|
I've been on a Vonnegut kick. Who should I move onto next?
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 22:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 01:55 |
|
|
NienNunb posted:I've been on a Vonnegut kick. Who should I move onto next? Pynchon
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 22:05
|
|
|
Depending on why you liked Vonnegut, Catch 22 might be a good bet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
I liked that the narration was relatively quick and to the point. Less time on describing in detail how a setting looked and sounded, more on the actual human element.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
Catch 22 is funny and (obviously) has a WWII focus, and I wouldn't personally describe Heller as verbose, but he's probably a bit more so than Vonnegut. I'd say read a few pages on Amazon or Google books and if you feel like it works for you, get the book, because it's great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 23:12
|
|
|
Barlow posted:I'd second your thought that "Home" was lacking and if you aren't doing the trilogy it could be skipped. Plotwise it repeats the exact same ground as "Gilead." The Jack Boughton character was far too relatable and friendly in "Home," he seemed to lack any clear characteristic that would make it obvious why someone would be so wary of him. The way that he's described by Aimes in "Gilead" you get the sense that he's dangerous, a potential psycopath, but in "Home" he's reduced to being a melancholy alcoholic. Thinking about it further actually hurt my appreciation for that part of "Gilead." Yeah the Jack of Home is completely different from the Jack of Gilead and it makes Ames seem a lot less like a guy struggling to forgive and love someone who has caused his loved ones agony and more that he is a judgemental prick. What makes Lila work is that it genuinely feels like two different perspectives of the same event. You can read Gilead and Lila and believe these are two different people interpreting events through their own world view. Home feels like its in a completely different universe, its completely incompatible with Gilead.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 00:07
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:Not really sure why that would matter. The Pulitzer Prize can be awarded posthumously. As far as I understood no one won because the Pulitzer board had decided no one "deserved" to win. I do agree though that The Pale King was probably nominated just to give the prize to DFW. Same thing with Train Dreams. Denis Johnson deserves a Pulitzer, just not for that book. Boatswain posted:On the other hand I tried to read it but couldn't manage more than fifty pages before I threw up. Oh drat. No idea this book was so polarizing. What didn't you like about it? Max posted:I finished Waiting for the Barbarians by Coetzee and I need more literature like that. Another book of his, The Life and Times of Michael K, is worth your time, then. I always like to recommend Waiting for the Barbarians to my friends who read young adult fiction or more mainstream, easy-going literature. Coetzee strikes a good balance between complex themes and simple presentation. Michael K is similar, in that regard. Also one of my favorite conclusions of all time, prosaically.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 15:02
|
|
|
UnoriginalMind posted:Oh drat. No idea this book was so polarizing. What didn't you like about it? Which book? I loved Swamplandia and liked Pale King and Train Dreams. I just thought Swamplandia should have been the winner.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 16:46
|
|
|
UnoriginalMind posted:Oh drat. No idea this book was so polarizing. What didn't you like about it? I was being hyperbolic and it was a while I go, but IIRC I felt it was too cutesy and especially too american in its presentation and view of itself. It fits perfectly in the category of "literary fiction" which is so popular in both the US and UK & that makes people gush while I don't think the novel (or its first 50 pages) deserve any such accolades, so I guess I'm reacting to that as much as the novel in itself. I guess I'm being excruciatingly snobbish & generalizing but I am so tired of the usual NBA/Pulitzer/Booker Prize novel which is safe, comforting and in my opinion so very tired. I agree that Michael K is worth it, and most of what Coetzee has written. Elizabeth Costello is very interesting and The Master of St. Petersburg is very moving.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
UnoriginalMind posted:Another book of his, The Life and Times of Michael K, is worth your time, then. I always like to recommend Waiting for the Barbarians to my friends who read young adult fiction or more mainstream, easy-going literature. Coetzee strikes a good balance between complex themes and simple presentation. Michael K is similar, in that regard. Also one of my favorite conclusions of all time, prosaically. Awesome, thanks! I don't have a problem with more complex language, but I do like seeing what someone can do with simple presentations.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
