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I once heard reviewing Evangelion is difficult because while it's full of anime tropes and clichés, the reviewer needs to understand they're clichés BECAUSE of Evangelion. It's like groaning at the dolly zoom in Hitchcock's Vertigo because dolly zooms are cliché. (I've no idea if this true, it's just something I've heard said about Eva.) [edit]  
Ak Gara fucked around with this message at 10:19 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 10:14
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meh, I thought the Eva anime was...decent enough. I absolutely hate End of Evangelion though. CONGRATULATIONS is the only true end to the anime.
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May 25, 2015 10:25
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DrSunshine posted:I've recently finished watching this series for the first time (the first time I ever tried, I only got as far as episode 13 or so). I've written a review, it's a bit of a long post though, so I apologise in advance. Your use of language was over the top and ridiculous (e.g. the gauche sophistry line quoted a few posts back) but I sort of understood the points you were getting at, and I'm pretty dumb. Some of the comments were fair, but the lines like this DrSunshine posted:However, I can see why it became the object of obsession for an entire generation of anime watchers, since, at adolescence, they’re almost certainly the type to be taken by this kind of pseudo-mystical psychobabble. make you seem like a condescending  rear end in a top hat.Eva's reputation may be more famous than the series itself which I think is a shame because it causes many new viewers to watch it so critically they miss out on the cool stuff. I really like the art style, imagery, sound, the supernatural story and some of the themes it uses. For me it didn't have to come with some deep philosophical revelation. It's not perfect, but its still one of my favourite series. Doesn't mean I should be looked down on for it. Epi Lepi posted:Why is is that spergs always have to write loving thesis papers whenever they review something? Is it just when they end up liking something less than everyone else seems to so they feel they have to prove their opinion is the correct one? gently caress, no one gives a poo poo what you think, like what you like, dislike what you dislike, there's never a need to write something as long and pretentious as that garbage. gently caress you
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May 25, 2015 11:38
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The curse of Eva is a real thing and present in this thread.
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May 25, 2015 12:24
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Epi Lepi posted:Why is is that spergs always have to write loving thesis papers whenever they review something? Probably because it is a lot more efficient at communicating their opinions than "Eva is kinda meh." The latter is a boring statement that is nearly impossible to actually engage with in a meaningful fashion. The loving thesis itself at least attempts to show where the opinions came from, provides some hooks for discussion and entertaining internet flamewars, and distributes more points for people to either agree or disagree with. v  vAlso despite some excessive purpleness, it is practically a snappy one-liner as far as spergy Eva reviews tend to go.
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May 25, 2015 12:34
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I feel like Eva has gone through a bit of a renaissance, in no small part I'm sure thanks to the Rebuild films. It used to be you couldn't really discuss it anywhere because everyone was sick of it (stone age ADTRW had rules to the effect of "No Evangelion Threads"), but as time has gone on people started to stop caring about it being overrated or not and just looked at it critically for what it was. Some people can and will still not like it which is fine, but overall it's been so much more interesting to talk about Eva now than it was 15 years ago or whenever it was when I first saw it.
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May 25, 2015 12:40
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dotJPG posted:Eva's reputation may be more famous than the series itself which I think is a shame because it causes many new viewers to watch it so critically they miss out on the cool stuff. I really like the art style, imagery, sound, the supernatural story and some of the themes it uses. For me it didn't have to come with some deep philosophical revelation. It's not perfect, but its still one of my favourite series. Doesn't mean I should be looked down on for it. One thing that I feel rarely gets enough credit is all the monster of the week stuff in the first half. It's all so well done and they did a fine job at making plenty of unique fights. Compare it to its contemporaries which would have throwaway monsters and they'd be hella formulaic about it, even down to reusing stock footage for attacks.
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May 25, 2015 13:16
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Srice posted:One thing that I feel rarely gets enough credit is all the monster of the week stuff in the first half. It's all so well done and they did a fine job at making plenty of unique fights. I really liked all the Monster-of-the-Week stuff too. Actually, the show was pretty decent and seemed to be making sense up till around episode 22 or 23 or so. I enjoyed the flashback episode where it showed all the researchers and everyone else ten years ago, and was looking forward to seeing them tie off all the plotlines in the subsequent ones. dotJPG posted:Your use of language was over the top and ridiculous (e.g. the gauche sophistry line quoted a few posts back) but I sort of understood the points you were getting at, and I'm pretty dumb. Some of the comments were fair, but the lines like this Okay, fair enough. It was pretty over the top. I guess I could've just written one sentence, which would be that I didn't really understand the plot and I didn't like how the characterization was done, and I found it really hard to relate to the characters. Maybe it's because I don't have much experience with emotional trauma and others, who can relate, do. But I just didn't like how it was shown in the show, where basically the characters just talk about what's wrong with them, rather than it being presented to us through their actions when they interact with each other. And when they do, they kind of beat at the same point over and over again. That's one of the big problems, and it's not just unique to EVA: too much telling, not enough showing.
