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mr. mephistopheles posted:So will it even affect anything or is it just a symbolic gesture? Granted the budget cuts are going to be huge either way. This is apparently part of a big fight about how independent the university will be from the legislature. I'm not sure it's even symbolic so much as part of a list of things that they compromised on to allow the university to manage itself. Walker apparently wanted the university to be almost completely independent. Which seems fair enough, if you're not going to pay for it with state money you shouldn't have the state legislature making demands...
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May 31, 2015 07:03
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Ramadu posted:Honest question, what reason was tenure created? So that professors could teach what they believed without worrying about politics and money. Edit: If the professor had to worry about being politically incorrect, he or she would be in constant trouble. Tenure allowed professors to teach reality and not have to try and please anyone. Edit 2: Now most professors have to publish constantly and they spend more time on research and publishing then teaching. It is all hosed up. Pohl fucked around with this message at 07:15 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 07:09
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i am harry posted:Let us pause for a moment and remind ourselves in contrast what Mr. Rove has lost. Is it a "wait, there's signs of life" joke? e: http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4030612/biden-bidens-ashcroft-torture
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May 31, 2015 07:39
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Pohl posted:So that professors could teach what they believed without worrying about politics and money. Couldn't you achieve this without a literal lifetime guarantee? Tenure was a decent idea but I feel like there needs to be some way to push out older professors who aren't doing anything anymore. I don't know, my opinion is probably colored by the horror stories I heard from my mom when she was IG at a university. Someone pitch me on why the current tenure system is an unabashed good thing because it seems fairly mediocre to me. Abolishing it outright is a terrible idea since the university will lose all its best researchers to other universities but it could be adjusted or something. Relentlessboredomm fucked around with this message at 08:16 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 08:11
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Somebody from Wisconsin want to explain what the gently caress happened to their state? You used to be one of the good ones.Relentlessboredomm posted:Couldn't you achieve this without a literal lifetime guarantee? Tenure was a decent idea but I feel like there needs to be some way to push out older professors who aren't doing anything anymore. I don't know, my opinion is probably colored by the horror stories I heard from my mom when she was IG at a university. Someone pitch me on why the current tenure system is an unabashed good thing because it seems fairly mediocre to me. Abolishing it outright is a terrible idea since the university will lose all its best researchers to other universities but it could be adjusted or something. Nah, it's super important that professors who couldn't give less of a gently caress continue to teach the same class they've been teaching for the last 30 years the same way they always have.
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May 31, 2015 08:39
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As someone who left academia, lovely older professors are also part of the draw of the lifestyle. In academia, you make garbage pay and work stupid long hours for most of your career. The trade-off is that if you put in that time, you get fantastic job security and, after a while, fantastic hours. Removing things like tenure and benefits, coupled with longer and longer post-docs, and you just end up with a career path that promises hellish hours and lovely pay. Surprise! Talent doesn't want that and runs the gently caress away.
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May 31, 2015 08:48
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PostNouveau posted:Somebody from Wisconsin want to explain what the gently caress happened to their state? You used to be one of the good ones. Wisconsin's always been a swing state and this is really that the tea party won the last election by a marginal mandate and took the ball and ran with it as far as they can.
