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The rocks aren't the only things that are so hosed up.
Butt Ghost fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 20:52
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So I finished the series, and, yeah. Yeah. I can see how people would have really hated it at the time. The reason I decided to skip the earlier episodes is that I felt like I had seen this before. I saw a few in the beginning and felt like peak anime was there.
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May 27, 2015 23:13
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it's all been downhill since then, yes.  e: tumbling down even
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May 27, 2015 23:30
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I managed to grab the platinum DVDs for about $20 in a bargain bin about 5 years back. That was pretty sweet.
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May 27, 2015 23:33
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Sakurazuka posted:If you mean the TV series, no people are just talking about the Japanese release. Funimation put it back up for pre-order on their site and Amazon a couple of months ago. Notably it doesn't have a release date with it. I'm guessing we'll see it a mere two years late in winter 2016.
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May 28, 2015 04:00
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So I'm talking to a guy online that is complaining about the Rebuilds being "edgy fanfiction". Is there any point in continuing to discuss this with him?
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May 28, 2015 14:05
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No? Like I dunno what his definition of 'edgy' but there's nothing in the Rebuilds really that compares to some of the stuff you could label as edgy in EoE if you were an idiot.
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May 28, 2015 14:19
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Raxivace posted:So I'm talking to a guy online that is complaining about the Rebuilds being "edgy fanfiction". 1 and 2 no, 3 definitely strays into that territory though. 3.0 is a visual feast with some of the best animation I've seen, but it's so far out of synch with the other movies that it loses coherence. There's too many things thrown in without explanation that it starts telling it's story exclusively through metaphor, and if you're looking for a continuation of the (relatively) straightforward plot of 1 and 2 you'll be completely lost. I'm hoping the final movie will make 3.0 look better in retrospect but who knows, Anno just wants to do weird poo poo for the sake of doing weird poo poo.
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May 28, 2015 15:57
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3.0 isn't remotely edgy fanfiction, except in terms of how Evangelion itself is full of anger and loathing (including tons self-loathing). Like honestly, 2.0 bordered into the fanfiction territory when Shinji took control of his Evangelion and got godlike powers and a rocket punch and Asuka was replaced by a new character who could totally control he Eva's berserker mode and had glowy super-lines on her. Then the very ending and 3.0 recontextualized that into "haha, gently caress no, you thought we were going to do that unironically?" And I think that is what pisses certain segments of the fandom off because they did want Super Robot Wars Shinji where he totally gets over his problems and becomes a Gurren-Lagann character. That isn't to say everyone who is critical of 3.0 is like that but it seems to be one of the overriding ideas. People expected the Rebuilds to be the "fixed" version of Eva. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:02
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Actually I think what pisses certain segments off is that they were building up to something then decided halfway through to throw everything in the trash and go in an entirely different direction. EVA Mark 06 was made out to be something of significant importance, for example, with Gendo and Fuyutski making a special trip out to the moon to see it then it's relegated to a footnote in 3.0. 3.0 was just a pretty bad movie all up when you consider everything, it trades substance for style in a big way. They made a timeskip and added an airship because it was cool and the viewer is left trying to discern what is going on through subtext alone when you're sitting through pointless scenes like Gendo shutting down seele that add absolutely nothing.
Zahki fucked around with this message at 16:17 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:14
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I dunno 3 is like the first time they actually explained what is happening in the show. It had plenty of problems but I don't think it was overly ambiguous.
