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I didn't quite see what I'm looking for described in this thread, but I apologize if I've missed something. I've always thought alternate history is pretty cool in general, but most of it doesn't quite appeal to me. Is there much out there that's less of an alternate history genre fiction novel and more of a data-driven speculative history textbook? I'd love to read something written with plausibility and probability in mind, even if it's a little dry.
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# ? Oct 2, 2014 17:17 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:34 |
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Meldonox posted:I didn't quite see what I'm looking for described in this thread, but I apologize if I've missed something. I've always thought alternate history is pretty cool in general, but most of it doesn't quite appeal to me. Is there much out there that's less of an alternate history genre fiction novel and more of a data-driven speculative history textbook? I'd love to read something written with plausibility and probability in mind, even if it's a little dry. Robert Cowley's edited a couple of books that might be more what you're looking for. What If? is primarily focused on military history, but the second volume is a little more expansive. He also has an American-centric book, but I haven't read it. They might not be exactly what you're looking for (I think they're mostly just speculation with a little bit of data to back it up, but I haven't read them in a while), but they're not genre fiction either. I would say they're probably still more pop-alternative history, but it's more analytic than Turtledove.
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# ? Oct 2, 2014 18:14 |
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I was gonna suggest Cowley's books myself! Those might be just the ticket.
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# ? Oct 2, 2014 19:49 |
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Metal Loaf posted:I was keen on Timeline-191 when I was in school, but by the time I'd read them through to the end I realised that a) they weren't really very well-written and b) they were increasingly coming across as though Turtledove had gone through a WWII history book and done a Ctrl+F and Replace to reset the Eastern front in North America. I've been partial to That Wacky Redhead. Ron Roenicke posted:Robert Cowley's edited a couple of books that might be more what you're looking for. What If? is primarily focused on military history, but the second volume is a little more expansive. He also has an American-centric book, but I haven't read it. They might not be exactly what you're looking for (I think they're mostly just speculation with a little bit of data to back it up, but I haven't read them in a while), but they're not genre fiction either. I would say they're probably still more pop-alternative history, but it's more analytic than Turtledove. I think I got that first book from a charity shop at some point. I'll have to give it a reread.
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# ? Oct 7, 2014 21:09 |
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Is there any Vietnam-era alternate history out there? Stuff like "What if Kennedy wasn't assassinated", "What if America never went in", "What if it wasn't run by a bunch of idiots". All that. It's one of my favorite eras to read actual history books about.
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# ? Oct 7, 2014 22:29 |
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Meldonox posted:I didn't quite see what I'm looking for described in this thread, but I apologize if I've missed something. I've always thought alternate history is pretty cool in general, but most of it doesn't quite appeal to me. Is there much out there that's less of an alternate history genre fiction novel and more of a data-driven speculative history textbook? I'd love to read something written with plausibility and probability in mind, even if it's a little dry. Others have suggested a few non-fiction works that speculate on possible alternative histories, I'd like to suggest a fictional alternative history written as an actual history textbook (the author, Robert Sobel was himself a professor of history and wrote a lot of non-fiction history). For Want of a Nail is a history textbook from a universe in which the British won the American Revolutionary War. The whole thing reads like an actual high-level overview of the political history of the United States of Mexico and the Confederation of North America, complete with full and detailed citations and loads of tables detailing things like election results and GDP. If not for the cover, it could as well be a real non-fiction work from another universe. It is dry as gently caress, but that hasn't stopped me reading it multiple times, something I very rarely do with even my favourite books. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Oct 9, 2014 |
# ? Oct 9, 2014 02:29 |
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Reveilled posted:Others have suggested a few non-fiction works that speculate on possible alternative histories, I'd like to suggest a fictional alternative history written as an actual history textbook (the author, Robert Sobel was himself a professor of history and wrote a lot of non-fiction history). For Want of a Nail is a history textbook from a universe in which the British won the American Revolutionary War. The whole thing reads like an actual high-level overview of the political history of the United States of Mexico and the Confederation of North America, complete with full and detailed citations and loads of tables detailing things like election results and GDP. If not for the cover, it could as well be a real non-fiction work from another universe. It is dry as gently caress, but that hasn't stopped me reading it multiple times, something I very rarely do with even my favourite books. This especially is pretty dead on what I was hoping to find. You guys have made some great suggestions and I look forward to trying them out, so thanks!
