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Fedule posted:I guess we agree on one thing; the game is kinda bullshit when you're going for a Pure Platinum run. I think that's a little off the mark. Most Platinum-style action games and the later DMC games have what you describe in W101, and it's especially noticeable in DMC4 and Bayonetta - they don't want you to play as efficiently as possible (because your character is so powerful that, when played well, the enemies don't stand a chance against you). The game asks you to survive, but the metagame asks you to thrive, to play with your food - to put away DT Stinger spam and fire Durga and 100-man fists. You can see the same kind of thing in shmups, where simply looking at the rules of the game tells you that you should be constantly using bombs and sitting at the bottom of the screen, but the scoring system - ideally the developers' way of telling you what the best, most fun way of playing the game is - asks you to avoid using bombs and use the games' unique systems to play riskily. I have to totally disagree with the idea that MGR's ranking system fits with the game better than Platinum's other games. If anything it's like the disconnect you describe in W101 but on a much larger scale; the game is "supposed" to be all about efficiency, and combos themselves feel de-emphasized compared to other Platinum games (they feel a little bit closer to Ninja Gaiden in function), so why are you being ranked on them? It feels a little vestigial. On top of that it doesn't feel possible to absolutely, consistently get no damage in battles every single time you play them because of annoying things like enemies with guns (which can only really be defended against with ninja run, something that feels kind of sloppy as a defense - especially when you're engaged with other enemies) or the helicopters in the Sundowner fight. It almost feels like they intended for you to savescum to get top rankings, unlike every other Platinum game. As for why Platinum games almost never give achievements for getting top ranks - I think it's not because they lack faith in their ranking systems, but because (to some extent) they lack faith in their players and don't want to tie achievements to the hardest goals in their games. Metal Gear Rising and their Wii U games buck that trend, but Bayonetta doesn't ask you to beat Father Rodin or the Lost Chapter, and Vanquish doesn't ask you to beat God Hard. Also, Kamiya has said on twitter that he meant for Bayonetta's achievements to be like the tutorial, and I know he's said that he regretted putting some unlockables in Viewtiful Joe behind getting its equivalent of pure platinum ranks. I think they're content with just leaving their highest challenges to be player-defined most of the time, without tying them to unlockables or achievements.
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Mar 30, 2015 12:42
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Uh, at the risk of opening a can of worms... what is the move that Rodin does you mention at ~24:00?
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Mar 30, 2015 16:27
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One thing I don't really like about this game, beyond the nitpicky stuff, is that there's no easy way to find out what Umbran Climax finisher summons what thing and what they actually do: the frog one shown in the second video is a major offender, since it works differently in most finishers in that Bayonetta actually rides it and its function doesn't really correspond to the respective Wicked Weave used to summon it since none of the other WWs for Love Is Blue involve projectiles. Plus I'm still not entirely sure about what combo actually summons it...sweeps into the upward sweep kick into the forward kick WW?
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Mar 30, 2015 17:35
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Peg me as another one who didn't even know the Frog existed until you showed it off right now.
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Mar 30, 2015 17:41
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So apparently Canada has conquered New England in the Bayonetta universe? 
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Mar 30, 2015 18:47
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I've been holding off on watching any LP's of this hoping that you would do one. I enjoyed the first one that you did a lot.
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Mar 30, 2015 18:53
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I'm liking it too, but I'm just sad how negative Yoshi is about the game. I really like it, yugioh protag and all.. 
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Mar 31, 2015 00:24
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mkob posted:Yosh disclaimed that she's going point out the game's flaws in her videos every time she felt like, and that's what she's been doing so far. Though having a single video about why some elements of Bayo 2 are subpar and/or improved compared to 1 would be nice to have too at some point (like how they nerfed witch time and how enemies can break out of air combos and that sort of crap). I trust Yosh will cover everything anyway. I will most likely be doing a series on this, and not a single video, because there are so many odd design decisions they made for this game. Probably after the LP is finished, though. It's still in the conceptual stages, because I'll need to write up all the whining I've been doing on Twitter over the last 6ish months into a coherent essay (yes, a goddamn essay). Samovar posted:Uh, at the risk of opening a can of worms... what is the move that Rodin does you mention at ~24:00? Example here, or at 16:30 if that didn't work. AnotherGamer posted:One thing I don't really like about this game, beyond the nitpicky stuff, is that there's no easy way to find out what Umbran Climax finisher summons what thing and what they actually do: the frog one shown in the second video is a major offender, since it works differently in most finishers in that Bayonetta actually rides it and its function doesn't really correspond to the respective Wicked Weave used to summon it since none of the other WWs for Love Is Blue involve projectiles. The Baal summon for the Valiance verse was the last K in PPKKK, The first time we see her in the fight at the front of the Cathedral it's the last K of PPPKKK. Generally Umbran Climax Wicked Weaves correspond to what action you're doing, and the demon summons do follow this rule, but you're right, it's impossible to tell what moves will summon which demons. You can also summon Labolas when using UC'd Love Is Blue, but I'll be damned if I could tell you exactly *which* combo does it. I think it's PPKP?? Oh yeah, Baal is a lady btw, duh, check out these demon titties: 
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Mar 31, 2015 00:43
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So is there the 8 hour challenge mode in Bayonetta 2? or was that removed?