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May 28, 2015 16:17
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The feeling I got while watching 3.0 was that it seems to have been made with the intention that you watch it tandem with 4.0, there's just no trying to take it on it's own in comparison to the first two Rebuilds. The whole thing comes off as a mess in its own right but might end up really great when paired with 4.0
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May 28, 2015 16:18
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Zahki posted:Actually I think what pisses certain segments off is that they were building up to something then decided halfway through to throw everything in the trash and go in an entirely different direction. EVA Mark 06 was made out to be something of significant importance, for example, with Gendo and Fuyutski making a special trip out to the moon to see it then it's relegated to a footnote in 3.0. 3.0 was just a pretty bad movie all up when you consider everything, it trades substance for style in a big way. They made a timeskip and added an airship because it was cool and the viewer is left trying to discern what is going on through subtext alone when you're sitting through pointless scenes like Gendo shutting down seele that add absolutely nothing. No, all of that only matters if you're someone who cares more about continuity than themes. Evangelion 3.0 has plenty of subsistence. Mark 06 is important in that it shows up and spears Shinji. That is its plot importance. The only people who were convinced it was secretly Eva-01 from another timeline were people who cared more about arguing minutia than the actual substance of the work. Also I really don't get what you mean by 'going on through subtext alone." Eva 3.0 is really blunt. Characters explain what is going on in a fair amount of detail. The fact that you think the timeskip is "because it was cool" and not intentional is a bit silly. You may not like it plotwise or metatextually but it sure as hell wasn't random. RZApublican posted:The feeling I got while watching 3.0 was that it seems to have been made with the intention that you watch it tandem with 4.0, there's just no trying to take it on it's own in comparison to the first two Rebuilds. The whole thing comes off as a mess in its own right but might end up really great when paired with 4.0 I can't really agree with this. Eva 3.0 builds off Eva 2.0. If 3.0+1.0 never comes out I don't think you can't judge 3.0. You're left with an angry, bitter, unhappy message but the core theme is clear and coherent. 4.0 can certainly recontextualize the message but I don't think you can leave 3.0 being unaware of what it was trying to say. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:38 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:22
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ImpAtom posted:Also I really don't get what you mean by 'going on through subtext alone." Eva 3.0 is really blunt. Characters explain what is going on in a fair amount of detail. It's bad writing. Eva 3.0 is action scenes and clunky exposition the movie. It really feels like it's going through the motions. quote:it sure as hell wasn't random. It sure as hell didn't have a purpose either. I mean if you got something out of the movie, that's great but you can't criticise people who think it's a messy and unfocused movie becuase they 'care about continuity more than themes' and 'they want shinji to be an action hero!'. You can only make so many excuses for it just being badly executed. The movie was scrapped and rewritten halfway through it's production, the preview at the end of 2.0 shows something vastly different than the end product, I think it's fairly obvious that it suffered from a protracted production. It sounds like you're trying desperately to blame the shortcomings of the film on viewers who 'don't get it', I assure you, I get it, it's just whats there to get isn't very interesting or good. quote:The feeling I got while watching 3.0 was that it seems to have been made with the intention that you watch it tandem with 4.0, there's just no trying to take it on it's own in comparison to the first two Rebuilds. The whole thing comes off as a mess in its own right but might end up really great when paired with 4.0 Yeah, basically. 4.0 is the chance to redeem 3.0 in retrospect. We'll see if it can. Zahki fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:41
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Zahki posted:It sure as hell didn't have a purpose either. Sure it did. In the context of the film it forces a permanent and irreversible change. Shinji is thrust not just out of his safety zone but into one completely unfamiliar and unwelcome to him. It means that there is no returning to status quo. From a metatextual perspective: The time frame between the end of Eva 2.0 and Eva 3.0 was almost equal to the real-life time frame between the end of Evangelion and the release of 3.0. (If 3.0 hadn't been so slow to release it would have been identical.) The fact that Shinji is still the same age and same personality and lives in a blasted wasteland while frantically trying to recapture his past and undo his mistakes instead of moving on and becoming someone new is pretty goddamn unsubtle as a message. "Curse of Eva" isn't subtle and the producer and writer both used it back when Eva 1.0 was coming out to talk about how Evangelion has lingered over the anime market for years. It becoming literal text in Eva 3.0 isn't random, it's intentional-as-poo poo commentary. Zahki posted:, the preview at the end of 2.0 shows something vastly different than the end product, I'm not sure how you can't think that wasn't intentional. Literally every bit of advertising leading up to 3.0's release was misleading. The only scene they showed was the Asuka battle at the start, the one scene intentionally designed so you didn't realize that a massive time-skip had occurred. Again, they commented on some of this stuff back in Eva 1.0's release. I'm certain things moved around or changed during production but they knew what they were doing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:50 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:46
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3.0 in a single image: Ak Gara fucked around with this message at 17:15 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:01
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ImpAtom posted:I'm certain things moved around or changed during production but they knew what they were doing. That's a huge leap of faith, and I'm not sure the reverence you're showing to Anno is deserved considering he's not the type to make those long plans and generally changes his stories on a whim, he was still adding and removing plot points while he was making the last few episodes of the series. 3.0 to me seems like an obvious case of him deciding to head off in a completely different direction and given the stories of the rewrite and the drawn out production I think there's enough evidence to support that. You're obviously willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I still think 3.0 was a flop.
