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Feb 23, 2015 04:54
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there's nothing wrong with having backstory or whatever for your dungeon, wow has quests for pretty much every dungeon so you can learn the tragic backstory of some gently caress or some other reason you want to run the dungeon if you give a poo poo about the lore, and you get a pocket full of gold, a cutscene, and whatever else for doing it. but if you're like everyone else in the world, skip all quest text and just care about beating up monsters, you can just queue and get put in a level appropriate dungeon. item level restrictions sort out everything at cap there is absolutely no reason not to have both systems in place and make everyone happy
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Feb 23, 2015 04:55
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OWLS! posted:all mmo design is bad p much yea
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Feb 23, 2015 04:56
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Velthice posted:there's nothing wrong with having backstory or whatever for your dungeon, wow has quests for pretty much every dungeon so you can learn the tragic backstory of some gently caress or some other reason you want to run the dungeon if you give a poo poo about the lore, and you get a pocket full of gold, a cutscene, and whatever else for doing it. but if you're like everyone else in the world, skip all quest text and just care about beating up monsters, you can just queue and get put in a level appropriate dungeon. item level restrictions sort out everything at cap On the other hand, I think at the very least making the story mandatory from 1 to 50 is a legitimately beneficial thing for the overall health of the game because it forces people to learn HOW TO DUNGEON which is important in a game where, for many people, this is their first MMO. Now I can understand your complaint in the post 50 context, but the 1 to 50 mandatory storyline actually serves a purpose.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:15
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I don't think the mandatory cutscenes and story bullshit are that bad because you only have to do it once, forever, because there's literally no reason to roll an alt. It would be a huge pain in the rear end if you had to roll a new character for each class.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:18
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It's not like any MMO has or could have dungeons that are so fun I'm going to be legitimately excited about playing through them 100 times just on the basis of their own entertainment value. The magic of an MMO is being able to structure everything in such a way that you actually care about your progression and get satisfaction out of content, even if it is a grind. It just seems weird to talk about cutting out the unnecessary parts of an MMO when you can just as easily say that most dungeons are, at best, a trivial challenge and their real purpose is generally to grind in a somewhat entertaining way so that you can do later content.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:23
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Martman posted:\ Cut out all of the MMO cruft and you are left with http://poitot.com/simjew/
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Feb 23, 2015 05:27
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Captain Oblivious posted:On the other hand, I think at the very least making the story mandatory from 1 to 50 is a legitimately beneficial thing for the overall health of the game because it forces people to learn HOW TO DUNGEON which is important in a game where, for many people, this is their first MMO. no it's not, the main story in xiv doesn't teach you poo poo about dungeoning. your class quests teach you what your class actually does. the only purpose the main scenario questline serves is satisfying lore nerds and pissing off people that want to play with their friends from the get go by having quests that actually discourage grouping, and keeping you from doing dungeons until you both slog through collecting 100 bear asses thh required number of times it's baaaad
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Feb 23, 2015 05:29
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So basically you're saying MMOs should not ever have required single player content, but uh, some people disagree. It's Final Fantasy, dude, it's not incomprehensible that it's gonna be hugely influenced by single-player RPGs.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:34
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On the other hand, it attracts a lot of people who want to play just for the story. With that free month it's like playing any other Final Fantasy game.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:34
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Velthice posted:no it's not, the main story in xiv doesn't teach you poo poo about dungeoning. your class quests teach you what your class actually does. the only purpose the main scenario questline serves is satisfying lore nerds and pissing off people that want to play with their friends from the get go by having quests that actually discourage grouping, and keeping you from doing dungeons until you both slog through collecting 100 bear asses thh required number of times Nah, having gotten multiple new people into the game and watched their progress closely, I can say you're incredibly wrong about how effective the main story mandated dungeons/trials are at easing new people into MMO concepts. It's a good system, no matter how unnecessary it may be for vets.