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May 31, 2015 08:52
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Couldn't you achieve this without a literal lifetime guarantee? Tenure was a decent idea but I feel like there needs to be some way to push out older professors who aren't doing anything anymore. I don't know, my opinion is probably colored by the horror stories I heard from my mom when she was IG at a university. Someone pitch me on why the current tenure system is an unabashed good thing because it seems fairly mediocre to me. Abolishing it outright is a terrible idea since the university will lose all its best researchers to other universities but it could be adjusted or something. I think I somehow didn't convey the severity of it. That is my fault. Without tenure professors will be afraid to teach reality and truth and will instead feel like they need to be polite. I don't want professors to be polite, I want them to be raging assholes. This isn't because I'm a raving Socialist, it is because I believe in truth. Tenure allowed Professors to have a voice, their own voice, which was and is really important. They need that protection. I will never forget one of my Sociology Professors railing about the Iraq war and then kicking a lumphead wanna be Marine out of class after 9/11. The kid deserved to get kicked out, because there were 30 other students there trying to learn and that kid insisted on derailing the entire class. The kid was an idiot and he was wrong. My Professor was right and like he told that kid; "I have studied this my entire adult life. I have a PHD in this..." I don't mean to make an appeal to authority, but it was really a lol moment in the classroom. I'm not even describing that correctly, because it was a magical moment. My Professor was way more eloquent than I am describing. Shbobdb posted:As someone who left academia, lovely older professors are also part of the draw of the lifestyle. In academia, you make garbage pay and work stupid long hours for most of your career. The trade-off is that if you put in that time, you get fantastic job security and, after a while, fantastic hours. Removing things like tenure and benefits, coupled with longer and longer post-docs, and you just end up with a career path that promises hellish hours and lovely pay. Surprise! Talent doesn't want that and runs the gently caress away. Just the political implications are terrifying. You taught something we don't agree with? We will flay you alive!!!! For the Record, Jesus didn't ride a dinosaur. Pohl fucked around with this message at 08:59 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 08:55
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Couldn't you achieve this without a literal lifetime guarantee? Tenure was a decent idea but I feel like there needs to be some way to push out older professors who aren't doing anything anymore. I don't know, my opinion is probably colored by the horror stories I heard from my mom when she was IG at a university. Someone pitch me on why the current tenure system is an unabashed good thing because it seems fairly mediocre to me. Abolishing it outright is a terrible idea since the university will lose all its best researchers to other universities but it could be adjusted or something. Just having your name attached to an older professor as an advisor or someone who is respectable in your field is prestigious to the university and to the graduate students working under him- especially if he or she is well published. That is usually more than enough to attract money.
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May 31, 2015 09:02
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Shbobdb posted:As someone who left academia, lovely older professors are also part of the draw of the lifestyle. In academia, you make garbage pay and work stupid long hours for most of your career. The trade-off is that if you put in that time, you get fantastic job security and, after a while, fantastic hours. Removing things like tenure and benefits, coupled with longer and longer post-docs, and you just end up with a career path that promises hellish hours and lovely pay. Surprise! Talent doesn't want that and runs the gently caress away. It sounds like tenure isn't needed as badly as decent working conditions across the board, but this is America so I suppose tenure is the best you'll ever get.
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May 31, 2015 09:10
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Job Truniht posted:Just having your name attached to an older professor as an advisor or someone who is respectable in your field is prestigious to the university and to the graduate students working under him- especially if he or she is well published. That is usually more than enough to attract money. Yeah, I'm really lucky and randomly got an advisor who is super well known and respected, and the doors it has opened for me are absolutely insane. At least a few times during the course of my graduate studies I've basically said "Hey boss, I'm looking for <regulatory thing>, any idea where I can find it? I've hit a brick wall on it" and he says "Oh yeah, the director of that agency is a really good friend, I've got a christmas card from them sitting on my desk, I'll give em a ring and I'm sure we can get our hands on it." It's crazy how much it helps to have someone around who's well established in your field - a solid 30-40 year career, for someone who networks well, means connections EVERYWHERE.
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May 31, 2015 09:40
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Tenure also gives the faculty some ability to stand up to the administration (and anyone who has ever set foot in a university knows why this is important). Students who bitch about tenure are idiots. They're usually also me-first babies who are incensed at the idea that not every single thing at the university revolves around them.