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May 28, 2015 17:03
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ImpAtom posted:People expected the Rebuilds to be the "fixed" version of Eva. Yeah, even this guy I've been talking to has said the only point of them was to be a "better" version of the TV series, and I think it's pretty clear just from a cursory analysis that simply "Rebuilding" Eva has not at all been the point. Some of us even began to think 2.0's ending wasn't supposed to be wish fulfillment/SRW stuff and that it was going to only lead to bad consequences before 3.0 came out, and when it was finally released it certainly made a lot of the point of the new movies much more clear.
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May 28, 2015 17:05
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This actually connects with a discussion that's going on in VoidBurger's Silent Hill 2 LP thread right now. Some people really want to approach literary criticism of video games and anime from a very logic-oriented view where finding continuity errors and breakdowns in logic is the goal and how you earn cred. Shows like Eva (and games like Silent Hill) aren't particularly interested in those sorts of things. They are symbolic works. It's probably overdoing it to compare them to free verse poetry, but it's a similar endeavor. The imagery and occurrences in Eva are there to convey different feelings, thoughts, and moods. That there's a somewhat cohesive narrative to carry you through it is cool, but Eva, and 3.0 especially, isn't necessarily about that. The narrative is just the structure to which the symbols are attached. 3.0 feels something like the slave-ship chapter in Beloved (OK, I know that's a massive overreach, but I can't think of a better comparison right now) in that it's really difficult to extract meaning from on its own, but the content around it (2.0, and hopefully 4.0 eventually) can provide more concrete narrative which we can then use to understand the emotional story that 3.0 is telling. 3.0 is ultimately about the feeling of isolation, and of being unable to fix your mistakes, and how often things that seem like an escape from these problems are really traps to pull you in further. The insanely overblown apocalyptic narrative surrounding this is meant to emphasize that for an individual caught in this mire of bad decisions and alienation, the struggle to escape can truly feel like a battle against the world. Shinji in this narrative is an avatar for the chronically depressed, for forever disenfranchised, for people whose mistakes have driven everyone away until they feel like they don't even know their friends and loved ones anymore (this last piece is what the timeskip accomplishes. Shinji hosed up so bad that everyone "disowned" him metaphorically, and when he surfaces from his funk just a little bit, he barely recognizes the world and the people who populate it look the same but behave in an entirely unfamiliar way). If you're trying to watch 3.0 and go "Aha, this Eva unit isn't as important as they pretended, and Kaworu's powers are inconsistent with previous depictions", you're missing the point. The movie takes you through the the feelings and experiences of a person who is just starting to try to claw their way out of a deep pit of depression and isolation. Give it another watch, but open yourself to the idea that it is poetry and not a hard sci-fi novel, and you might enjoy it a little more. And the gratuitous action scenes look super cool and have gorgeous animation, so there's that too.
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May 28, 2015 17:09
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My problem with 3.33 is that it doesn't have enough action scenes, there's like one at the beginning and one at the end and that's it. 
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May 28, 2015 17:11
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Zahki posted:That's a huge leap of faith, and I'm not sure the reverence you're showing to Anno is deserved considering he's not the type to make those long plans and generally changes his stories on a whim, he was still adding and removing plot points while he was making the last few episodes of the series. They have discussed it in interviews and they were discussing elements (without openly talking about the timeskip) back when Rebuild was announced. This is something they intended in some form or another from the very start. It really isn't subtle. It is an angry and frustrated movie that directly mirrors what Anno has been saying about the anime industry for years. You may not like it but it isn't the result of random flailing. LeftistMuslimObama posted:3.0 is ultimately about the feeling of isolation, and of being unable to fix your mistakes, and how often things that seem like an escape from these problems are really traps to pull you in further. The insanely overblown apocalyptic narrative surrounding this is meant to emphasize that for an individual caught in this mire of bad decisions and alienation, the struggle to escape can truly feel like a battle against the world. Shinji in this narrative is an avatar for the chronically depressed, for forever disenfranchised, for people whose mistakes have driven everyone away until they feel like they don't even know their friends and loved ones anymore (this last piece is what the timeskip accomplishes. Shinji hosed up so bad that everyone "disowned" him metaphorically, and when he surfaces from his funk just a little bit, he barely recognizes the world and the people who populate it look the same but behave in an entirely unfamiliar way). Pretty much this. The entire film is designed to put the viewer in Shinji's shoes. It is a weird film, an uncomfortable film and I'd certainly argue a flawed film, but not because it was randomly thrown together without thought. It's an extremely emotional film that is more concerned with that than it is about the minutia of how the setting works. (And that is true of Evangelion as a whole.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:15 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:13
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Also I thought the prevailing theory was that the stuff at the end of 2.22 was deliberately misleading and was stuff that supposedly happened during the time skip?