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Mar 31, 2015 01:29
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What techniques did they remove from Bayonetta 1? As far as I could tell the game has pretty much everything the first did, aside from some weapon-specific things.
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Mar 31, 2015 03:05
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I started with Bayo2 and couldn't get into Bayo1 because of how slow it felt in comparison.  I am the worst person I guess.
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Mar 31, 2015 03:11
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yoshesque posted:Oh yeah, Baal is a lady btw, duh, check out these demon titties: At least we don't have to listen to this Baal speak while spitting much all over the place. Edit: Wait, DMC4's is spelled Bael not Baal. That kinda dampens the similarities a bit... ArclightBorealis fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 03:51
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Bael has had a few froggy incarnations in Shin Megami Tensei as well.
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Mar 31, 2015 04:20
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Baal as a demon prince is typically depicted as having 3 forms; Man, cat and toad. Here's his picture from the Infernal Dictionary: 
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Mar 31, 2015 04:46
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Look, ya mentioned TIngle and- I'm sorry.  I'm so sorry.
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Mar 31, 2015 05:40
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Don't apologize. Never apologize for Art. Or Tingle. I'm also sad that yoshesque is so down on this game. I enjoyed it way more than Bayonettta 1, but that's almost entirely down to the fact that B1 was ruined for me by the midcutscene QTEs (insta-death or otherwise) and the endless, boring slogs of motorcycle/missile riding.
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Mar 31, 2015 06:17
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yoshesque posted:Example here, or at 16:30 if that didn't work. That's a reference to Akuma's move, Shun Goku Satsu isn't it? I assume people got mad because he's smoking and lying down like that while Bayo/Jeanne are also lying on the floor, implying something sexual?
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Mar 31, 2015 06:22
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I'm glad Yoshesque mentioned that angel deaths aren't as brutal, because I think that's one of the things that really turned me off the first game, where the deaths were so brutal even outside the torture attacks that I started feeling kind of bad for the angels, and Bayonetta's much glibber attitude just made her feel kind of sadistic to me; more that the son of a bitch Alfheims (but less than the QTE's or instant death setpieces) that really put a damper in the game for me. I mean Dante loves toying with and killing demons, but in cutscenes he always takes them out in a second instead of reveling in their suffering. I know it's super weird to feel for inhuman genocidal monsters, but goddamn if Bayo 1 didn't get downright vicious at times.
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Mar 31, 2015 06:24
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Veloxyll posted:So is there the 8 hour challenge mode in Bayonetta 2? or was that removed? It's been changed in Bayonetta 2 for the better, I think. Not quite 8 hours, but still five stages of pain. Sindai posted:What techniques did they remove from Bayonetta 1? As far as I could tell the game has pretty much everything the first did, aside from some weapon-specific things. A lot of the advanced dodge offset techniques were removed (taunt, crow, accessory in some capacity). No idea why they chose to do this, it's not like most players knew about these to begin with. On the flip side, Umbran spear offset is amazing now. Weapon-specific punish attacks don't exist any more. No launcher -> punish/ragdoll attack on the basic mooks. A general lack of different ways to kill enemies/use enemies to kill other enemies. Bayonetta 2 pared down the number of ways Bayonetta could interact with enemies, and while they're still there in 2, they're not nearly as useful. For instance, if you manage to dizzy a Cachet/Compassion you can execute a 'Ride' QTE on them, but as far as I can tell this doesn't actually do anything useful and in fact impedes your ability to get Pure Platinum due to time restrictions. It's also really difficult to trigger because those enemies die so quickly so I don't know why it's even there. Camel Pimp posted:Look, ya mentioned TIngle and- Don't be sorry, this is amazing  Rumrusher on Twitter also sent me this gem: quote:Watched the first 2 updates started drawing fanart then slowly shifted into this...Sorry.
