end up on the same side again and that's an entertaining thought.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:49
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24-7 Urkel Cosplay posted:Perhaps those two intersect in some way, as LF is just about the only guy who can go toe-to-toe with Varys' scheming. He wishes. Varys has been around much, much longer than Littlefinger; I fully expect the Spider to win the duel of the intriguers.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:06
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Lycus posted:It doesn't help that currently Littlefinger's big scheme seems really small-time next to everything else that's going on. I mean, if he was trying to marry Sansa off to maybe-fake-Aegon or Euron or something, that would be one thing, but nobody cares about Harry the stupid Heir. That's not to say a much more interesting scheme isn't coming in Book 6. Small time? He's planning on revealing Sansa at her wedding and that would give him de facto control of 3 kingdoms, the North, the Vale and the Riverlands, as he's Lord Paramount of the Trident. Of course the North and the Riverlands are ravaged by war, and he doesn't seem to be following what's going on with Stannis in the North, but still, that's hardly small time.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:31
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Lycus posted:It doesn't help that currently Littlefinger's big scheme seems really small-time next to everything else that's going on. I mean, if he was trying to marry Sansa off to maybe-fake-Aegon or Euron or something, that would be one thing, but nobody cares about Harry the stupid Heir. That's not to say a much more interesting scheme isn't coming in Book 6. He did come out with that line about 'if you thought the war of the five kings was bad, just wait until the war of the three queens'. I think he's got a long game planned and is doing more than just making the most of situations as they arise.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:47
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Littlefinger has just been flailing around like the weird psychopath he is, then pretending he's been working some long con so that he can look smart for Sansa -_-
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Jul 8, 2014 21:52
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PupsOfWar posted:Littlefinger has just been flailing around like the weird psychopath he is, then pretending he's been working some long con so that he can look smart for Sansa -_- I think he is working for a long con, but I also think the "weird psychopath" designation is accurate. That's the number one reason why I think Varys is going to outsmart him: pathos. LF has it in spades, Varys doesn't (which is impressive for a guy who got his junk cut off).
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Jul 8, 2014 21:59
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I just think it's telling that all of the people he dicks over *the most* have some sort of connection to his baggage. No way he's as in control of things as he claims
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Jul 8, 2014 22:30
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I don't even buy that he cared about Cat at all from the start of the series really. He had to know her and her whole family were walking into a bees nest with his whole "Lets kill John Arryn" poo poo. Maybe he thought he could get ahold of her in the resulting chaos but the chances on that, and her coming around after the whole ordeal, is incredibly unrealistic and killing off John Arryn while telling Lysa you want her vag is an overblown and dumb way of trying. I think his motive for getting that ball rolling is still an open question. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 22:38
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Skrill.exe posted:Heirry's gonna bite it. You just blew my mind.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:01
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Mike N Eich posted:Small time? He's planning on revealing Sansa at her wedding and that would give him de facto control of 3 kingdoms, the North, the Vale and the Riverlands, as he's Lord Paramount of the Trident. Of course the North and the Riverlands are ravaged by war, and he doesn't seem to be following what's going on with Stannis in the North, but still, that's hardly small time. But yeah, when there's dragons and dark magic and zombies and fire gods and angry ghosts about, a dude who bribes people and occasionally assassinates a kid seems comparatively small time. Lycus fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 23:05
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Kuiperdolin posted:You just blew my mind. I totally c/p'd it from some lovely reddit but I'm sure I would have come to it eventually.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:27
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How does the succession work, in terms of Dany's claim to the throne vs Aegon's (if he is the real Aegon)? I know Aegon's claim would come first by the standards of any other house - the children of a slain heir taking precedence over the siblings - but I seem to recall the Targaryens have some other kind of rule that I don't understand PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 23:31
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PupsOfWar posted:How does the succession work, in terms of Dany's claim to the throne vs Aegon's (if he is the real Aegon)? Dany has a dragon, everyone that ask about the terms of succession gets roasted.
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Jul 8, 2014 23:59
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Aegon (if true) still comes first. The Targaryen system is not really fixed and seems to have some ad hoc wriggling (like many medieval inheritances) but mostly it excludes/push farther down the line women. There has however been several precedents of calling a council of the great lords to decide thorny cases, and such a council could concievably overrule a previous one.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:20
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PupsOfWar posted:How does the succession work, in terms of Dany's claim to the throne vs Aegon's (if he is the real Aegon)? According to the Wiki, since the Dance of Dragons, it's strict agnatic primogeniture, ie: Aegon would have the better claim.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:22
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Alhazred posted:Dany has a dragon, everyone that ask about the terms of succession gets roasted. Though jokes aside, would Dany really be that vindictive toward family members that did her no harm?
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Jul 9, 2014 00:48
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People are assuming Dany will be a lot more grim and vindictive when she finally emerges from the mess in Meereen. They are probably right. If nothing else, I could see her dismissing Aegon's claim to the blood royal - likely, if the dragons don't take to him, which is how Gurm would probably communicate his fakeness - and frying him for the presumption impersonating a Targ. Or I could see him trying to claim one or more of the dragons (after all, if he has the best claim to the Throne, he would likely feel entitled to them), then getting Quentyn'd. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 01:16
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Lycus posted:Though jokes aside, would Dany really be that vindictive toward family members that did her no harm? Dany now or Dany further down her Aerys arc?
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Jul 9, 2014 01:16
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It depends on how they interact. If Aegon's like "Hey Aunt Dany, I technically have more of a right, so let's form a new Targ dynasty with you as my right hand," it might go over well. If he goes full Stannis and tells her to bend the knee or he'll break it, he's gonna get eaten by a dragon.
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Jul 9, 2014 01:25
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