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# ? Oct 9, 2014 02:50 |
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Metal Loaf posted:
These two might be the single worst althistory books ever written, as they both forget one very important thing about the early ironclad ships, the fact they could cross open ocean any any point in their history.
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 02:03 |
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Conroy wrote another book called 1901. I've not read it but my brother has. It's about Imperial Germany invading the continental United States in 1901; I believe this was an actual war plan developed by the German military, though the possibility of it ever being out into practice, as far as I'm aware, was never more than remote. Some features I remember include octogenarian James Longstreet coming out of retirement to command the defence, McKinley suffers a convenient heart attack and dies so Internet Favourite(tm) Theodore Roosevelt can lead the war effort, and when the Germans lose and the Kaiser is deposed, the successor government decides they'll blame the Jews.
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 11:21 |
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sbaldrick posted:These two might be the single worst althistory books ever written, as they both forget one very important thing about the early ironclad ships, the fact they could cross open ocean any any point in their history. Interesting, I wonder if the makers of Civilization 4 were inspired by those books - ironclads can't cross open ocean in that game either, which is weird because for several tech levels before them every other ship can.
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:45 |
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I don't really think it makes any sense to label something "the worst alt history book ever" because of missing a technical detail when there are plenty of alt history books out there that are straight up Nazi apologia and racist wish fulfillment. Maybe it's just me but I think that kind of poo poo is a bit worse than making a mistake about boat technology.
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 15:53 |
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Did someone say "Nazi apologia" http://warreview.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-kaiserfront-01-die-schwarze.html quote:... In 1917, the Kaiser abdicates in favor of his son, who creates "Kastrup", which is basically the SS only for Imperial Germany. Over the coming two years, they shoot socialist workers left and right, beat down strikes, and generally make sure that any attempt of a socialist/democratic revolution in Germany drowns in its own blood. Because that works so well, Germany starts a spring offensive in 1919 (Home Fleet has lost 90% of its strength in a last grand battle with the High Seas Fleet, which it annihilated), breaking through the lines with new armored fomations. By April, France has surrendered, monarchy is restored, with Louis I sweaing fealty to the Kaiser. In July, Italy surrenders. Austro-Hungary is merged with the Reich in November.
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 17:12 |
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I am surprised that poo poo is legal in Germany given their censorship laws but maybe it is just winking and nodding enough to slip through
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 17:19 |
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Nckdictator posted:Did someone say "Nazi apologia" Those book covers remind me of some weird Russian(?) series that have Hitler, in a striped Spetznaz undershirt, doing War Action stuff - I think on one he's using an RPG-7 against Tiger tanks somewhere. Of course I can't find the pictures right now to post... <sigh>
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# ? Oct 21, 2014 17:27 |
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The whole thing is a giant parody. The author is called Heinrich von Stahl for Christ's sake.
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 06:15 |
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I find it hilarious that Lappeenranta in Finland is on that map along with the capital cities of Europe. Lappeenranta is basically a little city twenty miles from the eastern border. It has no other claim to significance. I can only imagine the author has some kind of epic battle between the Nordic League-German and Soviet forces take place there.
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 10:04 |
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ArchangeI posted:The whole thing is a giant parody. The author is called Heinrich von Stahl for Christ's sake. Does't that just mean steel? Why would that necessarily mean it's parody? Granted I didn't look too far into the books but I can certainly imagine some fantasist nut calling himself "Heinrich of Steel" and meaning it.
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 15:23 |
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Here's some Google Translate summaries of them.quote:The invasion of Britain enters its decisive stage. The armies of the Nordic federal race against London, but the city proves to be a breakwater. Only the landed in northern England 7th Scandinavian Kastrup Panzer Army are after heavy fighting with the hope of an early breakthrough. The British government is to be installed for safety to Belfast - a project which is not hidden the Kastrup. It acts immediately and sends one of their best commanders in use. The Hunt for Churchill begins ... quote:Even as the battle for England heading its height, the German army on the Eastern Front takes the offensive in the spring of 1950. Three wedges attack launched against Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. But at Stalingrad the German troops take on a numerically far superior and by the Americans very well equipped Red Army. I'm sure it's a translation error but I like to imagine there's a "Field Marshal von Thanks" quote:The Battle of Britain seems to have decided in favor of the Nordic Federation. The Allies are trying to evacuate their troops in a gigantic operation from Liverpool. Marshal Dutraux sees his battle-weary armored spearheads unable to prevent the evacuation action and will give the stop command. But Kaiser Friedrich puts everything on one card: It assigns the unchecked rise in Liverpool, to cut hundreds of thousands of Britons and Americans, and so to end the war in the west quickly. Here Friedrich risk that its underserved armored formations could be wiped out ... quote:In November 1952, the cold war between the USA and the Nordic Covenant is nothing but a giant deception to go unnoticed provide resources to combat the soon arriving on Earth Vegalier of the public to continue. In reality, both the United States and in Siberia apparently still fighting Soviets are vassals of the German Emperor.
