|
fart
Chickenwalker fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 23, 2018 |
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 02:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 04:43 |
|
|
Chickenwalker posted:One of the biggest problems I observed is that there was no activist spirit in Chinese culture. The average guy on the street is unwilling to call out bad public behavior because it's making a fuss and you'll be seen as losing face. And without the threat of being yelled at for your street making GBS threads and loogie-hocking, it runs rampant. Protesting  Volunteering  Keeping the streets loving clean  Cleaning up Anarchist graffiti  Man I wish you got crushed by tanks during 89
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
But that was all due to Western influence on Hong Kong, Chinese people can not accept democracy or western ideas of civic culture, I know this because the Chinese government says so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:00
|
|
|
Fall Sick and Die posted:But that was all due to Western influence on Hong Kong, Chinese people can not accept democracy or western ideas of civic culture, I know this because the Chinese government says so. Isn't one of the reasons that Taiwan irritates the CCP so much because it's a democratic China right next door that is way better to live in?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:05
|
|
|
I'm sure the 500 or so disturbances and other protests in China every day are just another sign of the celestials' failure to internalize any values that would make them real (white) men, like activism and not doing poo poo solely out of saving face. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/01/how-china-stays-stable-despite-500-protests-every-day/250940/
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:05
|
|
|
Fall Sick and Die posted:But that was all due to Western influence on Hong Kong, Chinese people can not accept democracy or western ideas of civic culture, I know this because the Chinese government says so. It's actually because all the good ones got ate by the progenitors of the modern chinaman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:08
|
|
|
What the gently caress is happening in this thread? Why are we suddenly diagnosing The Inherent Problems With Confucian/Chinese culture? Like, seriously, what the gently caress? This is literally the mirror version of all those Confucian Principles Make China Unable to Be Capitalist/Make China Super Good at Capitalism that are always in and out of style based upon how scared we are of the Oriental Menace. Confucian virtues don't make Chinese parents view their kids as an investment (and hey wait I thought all these children were spoiled Little Emperors?), it's the intense economic competition and destruction of the social safety net. Lack of activism, whatever that means in a country which has tens of thousands of protests a year over land requisitions and NIMBY/environment stuff, is due to the fact that it is literally a police state that throws dissidents in jail for trying to raise awareness of sexual harassment (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/06/world/asia/chinese-womens-rights-activists-fall-afoul-of-officials.html?_r=0). And hey, for all this making GBS threads on Confucianism, the Honest Official Who Speaks Truth to Power and Outs Corruption is one of the most honored role models in the entire canon--the first battle of the Cultural Revolution was fought over the production of a play on that very subject! Funny how that aspect is ignored by people who have decided that Confucian "face-saving" prevents any speaking out. So seriously, cut this Orientalist bullshit out. Yes, some aspects of traditional culture can cause problems (just like eg Protestant Work Ethic and its attendant features in the US), but to paint them as the be-all end-all of China's woes is dumb as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:09
|
|
|
fart
Chickenwalker fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:11
|
|
|
Someone said something stupid. The rest jumped on it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
Chickenwalker posted:I think I pretty explicitly said I was talking about the unadulterated traditionalism of the mainland. Of course Hong Kong and Taiwan aren't going to be as hosed up as the mainland, they've had enormous amounts of outside influence. Ah yes, the unadulterated tradition of the mainland. Where the peasants literally enacted a Communist revolution. And then twenty years later students, workers, and anyone else with an axe to grind got to take part in the Cultural Revolution. And again, you ignore that thousands of protests actually do take place in this benighted mainland, even with state reprisal as an ever-present threat. Edit: yeah, artificer, by the time I wrote up that post other people had replied too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:25
|
|
|
fart
Chickenwalker fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:26