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 14:04
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I identify with a lot of the main characters because when they talk about or act out how they are feeling I realize that I do the same thing. That's why I like evangelion, because it's a piece of art that I can see myself in, so I will probably never run out of things to love about it.
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May 25, 2015 14:05
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SHISHKABOB posted:I identify with a lot of the main characters because when they talk about or act out how they are feeling I realize that I do the same thing. That's why I like evangelion, because it's a piece of art that I can see myself in, so I will probably never run out of things to love about it. The way I identify with the show changes as I get older, but it never goes away. Evangelion depicts and examines some of our most base human fears and insecurities in a way that not many other TV shows have ever managed to do. Who doesn't sometimes struggle with putting up walls with people? Or have days where they feel alienated? Who isn't afraid to be vulnerable to others? Or wonder if they are worthy of love, or if their love has any worth? These are the things at the heart of Evangelion. The religious symbolism and monster of the week stuff is all huge fun, and great to deconstruct. But the reason I've watched this series a few times over a decade is because I can still empathize with what the characters grapple with. Evangelion is a personal journey on a particularly grand stage.
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May 25, 2015 14:38
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DrSunshine posted:I really liked all the Monster-of-the-Week stuff too. Actually, the show was pretty decent and seemed to be making sense up till around episode 22 or 23 or so. I enjoyed the flashback episode where it showed all the researchers and everyone else ten years ago, and was looking forward to seeing them tie off all the plotlines in the subsequent ones. Makes sense. It seemed more like a review of EoE rather than the whole series and EoE. So, didn't the pseudo-philosophising and poor characterisation put you off before then? Seems more like you were pissed off with the ending of the series/film. Which is fair enough, I think they do drop the ball occasionally there - for instance, nothing happens to Unit-01 after episode 20. On the other hand eliding the plot so thoroughly was a deliberate and interesting decision. On the other hand I'm not sure you understood everyone's motivations as clearly as you could. For instance when Misato was telling Shinji the secrets in the car, the obvious thought to me is that she thought all this stuff she learned from Kaji might just be of some help to him, so she should tell him. And "angels are humans that rejected human form" pretty obviously means the angels are sentient and relatable to as humans, neither monsters nor superhuman. Which is, thematically, pretty relevant.
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May 25, 2015 15:34
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House Louse posted:Makes sense. It seemed more like a review of EoE rather than the whole series and EoE. So, didn't the pseudo-philosophising and poor characterisation put you off before then? I think that's mostly because it could be elided because it didn't really take up as much screentime. The ending of it all kind of brought it all to the forefront because, ostensibly, it was supposed to show what the whole thing was about. So, when they shine a light on it and make me actually consider the philosophy and the characterization, and it turns out there's not all that much there and it doesn't really go anywhere with it all, that kind of spoils the magic a bit. I guess what I mean is that what I look for in character-oriented fiction is clear character arcs. Start off with a character. What is he or she trying to do? Then ask why she's doing whatever it is she's doing, then show how she changes and grows by showing how she reacts to events and how she interacts with other characters. A good example -- and one that the series seems to be referencing at times -- is Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, one of my all-time favorite stories. I think that one of the strongest character arcs in the story is Kushana's, where she starts off as a vengeful warrior archetype and develops into a kind of protector or mother-like figure. She softens and alters her original vengeful course through her experiences during the war. That's a good character arc, because it shows how she changes over the story. I think this contrasts with the characters in EVA, where although we learn more about them through exposition, they don't actually change or grow very much, until the end where the changes happen in a revelatory kind of way through some kind of personal monologue -- almost like an individualized Deus Ex Machina.
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May 25, 2015 16:06
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lol
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May 25, 2015 16:30
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I will fully recommend anyone who didn't like Eva, and especially if they didn't like EoE, to read Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's manga. http://www.viz.com/manga/print/neon-genesis-evangelion I definitely came away preferring it to the anime. Not in all respects but it did fix a lot of the things I hated most about the anime, such as End of Evangelion.