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 21:52 |
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So, wait, while the Allies are attempting to evacuate Britain, the Germans are landing goddamn stormtroopers and space submarines on Callisto?
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 21:58 |
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Tomn posted:So, wait, while the Allies are attempting to evacuate Britain, the Germans are landing goddamn stormtroopers and space submarines on Callisto? Well, Nazi moonbases have been done to death. Maybe there'll be some giant WaffenAmt-marked monoliths appearing?
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# ? Oct 22, 2014 23:08 |
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Earwicker posted:Does't that just mean steel? Why would that necessarily mean it's parody? Granted I didn't look too far into the books but I can certainly imagine some fantasist nut calling himself "Heinrich of Steel" and meaning it. Heinrich von Stahl is the kind of name people with two highschool semesters of German give the main villain in their lovely novel. I refuse to believe that a German native would call himself that unironically while still being able to form a coherent sentence, much less write a novel (no matter how insane).
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# ? Oct 23, 2014 06:14 |
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ArchangeI posted:Heinrich von Stahl is the kind of name people with two highschool semesters of German give the main villain in their lovely novel. I refuse to believe that a German native would call himself that unironically while still being able to form a coherent sentence, much less write a novel (no matter how insane). I think your overestimating the intelligence of the people who write this sort of poo poo.
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# ? Oct 23, 2014 13:27 |
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ArchangeI posted:I refuse to believe that a German native would call himself that unironically while still being able to form a coherent sentence, much less write a novel (no matter how insane). I took it to be sort of the equivalent of an American author calling himself Hank Steel and writing a bunch of extremely over the top gung ho USA! USA! novels, which as an American I would not immediately assume was a parody at all but rather a sincere foreign policy proposal. While I undersand the modern German may want to keep that sort of attitude a bit more tucked away, I have no doubts that there remains an element of the German population for which at least the temptation is there. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Oct 23, 2014 |
# ? Oct 23, 2014 16:16 |
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I imagine if things had turned out differently, Josef Dzhugashvili would've ended up writing alternate history books under a steel-related pseudonym.
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# ? Oct 23, 2014 17:50 |
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After having read (a Let's Read of) John Ringo's "Ghost," I'm perfectly willing to accept a German Neo-Nazi calling himself Henry Steel and writing in perfect seriousness about Imperial German SS Stormtroopers on Callisto. I accept that someone might write that book without intending to be ironic, I mean. I'm not about to accept the book itself.
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# ? Oct 23, 2014 17:57 |
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Metal Loaf posted:I imagine if things had turned out differently, Josef Dzhugashvili would've ended up writing alternate history books under a steel-related pseudonym. Now I just have to mention The Red Napoleon http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/21/mongol_hordes_take_manhattan quote:The Red Napoleon was written in 1929 by Chicago Tribune war correspondent Floyd Gibbons, whose fictional alter ego is also the book's protagonist. A journalistic pioneer, Gibbons' nonfiction reporting has been the subject of glowing hagiographies, most of which omit mention of the fictional race war he spent 470 pages chronicling. Did he reincarnate as Tom Clancy? Speaking of which, here's a interesting question: Do books set in 'modern times' become alt history after a certain amount of time has passed. For example, back in the turn-of-the-century UK there was a large genre; Invasion literature ,who's plots revolved around foreign armies invading the UK; now that that era has long since passed and countries like Imperial Germany no longer exists (except in the heart of Henrich von Stahl apparently) , should those be classified as alt history?
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# ? Oct 24, 2014 04:16 |
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I don't think they should. They are fundamentally different than alternate history because they try to predict the future by extrapolating from the present, whereas alternate history looks at recorded history and makes subtle changes, then extrapolates from there. Alternate history works because we know what really happened, speculative fiction works because we know what is now and what might happen.