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Mar 31, 2015 06:28
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yoshesque posted:Rumrusher on Twitter also sent me this gem: THE DREAM IS COLLAPSING Rumrusher's art has always been amazing. This appeals to my sense of "one day I will murder Tingle" just fine. Thank you!
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Mar 31, 2015 07:13
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Noper Q posted:I'm also sad that yoshesque is so down on this game. I enjoyed it way more than Bayonettta 1, but that's almost entirely down to the fact that B1 was ruined for me by the midcutscene QTEs (insta-death or otherwise) and the endless, boring slogs of motorcycle/missile riding. I'm not sure entirely what it is but something about Bayonetta 2 just clicked more with me than Bayonetta 1. Something about queuing attacks in Bayo 2 is just way more intuitive to me, like I can release and press the attack button at the beginning of really long attacks and Bayonetta would do the next attack no problem whereas in the first game if I don't hit the button at the last couple frames of an attack she's just gonna stand there and do gently caress-all. Dodge-Offset also seems easier in Bayonetta 2, probably related to that same attack-queuing. Also since Pure Platinum runs are a pipe dream for me I had no problem ignoring bad ranks on time and just quad-wielding swords and using Torture Attacks instead of Umbran Climax. Seems like Pure Platinum runs hurt this game more than anything, but then I never had fun going for max ranks to begin with and even going for a Platinum run in the first game to unlock Jeanne was a chore for me.
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Mar 31, 2015 09:43
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Based on the discussion it seems like Bayonetta 2 is less, for lack of a better word, 'hardcore' than Bayonetta 1 so the people who were super into Bayo 1 and nailing Pure Platinum runs through the whole game with their frame cancels and whatnot find Bayo 2 to be easier and more simplistic in play style with less options, whereas the people who found Bayo 1 to be a bit impenetrable and tricky find Bayo 2 fits them much better because it is, frankly, easier to just play. Bayo 2 also appears to be excessively strict about Pure Platinum requirements so people going for that notice all the sanded corners whereas the people just playing through the game who don't really care what rank they get do not.
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Mar 31, 2015 09:56
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Neruz posted:Based on the discussion it seems like Bayonetta 2 is less, for lack of a better word, 'hardcore' than Bayonetta 1 so the people who were super into Bayo 1 and nailing Pure Platinum runs through the whole game with their frame cancels and whatnot find Bayo 2 to be easier and more simplistic in play style with less options, whereas the people who found Bayo 1 to be a bit impenetrable and tricky find Bayo 2 fits them much better because it is, frankly, easier to just play. Pretty much. Though, as mentioned earlier, Bayo2 is very forgiving when it comes to letting you retry for ranks (except when it suddenly isn't (surprise!)) so for the most part it's not very unforgiving in the end.
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Mar 31, 2015 10:35
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Fedule posted:Pretty much. Though, as mentioned earlier, Bayo2 is very forgiving when it comes to letting you retry for ranks (except when it suddenly isn't (surprise!)) so for the most part it's not very unforgiving in the end. Woah, that star's new. I really wish the forums had a way of letting you see who was mod of subforums, not just the main ones.
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Mar 31, 2015 10:45
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Neruz posted:Based on the discussion it seems like Bayonetta 2 is less, for lack of a better word, 'hardcore' than Bayonetta 1 so the people who were super into Bayo 1 and nailing Pure Platinum runs through the whole game with their frame cancels and whatnot find Bayo 2 to be easier and more simplistic in play style with less options, whereas the people who found Bayo 1 to be a bit impenetrable and tricky find Bayo 2 fits them much better because it is, frankly, easier to just play. It's not as simple as being 'less hardcore', it's about a lack of depth. There's no problem with Bayo 2 as it is, but there's no reason for PG to have removed a lot of the techniques that made the combat in Bayo 1 deeper. There's going to be a lot less 'oh, I didn't know you could do that' moments in this LP because this game is incredly shallow. Bayo 2 improved the base game, making it much more approachable for players, but completely failed to add anything new to make the combat more than just 'mash buttons, hit the Umbran Climax button, win'. Honestly, if they had kept the combat system the same as it was in Bayo 1 but made all the changes that gave a lot of you the sense that 'I prefer Bayo 2 over Bayo 1' (and also balanced Umbran Climax better, holy poo poo) then I would've been fine with this game. Bayo 2 is honestly a bit of an odd duck in the PG lineup. Before Bayo 2, most of their games could be enjoyed at a 'casual' and at a 'hardcore' level at the same time. In Revengeance you could just run through slicing up enemies and grabbing their gatorade spines and you'd have fun, but dig a little deeper and you had blade cancelling and a rudimentary dodge offset. Wonderful 101 was the same - you could just play the game using your basic Unite morphs and dodge and block. Go a little deeper and again you have cancels, dodge offset, hero counter, ukemi and god knows what else I missed. Bayo 2 removes any incentive to play skillfully. It practically slaps your hand away when you try things like a Gaze of Despair run, because of the game's reliance on Witch Time and changes in enemy tells. There's no need to use the parry accessory because using it doesn't give you any advantages over just dodging the attack normally. This game punishes you for trying to play the game a little differently than the aforementioned 'mash buttons, hit the Umbran Climax button, win' formula, because PG decided that they would only cater to one kind of player and not the other. Understand that my disappointment is from the fact that Bayonetta 1 was a perfect balance between 'casual' and 'hardcore' (minus the instakill QTEs and the ridiculously long space harrier segments), and allowed you to define your own style of playing the game. For me, Bayonetta 2 failed to live up to its successor, because it only looked at one aspect of the game, and not the other, and can only be played to Pure Platinum standards if you don't deviate from the formula. And frankly, coming from Bayonetta 1 this game is like a wet fart. A very pretty, well polished fart, for sure.