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May 31, 2015 09:58
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Tenure is a different thing than the old professor who has been there forever. Age discrimination less have pretty much eliminated mandatory retirement. As a result the previous generation refusing to retire is a big problem in a lot of fields because it means very few openings for people trying to start their careers. In academia a tenure track position is basically unattainable because so many of them are occupied by 70 year olds who refuse to retire. Anyone who wants to teach instead has to settle for a bunch of adjunct positions where you have to be retired every semester. If you want to see why tenure is important look at the adjunct system: there is evidence that adjuncts fail significantly fewer people because being rehired is highly affected by student reviews, and people tend to be unhappy with the person who failed them. They are also terrified of saying anything bad about the University or whistle blowing because they won't get their contract renewed.
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May 31, 2015 13:34
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PostNouveau posted:Somebody from Wisconsin want to explain what the gently caress happened to their state? You used to be one of the good ones. Same thing that happened to most of the world, really. In 2008 the economy collapsed, 2010 saw a wave election for the GOP, and the rest is history. The Wisconsin GOP has just been particularly effective at pushing whatever they want because there exists insane amounts of political money flooding into the state. It's going to take a long time to undue the harm caused by the GOP. The good news is that the millennial generation is not only much more left-leaning, but they've also flooded out of Wisconsin in droves. However, most teens/young adults who leave Wisconsin supposedly return at some point.
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May 31, 2015 14:06
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Boon posted:
I don't know why it's not only a good thing that left leaning people left Wisconsin but a bad thing that they're returning.
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May 31, 2015 14:09
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Well, I phrased it horribly. What I meant to say was that despite skilled/educated youth fleeing Wisconsin, they tend to return later in life. It's early and I'm sick 
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May 31, 2015 14:14
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Pohl posted:I will never forget one of my Sociology Professors railing about the Iraq war and then kicking a lumphead wanna be Marine out of class after 9/11. The kid deserved to get kicked out, because there were 30 other students there trying to learn and that kid insisted on derailing the entire class. The kid was an idiot and he was wrong. My Professor was right and like he told that kid; The version of this story I heard had the Marine punch the Professor out because God was too busy. 
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May 31, 2015 14:19
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Shifty Pony posted:Tenure is a different thing than the old professor who has been there forever. Age discrimination less have pretty much eliminated mandatory retirement. As a result the previous generation refusing to retire is a big problem in a lot of fields because it means very few openings for people trying to start their careers. In short, education as a profession in the United States is no less hosed up at the university level than it is in the K-12 level and the Goddamn Old People want to collapse it entirely.
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May 31, 2015 14:43
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Joementum posted:In conclusion, the Republican primary is a study of contrasts. In fairness to The Donald (didn't think I'd ever say or type that...), he/his underpaid interns also tweeted this. quote:I would like to offer Vice President Biden my warmest condolences on the loss of his wonderful son, Beau. Met him once, great guy!
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May 31, 2015 14:44
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Vox brought this up in relation to Beau's passing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwZ6UfXm410 quote:In that 2012 speech, Biden talks about the constant weight of grief. "Just when you think, ‘Maybe I’m going to make it,’ you’re riding down the road and you pass a field, and you see a flower and it reminds you. Or you hear a tune on the radio. Or you just look up in the night. You know, you think, ‘Maybe I’m not going to make it, man.' Because you feel at that moment the way you felt the day you got the news." 
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May 31, 2015 15:14
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Senator Lee says he has 60 votes for USA FREEDOM, so we can expect the USA PATRIOT Act to sunset at midnight tonight after Randy blocks any short-term renewal and the 215 data collection program to be defunct for a day or two while the Senate works its business. The only way to speed up the timeline would be to give in to Rand and allow votes on his amendments, but he's said that nobody's reached out to him and indicated that's a possibility in the last week, and I doubt Mitch will cave on it now since waiting a day isn't going to be the end of the world.
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May 31, 2015 15:35
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Quote of the morning, "I hope I run. I want to. But I haven't made the final decision yet." ~ Jeb Bush, on Face the Nation.
