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boom boom boom posted:I think Battle for the Abyss gets a ton of poo poo not just because it was bad and stupid, but because it was the first Horus Heresy book that clearly did not contribute to the larger story at all. I think it wouldn't have been received half as poorly if it had been a novella like Prince of Crows or something.
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Feb 25, 2015 16:59
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Everything the word bearers do in the heresy is some degree of stupid though.
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Feb 25, 2015 17:01
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Sandweed posted:Everything
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Feb 25, 2015 17:23
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^Everything in 40k is dumb, but the Primarchs turning is the dumbest. You already know the Emperor loves you best of all you idiots. It's not like you're his only children that took him decades of work and whose loss sparked the greatest crusade Mankind has ever known.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:58
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Some of the Primarchs had legit reasons for turning.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:01
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Some of them had legitimate reasons for being upset. It was only the influence of Chaos that turned what would have been minor talking points into attempted patricide.
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Feb 26, 2015 00:20
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I think Curze was broken before the Emperor found him, and the finding of Angron broke him But other than those 2, the Emperor is just a bad parent
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Feb 26, 2015 00:49
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Peztopiary posted:You already know the Emperor loves you best of all you idiots. Survey says no, he didn't. The Horus Heresy books strongly suggest that the Emperor saw them as tools, not his children. For example: Lorgar: Hi dad. I'm high priest of this planet and conquered this world with a crusading army built around worshiping you as a god. Your arrival fulfills my holiest of prophecies. Emperor: Okie dokie. Here's an army. Lorgar: They will conquer the galaxy in your holiest of names. Emperor: Whatever works, champ. *later* Emperor: WTF why are you calling me a god and why are there planets worshiping me?
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Feb 26, 2015 01:27
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Ferrus Manus takes after dad too. "Gee..I'm getting a little disturbed that my sons are having body image issues and replacing their meat bits with metal bits in my image, even though I only have it covered on my arms. I should really do something about that before it gets out of hand and help them. In fact I'm definitely going to rip this drat metal off..but first I'm gonna kill Horus on this planet and everything will be fine."
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Feb 26, 2015 01:44
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Vadoc posted:Ferrus Manus takes after dad too. "Gee..I'm getting a little disturbed that my sons are having body image issues and replacing their meat bits with metal bits in my image, even though I only have it covered on my arms. I should really do something about that before it gets out of hand and help them. In fact I'm definitely going to rip this drat metal off..but first I'm gonna kill Horus on this planet and everything will be fine." Ferrus was one of the more stable primarchs, even though he was goony and didn't understand his best bro's paintings.
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Feb 26, 2015 01:51
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Waroduce posted:I think Curze was broken before the Emperor found him, and the finding of Angron broke him Well "parent" is stretching it. The books kind of hint that he see's them as tools. Besides that he also found them as fully grown adults who had matured and had become the ruler of their adopted planet. What was he gonna do? raise them ? Cause i can tell you that most adults dont appreciate being treated like children.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:22
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Improbable Lobster posted:Ferrus was one of the more stable primarchs, even though he was goony and didn't understand his best bro's paintings. I thought that was supposed to be Ferrus just ribbing his brother a little, a friendly jab, but Fulgrim of all primarchs seems to have been the least capable of laughing at himself and admitting fault, even in jest.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:38
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Ferrus also  'd Lorgar, making him the best Primarch.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:43
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REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:Ferrus also Remind me of what he says, please.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:44
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"One wonders if you are capable of making anything that creates, rather than destroys." He tried to smile, hoping it would rob the accusation of any venom as he stood uncomfortably in the heat blaring from the open furnace. Ferrus had cast a glance over his dark-skinned shoulder and watched his fey brother for a moment, not returning the smile. "One wonders if you are capable of creating anything worthwhile at all." the actual encounter details more, where he basically continues to call Lorgar a piece of poo poo who he hates, but that was the big part.
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Feb 26, 2015 03:54
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His zealotry aside, before Lorgar turned to Chaos he genuinely seemed like the most human and one of the more likable primarchs.
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Feb 26, 2015 04:32
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Peztopiary posted:^Everything in 40k is dumb, but the Primarchs turning is the dumbest. You already know the Emperor loves you best of all you idiots. It's not like you're his only children that took him decades of work and whose loss sparked the greatest crusade Mankind has ever known. Emps didn't love them like a father. They were his best made weapons. Nothing more.