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Mar 31, 2015 11:45
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I guess we're using different dictionaries because what you just described is exactly what I would call 'less hardcore' in a video game.
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Mar 31, 2015 11:48
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yoshesque posted:It's not as simple as being 'less hardcore', it's about a lack of depth. Neruz posted:I guess we're using different dictionaries because what you just described is exactly what I would call 'less hardcore' in a video game. It's also less hardcore because Bayo's not bloodily eviscerating all the angels all the time too. 'Less Hardcore' covers a lot of things.
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Mar 31, 2015 12:06
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The mallet accessory is a dumb addition. Umbran Climax completely removes the need to do any torture attacks in the game so the new accessory feels like they just wanted to add something to the accessory line.
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Mar 31, 2015 13:51
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Its probably there to give you a reason to use torture attacks instead of Umbran Climax; mo moneh.
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Mar 31, 2015 13:54
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Neruz posted:Its probably there to give you a reason to use torture attacks instead of Umbran Climax; mo moneh.
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Mar 31, 2015 14:01
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So it's a bad reason. Doesn't surprise me, it looks like a lot less attention was paid to the finer points of gameplay in this game.
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Mar 31, 2015 14:04
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I'm using the Mallet because I never actively used any accessory in 1 and I still can't be bothered to try any in this game except for this passive one.
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Mar 31, 2015 14:09
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yoshesque posted:A lot of the advanced dodge offset techniques were removed (taunt, crow, accessory in some capacity). No idea why they chose to do this, it's not like most players knew about these to begin with. On the flip side, Umbran spear offset is amazing now. Weapon-specific punish attacks don't exist any more. No launcher -> punish/ragdoll attack on the basic mooks. A general lack of different ways to kill enemies/use enemies to kill other enemies. Honestly I doubt they "chose" to remove most of that really. It's all such minor stuff they just missed duplicating it in the engine, whether it was ported or rewritten from scratch for the WiiU. (And just to be clear I don't think 2 has better gameplay. Umbran Climax alone was a huge mistake.) Sindai fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 15:58
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I don't know, considering how technical this kind of game is and how much it would have had to been playtested, I have a hard time believing they didn't know about advanced techniques like that.
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Mar 31, 2015 16:17
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Sir Ilpalazzo posted:I don't know, considering how technical this kind of game is and how much it would have had to been playtested, I have a hard time believing they didn't know about advanced techniques like that. But apparently they didn't really playtest it? An AI did?
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Mar 31, 2015 17:59
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There was regular playtesting. There's an entire section of the credits near the end that's just [Position] Product Testing over and over. The AI did some work, but there were people involved too.
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Mar 31, 2015 19:40
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I thought it was pretty neat how they coded what was basically a TAS script for the purpose of testing individual levels without external control. Testing is one of the most dreaded parts of QA in games development (mostly due to time and cost constraints) and it's neat that they reached mostly positive results from making that substitution.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:02
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Oh yeah, I totally forgot to link the thing I said I would: Creating an automated bug checker And I didn't say they didn't have people playtest, just that there wasn't enough of it. The way enemy AI/tells work in this game is enough proof of that.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:25
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I don't think using loren ipsum is lazy. I like it actually. They used it in Wonderful 101, but there it fit a little better since it was on newspaper. Idk.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:48
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Strangely my first time through the game i would always do fine on Damage and usually time (even doing Tortures and not resorting to UC's so much) but combo would almost always be poo poo(probably from having it drop?) so i don't know what that says about me as player.
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Apr 3, 2015 06:10
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