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May 25, 2015 16:37
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End of Eva is something that I think grows on you. I didn't like it very much when I first saw it but as the years went on I grew to gradually like it more and more.
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May 25, 2015 16:48
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DrSunshine posted:A good example -- and one that the series seems to be referencing at times -- is Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, one of my all-time favorite stories. I think that one of the strongest character arcs in the story is Kushana's, where she starts off as a vengeful warrior archetype and develops into a kind of protector or mother-like figure. She softens and alters her original vengeful course through her experiences during the war. That's a good character arc, because it shows how she changes over the story. I think this contrasts with the characters in EVA, where although we learn more about them through exposition, they don't actually change or grow very much, until the end where the changes happen in a revelatory kind of way through some kind of personal monologue -- almost like an individualized Deus Ex Machina. I have no idea if you know this or not, but one of Hideaki Anno's(Evangelion's director) was animating the god warrior sequence in the Nausicaa movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRLO-w3nX-4 He even did a recent live action short also featuring the god warriors! https://vimeo.com/64987176 Anno and Miyazaki are friends as well, there was even (probably just wishful) talk about Anno being tapped to do a series adapting the entire Nausicaa manga...or was it a sequel of sorts? In any case probably won't happen. This of course has nothing to do with why Eva did or didn't blow you away, but it's cool nonetheless.
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May 25, 2015 16:52
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DrSunshine posted:I think that's mostly because it could be elided because it didn't really take up as much screentime. The ending of it all kind of brought it all to the forefront because, ostensibly, it was supposed to show what the whole thing was about. So, when they shine a light on it and make me actually consider the philosophy and the characterization, and it turns out there's not all that much there and it doesn't really go anywhere with it all, that kind of spoils the magic a bit. Not really. The thing about characters in Eva is that they have inverted arcs. Take for example, Shinji. Shinji starts off being a withdrawn depressed kid. About halfway through the series, he's come out of his shell and appears to be growing into a heroic young man. However, as the series progresses, events transpire that break him back down. He just doesn't go from low to high like so many people expect with an arc. He goes from low to high and then to low again - but maybe, just maybe, he can get back up and live again. A character's arc doesn't need to just be from A to B because a character's development depends entirely on the story they're in. When you say the characters in Eva don't have arcs, it makes me think that someone should demonstrate to you what a character without an arc actually looks like because the characters in Eva have arcs - but they're more like negative parabolas. Much like Ak Gara said, Evangelion was hugely influential and it is two decades old, it's going to seem pretty poor when you come to it with a contemporary viewpoint without acknowledging that. I also think you're correct when you say you don't get it because you haven't had much experience with emotional trauma. See, that's something I've found with showing Eva to people - if they 'get' half the things that are eating Shinji up then they'll love the show. However, if they never had much experience with, well, being Shinji, they're more likely to dismiss the show. As a guy who was a withdrawn, depressed fifteen year old going through a bitter divorce when he first saw Eva, it's really hard to mention, without sounding melodramatic and weird, just how much of an effect the show had on me. Of course, I also think your 'review' is pretty poor for a few reasons because a statement like: quote:This revelation, by the way, is given to us as Major Katsuragi drives Shinji to the base which she is quite aware is under attack, and is headed towards certain death, rendering abstract considerations such as the origins of their supposed enemies (heretofore the entire motivation for the show) completely irrelevant. Isn't a review. It's just... what happened. Yes, the SEELE attack makes that 'big question' completely irrelevant. Yes, abstract considerations take a backseat when you're dealing with an apocalyptic assault on your base and then an actual, literal apocalypse. I'm going to borrow a page from SMG and just say 'Yes, but what does that mean?' I mean, the countless people involved in NGE didn't just stumble into the animation room and throw "Lovecraftian mysticism", "erotic imagery" and "beautiful, surreal imagery" onto the page. There's also never been a good, interesting review that's come from condescending cynicism. I could distill that review down to 'I don't like it, none of it makes sense, nerds are idiots,6/10' and lose absolutely nothing. If you're going to use that many words, use those words to say something interesting about a text. also what the gently caress how do you write that many words and say nothing remotely positive about a work beyond 'it had some nice animation and images' and then give it a 6/10 which is, y'know, an above average mark
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May 25, 2015 16:52
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NikkolasKing posted:I will fully recommend anyone who didn't like Eva, and especially if they didn't like EoE, to read Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's manga. The manga is terrible, don't listen to him.