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Feb 26, 2015 04:43
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AndyElusive posted:His zealotry aside, before Lorgar turned to Chaos he genuinely seemed like the most human and one of the more likable primarchs. Personally, I think that's the point. It's the most human of the primarchs that turned to Chaos. It's the remote, inhuman ones that stayed loyal.
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Feb 26, 2015 04:45
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REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:"One wonders if you are capable of making anything that creates, rather than destroys." He tried to smile, hoping it would rob the accusation of any venom as he stood uncomfortably in the heat blaring from the open furnace. Primarch of the year, all years
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Feb 26, 2015 04:46
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I think that's the point. It's the most human of the primarchs that turned to Chaos. It's the remote, inhuman ones that stayed loyal. Yup, I agree and it's pretty clearly the point. Some of the most likable characters in HH so far have been those who fell to Chaos thorough one means or another.
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Feb 26, 2015 05:10
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I think, ironically, some of the 'best' Primarchs were the ones who understood they were pretty much just weapons. The only sort-of exception to this was Guilliman, but even most of his culture was established on the back of military theory and treatise.
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Feb 26, 2015 05:18
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Read Helsreach. Was good. Reading Night Lords omnibus. Is great.
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Feb 26, 2015 07:58
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AndyElusive posted:Yup, I agree and it's pretty clearly the point. Some of the most likable characters in HH so far have been those who fell to Chaos thorough one means or another. I think this is more a function of the better BL writers being in charge of those characters. The same reason people above made an exception for Guilliman once Abnett had a crack at rehabilitating his image. Sanguinius is supposed to be the most compassionate and beloved by ordinary people but he's written by James Swallow so welp. Same with Vulkan and *shudder* nick kyme. Dorn actually got a good treatment in that one short story, showing his sentimental side and how that connexts with his total loyalty
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Feb 26, 2015 08:42
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Mange Mite posted:I think this is more a function of the better BL writers being in charge of those characters. The same reason people above made an exception for Guilliman once Abnett had a crack at rehabilitating his image. I'd agree with this view - I'd love to believe it was some intentionally chosen theme of the series, but I'm more inclined to say the reality is just that the better writers have written mostly about the falling Primarchs than the loyalists.
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Feb 26, 2015 08:56
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Mange Mite posted:I think this is more a function of the better BL writers being in charge of those characters. The same reason people above made an exception for Guilliman once Abnett had a crack at rehabilitating his image. Yeah, it's this. Everyone is praising Ferrus Manus, but the guy has had all of about zero character development or characterization. But what we do have, like that excerpt above? It's from ADB. The quality of the writers matter.
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Feb 26, 2015 16:53
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Possibly related is the old trope about villains being more fun to write/play thus attracting the better writers in GW's stable.
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Feb 26, 2015 17:17
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If you write a whole book about a bad guy, you inevitably have to make the reader root for them in some way or its not an enjoyable read, so its not surprising they get the best character development The night lords and word bearers stories are the same
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Feb 26, 2015 19:15
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On my quest of slowly progressing through the Horus Heresy back catalogue I just finished betrayer, and it's one of the best W40k books I've read. On to some random collection of short stories now (Mark of Calth) and then Vulkan Lives. Hope the quality keeps up, but it probably won't. I maintain that the emperor is a giant incompetent idiot for giving people like Angron (after what he did to him) and Curze the reins of a superhuman army. Edit: and Perpetuals are a stupid plot point. kanonvandekempen fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 26, 2015 |
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Feb 26, 2015 22:03
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It's a toss-up for me what's more dumb, the Perpetuals or the Knights Errant. The Perpetuals are super overplayed ever since Abnett introduced them in Legion but it seems like only he can actually write them well. But at least they are sometimes compelling and decently written, even if their concept is silly and too 'big plot arc'. The Knights Errant are just a dumb group of the best marines from all the legions (oooh, even the traitor ones) who are cool and spec-ops. They're also dunked into Vengeful Spirit like they've been around the whole time, when BL know drat well barely anyone gets all the audio books that have actually told their story up til now. Stupid. I haven't read anything about Loken for nearly 10 years and they expect me to suddenly care about him again?