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May 28, 2015 17:15
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:And the gratuitous action scenes look super cool and have gorgeous animation, so there's that too. 100% agreement with this post, but even the action scenes inform us about changes in the characters. Seeing Asuka going from the attempts at graceful fighting in 2.0 to the more feral, beastlike fighting of 3.0 tells us a lot about how she's changed in 14 years. Sakurazuka posted:My problem with 3.33 is that it doesn't have enough action scenes, there's like one at the beginning and one at the end and that's it. I've always thought the main problems with 1.0 and 2.0 was that they really do feel like watching episodes of television shows stitched together, particularly with how suddenly Angels just come into those films somewhat haphazardly (Though I think 1.0 is better at this). Even EoE is literally structured as two episodes, with the film's credits separating them. Also, Death and Rebirth is Death and Rebirth. From what I can tell 3.0 is the first Evangelion movie to actually be written and structured as a feature film from the beginning. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 17:23 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 17:18
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Sakurazuka posted:Also I thought the prevailing theory was that the stuff at the end of 2.22 was deliberately misleading and was stuff that supposedly happened during the time skip? I vaguely recall a few hints about that stuff happening yah.
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May 28, 2015 17:21
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I don't particularly care for 3.0 but I don't think it's a confusing movie. It's fairly straightforward. I just don't think in the end it had all that much to say; it was a 5 minute dressing-down conversation on why Shinji is terrible stretched out to a whole film with the cracks filled in with flashy action sequences.
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May 28, 2015 17:34
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Raxivace posted:Some of us even began to think 2.0's ending wasn't supposed to be wish fulfillment/SRW stuff and that it was going to only lead to bad consequences before 3.0 came out, and when it was finally released it certainly made a lot of the point of the new movies much more clear. The cool thing about the internet is that everyone's cool and dumb Rebuilt Evangelion opinions are right here in the forum archive were everyone can read them!  The bad thing about the internet is that my dumb Evangelion opinions are right there on usenet where everyone can still read them. 
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May 28, 2015 17:36
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Nate RFB posted:I don't particularly care for 3.0 but I don't think it's a confusing movie. It's fairly straightforward. I just don't think in the end it had all that much to say; it was a 5 minute dressing-down conversation on why Shinji is terrible stretched out to a whole film with the cracks filled in with flashy action sequences. I don't think the message is "Shinji is terrible". It's about the difficulty of overcoming bad decisions. Shinji did a terrible thing, but not with a terrible motive, and yet everyone's willing to bury him for it anyway. 3.0 is Shinji trying to climb out of a pit he dug on accident, but everyone keeps pushing him back in to punish him even though he didn't mean to do it in the first place. It's a surreal, beautifully animated tour of the life of someone who has hit rock bottom without even knowing how they got there.
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May 28, 2015 17:37
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As for me I'm more annoyed at how the latest SRW handled Rebuild 3.0.
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May 28, 2015 17:40
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Pureauthor posted:As for me I'm more annoyed at how the latest SRW handled Rebuild 3.0. ...How did they handle it? That has to be an incredibly tough bit to adapt into a crossover.
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May 28, 2015 18:08
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3.0 was a disappointment, and just because there are some moments that make you think and go "hey this is nice" it doesn't make up for coming out of left field and never really explaining itself. I watched a movie last night that apparently was trying to make me feel isolated by having a boring plot, unlikeable characters and an overall poor script. Or maybe it just wasn't a good movie. The simplest answer usually veers closer to the truth. And while the fourth movie may make me dislike the third less, this ridiculous wait for the finale is not improving my overall thoughts on the movie.
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May 28, 2015 18:20
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Spiritus Nox posted:...How did they handle it? That has to be an incredibly tough bit to adapt into a crossover. You are indeed correct, and they handled it by having the entire plot take place offscreen.
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May 28, 2015 18:21
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Evan 3.0 is great because it has the amazing piano scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCx3vVK9MM
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May 28, 2015 18:41
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Remember the teaser that was just a minute or so of piano playing? Good times.