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May 25, 2015 17:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:The manga is terrible, don't listen to him. I haven't read it myself yet, but everything I've heard about it makes it sound like Sadamoto went "Hey let's take out all of the avant-garde, metafictional, and challenging aspects of the anime and make it a standard mecha story!" after a while.
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May 25, 2015 17:48
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Foul Ole Ron posted:The curse of Eva is a real thing and present in this thread.
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May 25, 2015 17:49
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MonsieurChoc posted:The manga is terrible, don't listen to him. The manga is for people who are confused by subtlety and wish that Shinji would 'man up'.
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May 25, 2015 17:53
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Raxivace posted:I haven't read it myself yet, but everything I've heard about it makes it sound like Sadamoto went "Hey let's take out all of the avant-garde, metafictional, and challenging aspects of the anime and make it a standard mecha story!" after a while. Pretty much. The Kaworu arc is the example I keep using, as it feels like Sadamoto went "Ewww, gross!" and made sure to remind us multiple times that Shinji was not gay. It's weird.
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May 25, 2015 17:54
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Sadamoto has a lot of interesting thoughts on how the manga differs from the anime but I think this sums it up: Eva is such a personal story, and Shinji in particular is such a personal character, that of course things are going to turn out different. Sadamoto is not Anno and if he wrote Shinji like in the anime, it would come out forced and unrealistic because that isn't the kind of hero Sadamoto empathizes with. The basic plot outline between anime and manga is the same but the details are different. Stuff like Toji dying for example, or Manga Kaji having a backstory, or Manga Kaworu's characterization being entirely different. All these details are well done alterations that change the story without really changing it, if you know what I mean. If the manga was a 1:1 copy of the anime, that would be stupid and pointless. Personally I have no problem with Manga Shinji having anger issues. He's like his dad. I think Rei is the real MVP of the manga due in no small part to Sadamoto's self-admitted favoritism. She is much more obviously independent and "human" earlier on. One of my favorite details in the manga is we actually learn what the gently caress Shinji was doing before the series. I liked all the backstory with his aunt and uncle. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:05 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 18:00
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isnt sadamoto a huge reifag? thats reason enough to not read it
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May 25, 2015 18:17
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The manga's ending is such a waste of time that it retroactively ruins the whole manga run. "Hi I'm going to take 20 years to reimagine this series, but now I don't feel like actually competing with EoE *fart* the end!!! :-)" And EoE is a loving masterpiece. You feel SOMETHING by the end of it, and what that feeling is tends to change over time the more you think about it.
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May 25, 2015 18:42
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Started reading the manga and i don't just get it. So Shinji is supposed top be this depressed 14-year old kid with a bunch of issues but at the same time he really is a fierce warrior who can take a beating and just ram monsters in his mech? He doesn't seem to care about anything but at the same time he is super cabable. Why is this series so popular? I don't know what i think about it yet but it seem sketchy.
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May 25, 2015 18:53
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The manga caters to the exact kind of otaku mindset that gets mad as gently caress at TV shinji for complaining because if they were piloting an Eva they wouldn't whine and they would kick angel rear end and save the day and they would totes put asuka in her place and gently caress bitches and and and
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May 25, 2015 19:18
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mr. stefan posted:The manga caters to the exact kind of otaku mindset that gets mad as gently caress at TV shinji for complaining because if they were piloting an Eva they wouldn't whine and they would kick angel rear end and save the day and they would totes put asuka in her place and gently caress bitches and and and I watched the anime a bit as a teen but don't remember jack about it. I do remember Shinji complaining a lot but what did he complain about? I remember him being super depressed and melacholy about daddy issues and such but how come he is so non-chalant about fighting life-or-death battles? I find it curious that the problem with piloting Eva is that his father seems him as a means to an end rather than a son and not the fact that he is a depressed 14-year-old boy who has to fight to the death and he should be scared out of his mind. So where is this going? The setting seems like a growing-up story where boy meets adversity and grows to become a man but it's not gonna be that, is it?