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Feb 23, 2015 05:39
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please change the thread title to "The Broke-Brained Cult of Yoshi P" is it really so hard to admit that maybe locking all your content behind mandatory boring lovely quests might not be a great idea? especially when there's other just as good (lol good) mmo's that don't do that poo poo? you can have it both ways guys. story for people who want it, instant action for people who don't. this wouldn't even be a point of contention but mmo players are a broken lot that feel compelled to defend their lovely games from any and all criticism. and now we're really full circle back around to wildstar
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Feb 23, 2015 05:48
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Velthice posted:please change the thread title to "The Broke-Brained Cult of Yoshi P" You're vastly underestimating just how many people's first introduction to MMOs is Final Fantasy 14. Part of what's given FF14 a strong market share is that it's managed to pull in a lot of players who haven't actually done the whole MMO song & dance before, and eased them into a bunch of concepts that are second nature to people who spend Too God drat Much time playing games like it. I don't think it's handled perfectly by any means, but WoW is closer to a KMMO than a story-based RPG at this point as far as dropping you right in. Niton fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Feb 23, 2015 |
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Feb 23, 2015 05:56
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Velthice posted:please change the thread title to "The Broke-Brained Cult of Yoshi P" The sad thing is I'm even conditionally agreeing with you. I think that making it optional post-50 would be fine, but that 1-50 serves a purpose. Like I'm not touting this as a perfect decision, I'm saying that it's a conscious decision with tradeoffs and that the minor irritation it causes MMO vets like you or me is acceptable losses.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:00
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Velthice posted:please change the thread title to "The Broke-Brained Cult of Yoshi P" Settle down Beavis. I don't think you're wrong, it's a totally legitimate complaint, but a lot of people just don't see it as a big a problem as you do, or even a problem at all. Just because you proclaim it's bad doesn't mean everyone who disagrees is a braindead cultist.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:01
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Velthice posted:
idk i'm abivalent on it. i skipped most of the story, and poo poo was fun enough to keep me going. does this make me a cultist? though when i think 'instant action' mmos are literally the last genre that comes to mind. allow me to illustrate how far these things are apart code:
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Feb 23, 2015 06:02
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Niton posted:You're vastly underestimating just how many people's first introduction to MMOs is Final Fantasy 14. Part of what's given FF14 a strong market share is that it's managed to pull in a lot of players who haven't actually done the whole MMO song & dance before, and eased them into a bunch of concepts that are second nature to people who spend Too God drat Much time playing games like it. oh well that excuses lovely design i guess! what part of "you can have it both ways" aren't you grasping here? i'm not even sure how i could put that any simpler, like really, you've stumped me here
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Feb 23, 2015 06:02
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lol holy poo poo I make a post and a bunch of people jump on their swords while I respond to one. take it easy guys, it's a video game lmao also i ain't reading probably any of that poo poo sorry
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Feb 23, 2015 06:03
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you're rly defensive.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:05
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aight i lied and read poo poo. i guess you guys are alright, i'm just use to dealing with people who treat xiv like it's the one true way and some infallible thing also triple posting cause i don't give a gently caress
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Feb 23, 2015 06:06
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can we have a goatfucking meltdown in this thread yet?
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Feb 23, 2015 06:06
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I think the point Velthice is trying to make is that MMOs tend to make you do a bunch of stuff you don't want to do before you can do the stuff you want to do. It would be nice if you didn't have to do that.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:07
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nvm
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Feb 23, 2015 06:07
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Pavlov posted:I think the point Velthice is trying to make is that MMOs tend to make you do a bunch of stuff you don't want to do before you can do the stuff you want to do. It would be nice if you didn't have to do that. yea man
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Feb 23, 2015 06:07
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Velthice posted:please change the thread title to "The Broke-Brained Cult of Yoshi P" My wife never played an MMO before XIV 2.0. She hadno idea what certain concepts of MMOs meant. The story quests for the main game eased her in to tons of those by partnering her up with players who are also new and vets. Since content had to be ran at least once you'd frequently run in to other playing. Through story content she's made friends, learned vital aspects of Enmity/Agro mechanics, Crowd Control, healing, timing, stack mechanics and the like. However, now that she's 50 in every crafting class and four combat classes (She mains a tank class, Warrior) she even gets frustrated with content locked behind post-game plot. It can take someone skipping all the cutscenes about seven hours to get from a fresh level 50 post-game content to current release content. That's mostly travel time/required content to get to the next unlock. She now hates the plot related stuff. On the flip side I've been playing MMOs since UO launch up until now and I loving love the storyline. After so many MMOs have the "ACCEPT OR DECLINE. HERE IS A BUNCH OF TEXT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING." set up, it's a nice change of pace. Heck, you only have to do it once on your character. I was also one of the crazy people who enjoyed XI's storyline which also locked content behind it. I don't mind it, it doesn't seem all that bad to me other than the "Go here, now come back, now go back to where you were, now come back, now go to town, now come back then go back to the first place you were at. Congrats, you can now do a dungeon." We have loving linkshells in this world! USE THEM. But that's a lore complaint. Two complete opposite view points in the same household. My wife's complaint it valid based on her play style, mine is valid based on my style. If there was a switch in between that just said "You gotta go do this fight because you are the baddest cat-girl around" I think she'd be happy. But then you hit the whole developer argument of content that exists that people wouldn't see?