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Feb 26, 2015 23:15
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I think the only actual good guys who are totally justified in their actions are the workers and servitors who a revolting in the priest of mars series
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Feb 26, 2015 23:26
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Mowglis Haircut posted:The Knights Errant are just a dumb group of the best marines from all the legions (oooh, even the traitor ones) who are cool and spec-ops. They're also dunked into Vengeful Spirit like they've been around the whole time, when BL know drat well barely anyone gets all the audio books that have actually told their story up til now. Stupid. I haven't read anything about Loken for nearly 10 years and they expect me to suddenly care about him again? I think it's pretty cool getting to read about an A-Team of outcast Astartes, many of which were betrayed by their Legions because they remained loyal to the Emperor. The two audios and the short story are just team-building tales anyway, from what I understand (I've only listened to Garro).
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Feb 26, 2015 23:48
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AndyElusive posted:I think it's pretty cool getting to read about an A-Team of outcast Astartes, many of which were betrayed by their Legions because they remained loyal to the Emperor. The two audios and the short story are just team-building tales anyway, from what I understand (I've only listened to Garro). It's a cool concept ruined by bad writers, like a lot of 40k books. I think they're supposed to be a sort of precursor to the inquisition/Greg knights/deathwatch.
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Feb 27, 2015 05:59
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kanonvandekempen posted:On my quest of slowly progressing through the Horus Heresy back catalogue I just finished betrayer, and it's one of the best W40k books I've read. On to some random collection of short stories now (Mark of Calth) and then Vulkan Lives. Hope the quality keeps up, but it probably won't. Oh god no. No no. nononono. Vulkan Lives is bad. It's very bad.
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Feb 27, 2015 07:58
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SavTargaryen posted:Oh god no. No no. nononono. Vulkan Lives is bad. It's very bad. Is that the one with the good guy Vasily Zeitsev word bearer sniper in stalingrad who tells his commissar dark apostle to gently caress himself and Abnett felt compelled to continue with.
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Feb 27, 2015 09:58
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maev posted:Is that the one with the good guy Vasily Zeitsev word bearer sniper in stalingrad who tells his commissar dark apostle to gently caress himself and Abnett felt compelled to continue with. He doesn't like where Lorgar is taking his beloved Word Bearers and plans to use that stupid spear to snipe it through Lorgars eye. Or something.
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Feb 27, 2015 14:05
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ALL the Primarchs had a reason to turn. Finding out your "dad" created you as a weapon to enforce a lie, shanghighed you into an unwinnable war after he finds you and threatens to kill the people who raised you after you were kidnapped due to illicit deals he made with entities that he denies exist even though they are a severe threat to you. Oh and if you have a god, STOP IT!
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Feb 27, 2015 14:25
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Alfredo Pangea posted:ALL the Primarchs had a reason to turn. Finding out your "dad" created you as a weapon to enforce a lie, shanghighed you into an unwinnable war after he finds you and threatens to kill the people who raised you after you were kidnapped due to illicit deals he made with entities that he denies exist even though they are a severe threat to you. Oh and if you have a god, STOP IT! I don't think it works like that.
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Feb 27, 2015 15:14
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I think it's also strongly implied that Chaos was waning heavily, and Lorgar's corruption of Horus was pretty much a last ditch attempt to maintain their viability. The Emperor wasn't so much as enforcing a lie as he was fighting the Chaos gods the only way that made sense: they're empowered by worship and sacrifice, and by spreading the idea there are no gods, Science Rules, he was removing their major power base.
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Feb 27, 2015 15:51
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SavTargaryen posted:Oh god no. No no. nononono. Vulkan Lives is bad. It's very bad. If i can make it through Battle for the Abyss I can make it through everything. I like how Betrayer completely shits over that book Battle for the Abyss is about stopping the construction of a super-heavy fleet ship for the Word Bearers, several times larger than anything currently flying through space, or whatever. The good space marines succeed (IIRC) and Lorgar never gets his ship. In Betrayer it turns out he has multiple, and that he calculated in some redundancy in fleet numbers. Edit: Don't read Battle for the Abyss.
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Feb 27, 2015 16:00
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kanonvandekempen posted:If i can make it through Battle for the Abyss I can make it through everything. I like how Betrayer completely shits over that book Battle for the Abyss is about stopping the construction of a super-heavy fleet ship for the Word Bearers, several times larger than anything currently flying through space, or whatever. The good space marines succeed (IIRC) and Lorgar never gets his ship. In Betrayer it turns out he has multiple, and that he calculated in some redundancy in fleet numbers. Lorgar also reveals in Betrayer that the whole thing was meant to get rid of the doctrinally impure Word Bearers to begin with and was never expected to succeed.
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Feb 27, 2015 16:16
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