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May 25, 2015 19:30
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instead of reading the manga, you should watch the anime
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May 25, 2015 19:32
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Manga Shinji and Anime Shinji essentially go through the same arc. They both start off as very closed off from their peers because they've never really known affection. Prolonged contact with people like Asuka, Toji, Rei and Misato helps cracks Shinji's shell. Then all those "support pillars" I guess you could call them get knocked the gently caress down and Shinji winds up a horrible misanthrope. At this critical point in his life he's also placed in charge of the future of mankind. That is the rough character outline of Shinji Ikari. There are plenty of finer details but that's the gist of it. Anybody who tries to say Manga Shinji is "badass" or that Sadamoto presented him that way didn't read the manga or is horribly misremembering things. Shinji is the same ball of angst that he always was, he just deals with it differently. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:38 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 19:34
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instead of watching the anime, you should go outside and hang out with the people you love
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May 25, 2015 19:46
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NikkolasKing posted:Anybody who tries to say Manga Shinji is "badass" or that Sadamoto presented him that way didn't read the manga or is horribly misremembering things. Shinji is the same ball of angst that he always was, he just deals with it differently. The dude seems very bad-rear end though, if this was done realistically the only thing Shinji could think about would be the actual battles with the angels. It kind of seems to be anime depression and not "real" depression.
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May 25, 2015 19:46
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ManOfTheYear posted:
A valid reading of Eva it's that its the work of a man who grew up consuming these stories and wishing to make his own, and then realizing halfway through that the concept is inherently flawed and incompatible with human behavior.
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May 25, 2015 19:50
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mr. stefan posted:A valid reading of Eva it's that its the work of a man who grew up consuming these stories and wishing to make his own, and then realizing halfway through that the concept is inherently flawed and incompatible with human behavior. Well this I'll believe in. Are there any other series that are better with more or less the same concept?
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May 25, 2015 20:07
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NikkolasKing posted:Eva is such a personal story, and Shinji in particular is such a personal character, that of course things are going to turn out different. Sadamoto is not Anno and if he wrote Shinji like in the anime, it would come out forced and unrealistic because that isn't the kind of hero Sadamoto empathizes with. Right. Sadamoto tries to write a character he empathizes with but not one he is emotional about, which is why you get that mess of an ending. He certainly attempts to tell an Evangelion story but he's unwilling to put any bite into the characters and it shows. Sadamoto tells a more generic story with more generic characters. Evangelion is a personal story and Sadamoto's Evangelion isn't. Maybe it would have been if it had been done in a timely manner but by the time it finished it was just him telling the Evangelion story but with less emotion. The manga really suffers for lasting so long it could become part of the Evangelion machine instead of being its own story. It's just depressing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 20:19
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You once made a post that Eva might not have ever been such a success if its development had been normal. That wasn't exactly what you said of course but I hope you remember saying more or less that. I guess my problem is I can't look passed the fact the whole thing looks and feels like a giant mess. The first half and second half of Eva barely having anything in common, the needlessly obtuse way the anime handles the plot, none of this adds to my experience at all. I came away feeling like the first...I dunno, 13 episodes or so were a huge waste of time. Maybe the manga is more "generic" because it feels like an actual story with a proper beginning, middle and end. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 20:43
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Edit :nope
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May 25, 2015 21:05
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Shinji is nonchalant towards piloting the eva because piloting the eva is a metaphor for "living life". Around the middle of the series Shinji declares that he pilots his eva LIVES, his RAISON D'ENTRE or whatever is for the praise of his father. Suddenly he has a reason for life and he's happy and woo and there are other things and then he realizes that THATS hosed. And I'm busy and can't think about this right now but that's how I feel about life: there's no loving point sometimes. Let me lie in bed. Don't touch me. Going through the motions. Blah blah blah. But maybe there's something out there. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 21:55 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 21:38
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NikkolasKing posted:You once made a post that Eva might not have ever been such a success if its development had been normal. That wasn't exactly what you said of course but I hope you remember saying more or less that. The anime worked because as Shinji descends deeper and deeper into his own depres shell, the show becomes just as erratic and borderline nuts as he is by that point. Was this done intentionally? Given the budget issues, I doubt that was the original plan. But it all works out to me. Evangelion reminds me a lot of the Drakengard video game, in that people relish and enjoy it for its oddities more than the rest of it. And really, it's true: Eva is at its most entertaining when it's bizarre. And as far as the story complaint about beginning middle and end, that's pretty much doodoo. Eva has all of those, it's more a matter of if you enjoyed it. Clearly ya didn't.
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May 25, 2015 22:28
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Well thread if there is something I have learned about about Evangelion, its that it gives each viewer something different (even if its irrational hatred). Personally I tag it as thus: Evangelion: or how a japanese cartoon led to me becoming a psychotherapist.
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May 25, 2015 22:38
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