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# ? Oct 24, 2014 06:48 |
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Nckdictator posted:Now I just have to mention The Red Napoleon I'm not terribly keen on alternate history stories where the point of divergence itself is the existence of an original character. (I appreciate that this is rather a small thing to pick out considering... Well, everything else.)
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# ? Oct 24, 2014 10:28 |
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Nckdictator posted:Now I just have to mention The Red Napoleon I like that this dude hated whites so much that he massacred the entire white population of Australia at the time. I can really get behind that kind of work ethic.
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# ? Oct 25, 2014 00:27 |
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thatbastardken posted:I like that this dude hated whites so much that he massacred the entire white population of Australia at the time. I can really get behind that kind of work ethic. There's probably some kind of Pauline Hanson joke to be made here.
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# ? Oct 25, 2014 00:58 |
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Jazerus posted:Once the series was past World War I it kind of collapsed in my opinion. All of the clearly passionate research and thinking about the path that things could have gone on had the CSA really had the chops to be an independent state was thrown aside in favor of yet another Turtledove WW2 book. I think my favorite detail is that Lincoln is the primary founder of the Socialist party. Like I said earlier Guns of The South is far better at really digging into the actual political landscape of a (historically impossible) late war Southern victory than Turtledove's main CSA series. Of course you have to swallow the Sci-fi elements that go along with the story, which was fine for me, but might not be for everyone who is in to the alt history genre. And I agree for the most part with your analysis. The story through WWI was decent, despite my own objections to its plausibility. The WW2 books, however, were just complete junk. I mean the story is literally an event for event retelling of WW2 with new Confederate Skins badly pastes over Germans/Nazis. Nckdictator posted:I'd actually be interested in reading something where the starting point is a successful German 1919 revolution. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Oct 25, 2014 |
# ? Oct 25, 2014 20:24 |
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I'd be interested in a series where Operation Unthinkable happens if Patton doesn't die in a car crash.
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# ? Oct 26, 2014 14:26 |
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Metal Loaf posted:Conroy wrote another book called 1901. I've not read it but my brother has. 14 year old me enjoyed it well enough. Not bad but not great either. Theodore Roosevelt threatening the kaiser with gathering a posse to hang him made me chuckle.
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# ? Oct 28, 2014 16:59 |
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Does this site have any threads beside this that specialize in alternate history?
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 00:17 |
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Grouchio posted:Does this site have any threads beside this that specialize in alternate history? I can't think of anything other than the various LPs of historical games, particularly Paradox's grand strategy games, whcih tend to involve the LPer crafting a narrative around events in their games, usually tinkering around the edges towards certain arcs in the story. Two recent popular threads (still ongoing) are ZearothK's Hansa LP, and Rincewind's Byzantium LP, both of which are well written and certainly enjoyable, though as a heads up ZearothK's LP has some wacky elements like seafaring Aztecs (due to an optional DLC in Crusader Kings) while Rincewind's LP features an attempt at modding in a small historical event going hilariously awry and rewriting history in an implausible but amusing way. An example of something perhaps a bit more vanilla would be Wiz's LPs, the completed Hohenzollern LP [archive link] or the on hiatus Azerbijan LP. But if LPs are not your thing, I think this thread might be it.
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 02:27 |
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I was once a member of Alternate History forums before I was banned for a misinterpreted quip because they thought I was some misogynist, when really I just had social difficulties around girls/ making friends until 6 months ago.
Grouchio fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Nov 4, 2014 |
# ? Nov 4, 2014 03:36 |
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Grouchio posted:I was once a member of Alternate History forums before I was banned for a misinterpreted quip because they thought I was some misogynist, when really I just had social difficulties around girls/ making friends until 6 months ago. In your quest to befriend people and act normally around girls, I would recommend against mentioning this event to people you just met.
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 13:16 |
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Personally, I think I prefer Alternate History short stories rather than novels. Short stories let the author get their point across without getting bogged down too much in miscellaneous details.
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 13:38 |
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muscles like this? posted:Personally, I think I prefer Alternate History short stories rather than novels. Short stories let the author get their point across without getting bogged down too much in miscellaneous details. What, you don't enjoy learning about Wicca every other page in S.M. Stirling books?
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 17:29 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 06:34 |
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Reveilled posted:In your quest to befriend people and act normally around girls, I would recommend against mentioning this event to people you just met. I'm just wondering if you've heard of the place.
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# ? Nov 4, 2014 18:45 |