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:What the gently caress is happening in this thread? Why are we suddenly diagnosing The Inherent Problems With Confucian/Chinese culture? Like, seriously, what the gently caress? This is literally the mirror version of all those Confucian Principles Make China Unable to Be Capitalist/Make China Super Good at Capitalism that are always in and out of style based upon how scared we are of the Oriental Menace. Confucian virtues don't make Chinese parents view their kids as an investment (and hey wait I thought all these children were spoiled Little Emperors?), it's the intense economic competition and destruction of the social safety net. Lack of activism, whatever that means in a country which has tens of thousands of protests a year over land requisitions and NIMBY/environment stuff, is due to the fact that it is literally a police state that throws dissidents in jail for trying to raise awareness of sexual harassment (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/06/world/asia/chinese-womens-rights-activists-fall-afoul-of-officials.html?_r=0). And hey, for all this making GBS threads on Confucianism, the Honest Official Who Speaks Truth to Power and Outs Corruption is one of the most honored role models in the entire canon--the first battle of the Cultural Revolution was fought over the production of a play on that very subject! Funny how that aspect is ignored by people who have decided that Confucian "face-saving" prevents any speaking out. Chickenwalker posted:I think I pretty explicitly said I was talking about the unadulterated traditionalism of the mainland. Of course Hong Kong and Taiwan aren't going to be as hosed up as the mainland, they've had enormous amounts of outside influence.  Western influence my loving rear end. That's what the CCP would like us all to believe in. Evil ghostly foreign forces and all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:27
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:What the gently caress is happening in this thread? Why are we suddenly diagnosing The Inherent Problems With Confucian/Chinese culture? Like, seriously, what the gently caress? This is literally the mirror version of all those Confucian Principles Make China Unable to Be Capitalist/Make China Super Good at Capitalism that are always in and out of style based upon how scared we are of the Oriental Menace. Confucian virtues don't make Chinese parents view their kids as an investment (and hey wait I thought all these children were spoiled Little Emperors?), it's the intense economic competition and destruction of the social safety net. Lack of activism, whatever that means in a country which has tens of thousands of protests a year over land requisitions and NIMBY/environment stuff, is due to the fact that it is literally a police state that throws dissidents in jail for trying to raise awareness of sexual harassment (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/06/world/asia/chinese-womens-rights-activists-fall-afoul-of-officials.html?_r=0). And hey, for all this making GBS threads on Confucianism, the Honest Official Who Speaks Truth to Power and Outs Corruption is one of the most honored role models in the entire canon--the first battle of the Cultural Revolution was fought over the production of a play on that very subject! Funny how that aspect is ignored by people who have decided that Confucian "face-saving" prevents any speaking out. Actually, I'm just shitposting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:49
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:So seriously, cut this Orientalist bullshit out. Yes, some aspects of traditional culture can cause problems (just like eg Protestant Work Ethic and its attendant features in the US), but to paint them as the be-all end-all of China's woes is dumb as gently caress. To say nothing of the fact that Confucianism is but one aspect of traditional Chinese culture (albeit a predominant one). Daoism, Legalism and Buddhism (to name but three) have also had profound historical influence. Then on top of that you can add the influence of regionalism, nationalism (both Chinese and Han) and the various flavours of Communism that have sprung up in the past 65 years. Making sweeping statements Confucianism and contemporary China is like trying to explain contemporary US culture solely in terms of Protestantism; sure there's an influence but it's far from the be-all and end-all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:50
|
|
|
Chickenwalker posted:The GBS thread is better anyway! Later haters. bye
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 04:15
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:To say nothing of the fact that Confucianism is but one aspect of traditional Chinese culture (albeit a predominant one). Daoism, Legalism and Buddhism (to name but three) have also had profound historical influence. Then on top of that you can add the influence of regionalism, nationalism (both Chinese and Han) and the various flavours of Communism that have sprung up in the past 65 years. Making sweeping statements Confucianism and contemporary China is like trying to explain contemporary US culture solely in terms of Protestantism; sure there's an influence but it's far from the be-all and end-all. It's still pretty bad though. Ploblem-atic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 04:27
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:And hey, for all this making GBS threads on Confucianism, the Honest Official Who Speaks Truth to Power and Outs Corruption is one of the most honored role models in the entire canon--the first battle of the Cultural Revolution was fought over the production of a play on that very subject! Funny how that aspect is ignored by people who have decided that Confucian "face-saving" prevents any speaking out. He's being re-educated, and has been for the last 60 years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 05:49
|
|
|
Like most power relationships, the good parts of Confucian ideas like the officials having to actually deserve the respect and protect the weak get thrown out because gently caress those guys. Anyway reducing everything to Confucius is dumb but pretending it doesn't matter is equally dumb. Therefore,