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Feb 23, 2015 06:09
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Pavlov posted:I think the point Velthice is trying to make is that MMOs tend to make you do a bunch of stuff you don't want to do before you can do the stuff you want to do. It would be nice if you didn't have to do that. it's kind of funny because literaly the easiest way to do this would be to not play an mmo. there's like dotas and poo poo out there if you want to pvp, and there's oblivion if you want dumb fetchquests.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:10
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i hate one aspect of an mmo game, therefore i must hate all aspects of an mmo game. there can be no inbetween
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Feb 23, 2015 06:11
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the entire point of mmos is to have dumb pointless content to con you into giving the company your money. sub or cashshop poo poo or whatever
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Feb 23, 2015 06:12
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don't play mmos kids.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:12
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Velthice posted:i hate one aspect of an mmo game, therefore i must hate all aspects of an mmo game. there can be no inbetween dude chill, literally nobody even implied this.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:14
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It's OK Velthice. It's OK to not like something. There are a lot of things I don't like about XIV too, but I think the overall experience balances out to be positive. Now let's hug it out.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:16
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OWLS! posted:it's kind of funny because literaly the easiest way to do this would be to not play an mmo. there's like dotas and poo poo out there if you want to pvp, and there's oblivion if you want dumb fetchquests. Yah I mostly just do that. But an MMO is just having a bunch of people in the same gamespace. So like, maybe they'll make a good one that isn't tedious eventually. That would be nice.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:18
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Fister Roboto posted:It's OK Velthice. It's OK to not like something. There are a lot of things I don't like about XIV too, but I think the overall experience balances out to be positive. Now let's hug it out. now that i legit agree with
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Feb 23, 2015 06:26
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Eonwe posted:i cant wait for the next developer that actively caters to grognards
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Feb 23, 2015 06:42
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Amante posted:crowfall is doing this, albeit in ways that sound remotely sensible (and of course will be a total mess when the actual beta goes live) 
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Feb 23, 2015 06:55
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Eonwe posted:i cant wait for the next developer that actively caters to grognards Pathfinder Online. Though it doesn't look like it'll cater to raid grogs, just the kind who want a big empty open world with nothing in it but random mobs and PvP. Captain Oblivious posted:Nah, having gotten multiple new people into the game and watched their progress closely, I can say you're incredibly wrong about how effective the main story mandated dungeons/trials are at easing new people into MMO concepts. It's a good system, no matter how unnecessary it may be for vets. Mandatory dungeons also encourage players to learn how to heal and tank because those roles rarely have to wait longer than a minute to get a dungeon. The Guildhest system is even better at teaching MMO concepts, easy five minute fights in a party against packs of mobs or a miniboss, usually accompanied by an NPC that will shout tips about how to do the fight.
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Feb 23, 2015 06:59
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I never really felt bothered by quest locking a lot of poo poo in FF14 until I leveled an alt. And even then I just had to do enough poo poo to unlock EX roulette so I could cap poetics.
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Feb 23, 2015 07:06
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So what everyone seems to be saying is I shouldn't have picked up Wildstar when it was on sale a few weeks ago? :\
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Feb 23, 2015 07:36
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Quidnose posted:So what everyone seems to be saying is I shouldn't have picked up Wildstar when it was on sale a few weeks ago? :\ nah, play it, post trip report.
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Feb 23, 2015 07:37
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I think people are missing the point of why FFXIV does what it does with endgame content. People in FFXIV endgame are, by and whole, actually competent. I'm not saying they're FCOB competent, but I rarely get a random group that can't handle a speedrun. They do this by making everyone do all the stuff, and in some cases redo it. No one can get to endgame without doing all the early poo poo and learning to play. This is why the guildhests are also baked into the story quests. Some people don't like this, and would rather have the WoW style of just poopsocking (or buying) your way to endgame and not knowing how to play. I'm not saying FFXIV is objectively better, but it is a conscious choice on the part of the designers. It's also why the Zodiac weapons make you do lots of earlier content, such as Fates, dungeons, and guildhests. It's so new players have experienced players to group with and learn from, and don't have to wait 50 minutes to do Satasha. I think it's actually pretty clever of them.
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Feb 23, 2015 08:13
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