Boatswain posted:I was being hyperbolic and it was a while I go, but IIRC I felt it was too cutesy and especially too american in its presentation and view of itself. It fits perfectly in the category of "literary fiction" which is so popular in both the US and UK & that makes people gush while I don't think the novel (or its first 50 pages) deserve any such accolades, so I guess I'm reacting to that as much as the novel in itself. I guess I'm being excruciatingly snobbish & generalizing but I am so tired of the usual NBA/Pulitzer/Booker Prize novel which is safe, comforting and in my opinion so very tired. American Literature gets such a bad rap. It's my favorite though. I'm biased! Also, that book gets pretty drat "unsafe" when the main character is kidnapped and raped when you thought this was going to be a magical realist boat journey. Nope. Sexual assault. Max posted:Awesome, thanks! I don't have a problem with more complex language, but I do like seeing what someone can do with simple presentations. I don't have a problem with complexity either. I liked Gravity's Rainbow, for example. But there's just something about sitting down with a copy of Disgrace, drinking too much coffee, and blowing through it in 2 hours. Simplicity can be fine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2015 22:25
|
|
|
UnoriginalMind posted:American Literature gets such a bad rap. Contemporary American Literature is fantastic and I will fight anyone with the broken end of a beer bottle if they try to say otherwise
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
Well not just content but tone / characterization etc. Swamplandia didn't grip me.Mel Mudkiper posted:Contemporary American Literature is fantastic and I will fight anyone with the broken end of a beer bottle if they try to say otherwise Lol it is terrible but then everything is so 
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 01:28
|
|
|
There's plenty of great contemporary American lit, there's just more poo poo than gold. Which is true of pretty much everything ever. For me it was just a matter of digging past the superficial layer of boring, hermetic MA-program-style writing that gets pushed as the contemporary lit scene.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
Grizzled Patriarch posted:There's plenty of great contemporary American lit, there's just more poo poo than gold. Which is true of pretty much everything ever. For me it was just a matter of digging past the superficial layer of boring, hermetic MA-program-style writing that gets pushed as the contemporary lit scene. From what I know the German/French/Spanish scene is more interesting and less MFA than either the American or British scene. E: this is stupid so I'll refrain from this kind of arguments in the future 
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
Grizzled Patriarch posted:For me it was just a matter of digging past the superficial layer of boring, hermetic MA-program-style writing that gets pushed as the contemporary lit scene. How could the shallow epiphanies of an upper-class collegiate get old?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 02:31
|
|
|
poisonpill posted:How could the shallow epiphanies of an upper-class collegiate get old? Or the riveting tale of a milquetoast creative writing professor's encounter with a nubile young co-ed!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 02:39
|
|
|
Poll: what is the name of the current trend in literary fiction? Post-Postmodernism?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 09:05
|
|
|
Post-postmodernism is just Modernism with "trans" bolted onto the front of all the buzzwords. edit: Personally, the bulk of most contemporary literature still feels firmly postmodern. There are plenty of exceptions, just like there always have been, but there's basically a whole niche industry propped up by people trying to weed out the "next big thing." I've heard post-postmodernism, performatism, pseudo-modernism, etc. They all have nice, cleanly packaged definitions that fit plenty of cherry-picked example texts, but nothing that you could apply very broadly. I also feel like trying to predict the trends / identifying features of a literary movement as it is happening is probably a fool's errand. I imagine it will be called whatever the fresh batch of critics in 10 or 20 years feel like calling it. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jan 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 09:08
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Poll: what is the name of the current trend in literary fiction? Post-Postmodernism? Depends what you even see the current prevailing modes of discourse + whatever as being. I think we're still mostly on irony so I don't think we've progressed much past postmodernism even though its been dead since 1973.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 14:40
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Poll: what is the name of the current trend in literary fiction? Genre fiction
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 17:09
|
|
|
I really don't understand where the stereotype of American Contemporary Literature comes from. I try to average about 20 or so "American contemporary lit" books hot off the presses every year and the experience is always way more diverse than I think people give it credit for. Off the top of my head, the only books I can think of to fit the stereotype of "young white college guy experiences epiphany/middle aged man fucks his coed and thinks on aging" from the last year or so are 10:04 and Death of the Black-Haired Girl. Maybe you could toss Everything I Never Told You and Wolf in White Van into there. In the meantime, there have been books like The Goldfinch, A Brief History of Seven Killings, All Our Names, The Good Lord Bird, Americanah, The Kept, An Untamed State, etc. If anything, I would say contemporary American fiction has a genuinely excellent diversity of authors and narratives, definitely superior to the weird idea of American fiction as a repository of shoe-gazing MFA students.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:
Uh...??