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May 31, 2015 15:40
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Joementum posted:Quote of the morning, "I hope I run. I want to. But I haven't made the final decision yet." ~ Jeb Bush, on Face the Nation. Speaking of Jeb Bush, the host on This Week called him "George" thus perfectly encapsulating Jeb's problems
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May 31, 2015 15:50
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Shifty Pony posted:Tenure is a different thing than the old professor who has been there forever. Age discrimination less have pretty much eliminated mandatory retirement. As a result the previous generation refusing to retire is a big problem in a lot of fields because it means very few openings for people trying to start their careers.
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May 31, 2015 15:51
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Joementum posted:Quote of the morning, "I hope I run. I want to. But I haven't made the final decision yet." ~ Jeb Bush, on Face the Nation. How dare he tell such a bald-faced lie on Bob Schieffer's very last show. Respect your (and everybody else's) elder, JEB (!). 
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May 31, 2015 15:52
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Apparently John Kerry broke his femur in a bike accident in France. Stable, not life-threatening. http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/31/europe/geneva-john-kerry-bike-accident/index.html A femur is one hell of a bone to break...
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May 31, 2015 16:05
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hobbesmaster posted:This is apparently part of a big fight about how independent the university will be from the legislature. I'm not sure it's even symbolic so much as part of a list of things that they compromised on to allow the university to manage itself. Walker apparently wanted the university to be almost completely independent. Which seems fair enough, if you're not going to pay for it with state money you shouldn't have the state legislature making demands... Welp, time for the Federal Govt to step in and shore up funding... 
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May 31, 2015 16:11
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 Bikegate
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May 31, 2015 16:12
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What did Hillary do to cause Bikeghazi? 
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May 31, 2015 16:15
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Swift Bike Veterans for Truth
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May 31, 2015 16:19
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Boon posted:A femur is one hell of a bone to break... Yeah. I broke mine, but it took a really bad car accident to do it.
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May 31, 2015 16:21
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My uncle had to get a hip replaced after a bad bike accident in a race
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May 31, 2015 16:53
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Joementum posted:Quote of the morning, "I hope I run. I want to. But I haven't made the final decision yet." ~ Jeb Bush, on Face the Nation. He's just so busy working with an important non-profit that no one knows what will happen to if he steps away to run. Maybe working to extend a hand to help America fight for it's right to rise up is just as important a job as being President?
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May 31, 2015 17:10
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First Harry Reid hurt himself while "exercising", now Kerry while "bicycling". Something big is afoot here folks. 
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May 31, 2015 17:12
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i am harry posted:Let us pause for a moment and remind ourselves in contrast what Mr. Rove has lost. His conscience? Basic human decency?
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May 31, 2015 17:28
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Boon posted:Apparently John Kerry broke his femur in a bike accident in France. Stable, not life-threatening.
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May 31, 2015 17:32
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:My uncle had to get a hip replaced after a bad bike accident in a race Sorry for your loss.
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May 31, 2015 17:41
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Also, when those old people retire, departments aren't always getting that money back to hire someone, even a junior hire. The push is to cut tenured faculty to the bone. And it could all be fixed in an instant if US News made "percentage of student credit hours taught be adjuncts" a negative on their ratings.
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May 31, 2015 17:48
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Shifty Pony posted:Tenure is a different thing than the old professor who has been there forever. Age discrimination less have pretty much eliminated mandatory retirement. As a result the previous generation refusing to retire is a big problem in a lot of fields because it means very few openings for people trying to start their careers. The academia grind was the reason I decided against a PhD. Why the gently caress would I spend my 20s pursuing a degree with little chance of true job satisfaction until I'm over 50?
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May 31, 2015 17:56
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Also, when those old people retire, departments aren't always getting that money back to hire someone, even a junior hire. The push is to cut tenured faculty to the bone. While I completely agree with this as a general trend, I'd be remiss not to point out that my department has, somehow, managed to hold the line and hire several young professors over the last year or so as a number of really old guys finally retired. I mention this chiefly to keep the levels of existential despair from overflowing their usual bounds.
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May 31, 2015 18:02
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