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May 28, 2015 18:49
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Sakurazuka posted:They're just teasers for the new range of Evangelion branded pianos. Those were good trailers. Probably one of the funnier moments in the old thread.
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May 28, 2015 18:58
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I swear to god this better be in 4.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQKY49cu2H0
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May 28, 2015 19:36
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Shinjobi posted:I watched a movie last night that apparently was trying to make me feel isolated by having a boring plot, unlikeable characters and an overall poor script. Or maybe it just wasn't a good movie. The simplest answer usually veers closer to the truth. This is what I'm talking about. You're trying to interact with it like it's a narrative instead of an expression. The plot is not the primary driver of the movie. If you're going in looking to be told a cool story, you're gonna be bored. It's fine if you don't like movies like that, but I don't think it's fair to call the script bad or say it's a bad movie because it doesn't suit your tastes. I bet you would hate Eraserhead too, but it's a drat good move, granted one with almost no plot and, since there's no dialogue, characters that you may very well find to be flat because you have to engage with them on a level other than what you're saying. Is this type of movie engaging to Eva's audience? Maybe not, but it seems pretty clear that Anno has a lot to critique about Eva's audience anyway so that is probably the point.
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May 28, 2015 20:29
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:This is what I'm talking about. You're trying to interact with it like it's a narrative instead of an expression. The plot is not the primary driver of the movie. If you're going in looking to be told a cool story, you're gonna be bored. It's fine if you don't like movies like that, but I don't think it's fair to call the script bad or say it's a bad movie because it doesn't suit your tastes. I bet you would hate Eraserhead too, but it's a drat good move, granted one with almost no plot and, since there's no dialogue, characters that you may very well find to be flat because you have to engage with them on a level other than what you're saying. The series had a plot, and while it went off the rails a few times it always got back on them. The 3rd movie didn't go off the rails, it started off of them and flailed around in the dark. I get what you're saying, I do, but if Anno took the Rebuild Project to do two standard stories and then delay the third forever in order to engage with his audience on another level, or what have you, he's a master class retard. The fourth movie HAS to snap things back into perspective, because that third movie's reception was so split (I can tell you now that anyone who's held out for the US release of the third movie is going to be let down hard) in its bizarre jump in story he's basically set himself up for hate mail all over aga-- oh god dammit this is all just an elaborate setup for EoE 2 in like...2056 or something. I have no problem with Anno wanting to do things different, and try something a little odder in his approach to writing stories. Just not in the middle of a project that's already taken twice the time it should have to make originally.
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May 28, 2015 22:18
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Shinjobi posted:The series had a plot, and while it went off the rails a few times it always got back on them. The 3rd movie didn't go off the rails, it started off of them and flailed around in the dark. I get what you're saying, I do, but if Anno took the Rebuild Project to do two standard stories and then delay the third forever in order to engage with his audience on another level, or what have you, he's a master class retard. The first two films are not standard stories. A good chunk of them, especially the second film, are entirely incoherent when not taken in the context of the original series. They specifically have character development and plot events which only make sense and are significant when taken as commentary or twists on the original show. A lot of fans tend to miss that the films all began that way, Eva 3.0 just ramps it up. The first two are more standard than the third one but they're absolutely not stand-alone when you're actually analyzing what the story is about or trying to say. Like from the very first film people were already speculating there would be a big twist involving the nature of the world because of the repetitive-but-different elements that intentionally play upon audience knowledge. The second film went way further in that. 3.0 continues it but it isn't just doing it as a in-world thing but as an out-of-world thing as well. It is both a plot thing and a metaplot thing. It's weird and probably self-indulgent and basically thoughts and feelings vomited onto the screen but that was true of the original show as well. (Down to Anno literally putting hate mail he got onscreen in EoE.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:31 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 22:27
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Shinjobi posted:The series had a plot, and while it went off the rails a few times it always got back on them. The 3rd movie didn't go off the rails, it started off of them and flailed around in the dark. I get what you're saying, I do, but if Anno took the Rebuild Project to do two standard stories and then delay the third forever in order to engage with his audience on another level, or what have you, he's a master class retard. The fourth movie HAS to snap things back into perspective, because that third movie's reception was so split (I can tell you now that anyone who's held out for the US release of the third movie is going to be let down hard) in its bizarre jump in story he's basically set himself up for hate mail all over aga-- STOP DOING YOUR ART IN MY ART
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May 28, 2015 22:30
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The third rebuild movie sucked
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May 28, 2015 22:39
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