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:Uh...?? Depressed 20-something RPG writer sitting alone in his apartment reflecting on his young life and the emptiness of it all fits the bill close enough to match "the stereotype" people talk about imho. Not saying the book is bad, its surprisingly good for a book by an Indie musician. However, it could easily be pegged as more or less matching the stereotype.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:
Is that where Woody Allen gets his inspiration?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:39
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:Depressed 20-something RPG writer sitting alone in his apartment reflecting on his young life and the emptiness of it all fits the bill close enough to match "the stereotype" people talk about imho. That would be a really weird way to put it, I guess? "40-something shut-in living with a severe deformity after an attempted suicide as a teenager freaks out after his coping mechanism of RPG-by-mail leads to tragedy in someone else's life" is a more accurate description of the plot, even if most of the book is given over to describing the interior feelings of loneliness and isolation, with most of the plot just being flashbacks and reveals.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:That would be a really weird way to put it, I guess? "40-something shut-in living with a severe deformity after an attempted suicide as a teenager freaks out after his coping mechanism of RPG-by-mail leads to tragedy in someone else's life" is a more accurate description of the plot, even if most of the book is given over to describing the interior feelings of loneliness and isolation, with most of the plot just being flashbacks and reveals. As I said, maybe you could count it. You are right that if you look at it under anything but the broadest summary it doesn't really click. Ironically my original point was how there are actually few books that much the stereotype of what American fiction is so I guess thanks for proving that point for me. EDIT: you forgot attempted suicide as a split second act of sheer nihilism after plotting to murder his parents Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
this book you guys are talking about sounds more like a typical e/n thread than any kind of literature
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:this book you guys are talking about sounds more like a typical e/n thread than any kind of literature Arguably the only difference between literature and an e/n thread is the quality of writing. The Great Gatsby was one friend-zone away from carrying Daisy's printer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:this book you guys are talking about sounds more like a typical e/n thread than any kind of literature Dear E/N, I have sort of a weird problem. One morning, when I woke from troubled dreams, I found myself transformed in my bed into a horrible vermin
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
Dante is literally fan fiction. If The Divine Comedy had been written today he would have been lead through hell by Goku.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
When you think about it all western literature pre 1700 is just Bible fanfiction
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:28
|
|
|
AFter 1700 it becomes Rousseau fanfiction.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:28
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:Arguably the only difference between literature and an e/n thread is the quality of writing. I don't think that is the only difference. I think literature generally needs to make some sort of statement about society or art or culture beyond simply detailing the life or a specific problem of one pathetic person, but again I haven't read the book you are talking about so maybe it does
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 20:32
|
|
|
"College professor fucks his hot student" was actually good when it was Stoner.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 21:03
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:I don't think that is the only difference. I think literature generally needs to make some sort of statement about society or art or culture beyond simply detailing the life or a specific problem of one pathetic person, but again I haven't read the book you are talking about so maybe it does It is interesting that you list art, culture, and society as important elements to analyze but don't mention people themselves. There is a value to a writer focusing on the human experience in itself, and I would argue it's the most important element of good fiction. I finished Cloud Atlas a week or so ago and didn't really like it for that very reason. It wants to be a treatise on society and politics and humanity but in the end reduces it's entire cast to caricature and stereotype. I would rather have a book with a well written and authentic human being who says nothing about "the world" than a biblical treatise on existence populated only by icons and symbols. EDIT: faaaaarrrrrrrtttttttt
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 21:16
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:It is interesting that you list art, culture, and society as important elements to analyze but don't mention people themselves. There is a value to a writer focusing on the human experience in itself, and I would argue it's the most important element of good fiction. Well all of those things are made of and by people themselves. Don't get me wrong I appreciate a good character study or slice of life type story but I guess I've always thought of "literary" as of course including the human experience but also going a bit beyond it on an individual level.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 22:01
|
|
|
I don't think "literary" is a a question of content but rather of style. I don't mean a specific style but writerly style in general - how the author presents the narrative, how the author uses language, how comfortable the author is with ambiguity etc. IMO this is a better qualifier since it can include for instance both the nouveau roman and whatever won the Booker Prize last year. e: the true answer is that "literary" doesn't matter and must always be put in a social and historical context, peace
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2015 22:34
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Poll: what is the name of the current trend in literary fiction? Post-Postmodernism? Could you give an example of a work that you want categorized?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 01:55 |
|
|
Boatswain posted:I don't think "literary" is a a question of content but rather of style. I don't mean a specific style but writerly style in general - how the author presents the narrative, how the author uses language, how comfortable the author is with ambiguity etc. IMO this is a better qualifier since it can include for instance both the nouveau roman and whatever won the Booker Prize last year. Pretty much this. It's also important to remember that, say, the "postmodern" era doesn't mean that everything everyone writes is postmodern. Like DFW gets tossed around as postmodern even though he always seemed more like a modernist in postmodern clothing to me, and then you've got people like Stephen King, who's probably going to have more longevity than 99% of the "literary" crowd, and he's basically a contemporary naturalist. And even for literary buffs, I'm fairly certain most people would have a hell of time recognizing the vast majority of Nobel Prize nominees (and even winners) going back more than a couple decades. The contemporary "highbrow" scene is, in most cases, not what ends up being remembered anyway. Trying to pigeonhole and label every little thing is kind of pointless. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:07
|
|