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 12:26
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:He's being re-educated, and has been for the last 60 years. actually, this person is xi jinping
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 12:49
|
|
|
caberham posted:Protesting On the other hand, the arguments against these protests by the establishment were all pretty much exactly what Chickenwalker said. And neither these protests nor the 89 ones really panned out for the protesters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 12:55
|
|
|
Bloodnose posted:On the other hand, the arguments against these protests by the establishment were all pretty much exactly what Chickenwalker said. And neither these protests nor the 89 ones really panned out for the protesters. I don't think "current elite uses conservative threads in dominant philosophy to argue against change" is a phenomenon particularly unique to China and Confucianism thought. After all, Latin American strongmen used Christianity to justify oppression for much of the 20th century, while at the same time other Christians were developing liberation theology to justify action against those same strongmen. And once again, if Confucianism is such a barrier to change, how did the revolt that led to the formation of the Republic of China, the Communist revolution, the Cultural revolution, and the successful democracy movements in Taiwan and South Korea take place?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 13:42
|
|
|
I don't know Korean history much at all. But Taiwan was democratized largely from inside the KMT. The RoC and communist revolutions were spurred by resistance to outside forces (Manchu, western colonial and Japanese), and the Cultural Revolution was founded in explicit communist rejection of Confucianism and relied on China's massive glut of young people. These days, China and especially Hong Kong, has a dearth of young people and a huge Confucian revival. But you're right that "current elite uses conservative threads in dominant philosophy to argue against change" is nothing special. It's just that in China and Hong Kong they're especially strong threads. I still think democracy and liberalism will win out in the end. But I think Confucianism and the vague memory of Cultural Revolution chaos have left a steep hill to climb. There's a reason the Hong Kong establishment likes to throw around the term "Red Guards." When describing pro-democracy youth.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 13:53
|
|
|
South Korean history has similarities to Taiwan: authoritarian governments that drove economic liberalisation and growth, into social liberalisation and democracy. And also an external threat that would constantly sabre-rattle. Though Korea probably has stronger government-business ties than Taiwan. While Deng and Zhou were better leaders than Chiang ever was, China probably would have been better off under the predictable authoritarianism of the KMT, instead of the unpredictable lunacy of the CCP. A KMT-run mainland would still have to deal with regionalism and corruption, but at least they could nominally empower locals to deal with those local problems, instead of forcing them to petition the central government. Maybe. At the very least no one would have attempted Mao's hare-brained schemes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:11
|
|
|
Phobophilia posted:South Korean history has similarities to Taiwan: authoritarian governments that drove economic liberalisation and growth, into social liberalisation and democracy. And also an external threat that would constantly sabre-rattle. Though Korea probably has stronger government-business ties than Taiwan. I mean, best case scenario is probably Mao chokes on a dumpling in 1950 and you get slow, steady Soviet-style economic growth for the next few decades while avoiding the GLF and CR.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:48
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:I don't think "current elite uses conservative threads in dominant philosophy to argue against change" is a phenomenon particularly unique to China and Confucianism thought. After all, Latin American strongmen used Christianity to justify oppression for much of the 20th century, while at the same time other Christians were developing liberation theology to justify action against those same strongmen. "Modernization" and "democratization" aren't the same things. The formation of the Republic of China, at least, was done with the conscious goal of catching up with Western Europe and Japan, not as democracy or rule of law for its own sake. Same with Japan and its modernization. There's a whole different social contract at work than there is/was with European democracies icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Sep 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
Smiling Knight posted:I mean, best case scenario is probably Mao chokes on a dumpling in 1950 and you get slow, steady Soviet-style economic growth for the next few decades while avoiding the GLF and CR. More and more I am convinced that Mao was both the world's greatest revolutionary and most destructive leader--each of them an improbable feat, and combined seemingly impossible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 23:45
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:More and more I am convinced that Mao was both the world's greatest revolutionary and most destructive leader--each of them an improbable feat, and combined seemingly impossible. Man good at wrecking things wrecks country... twice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 23:46
|
|
|
Revolutions are almost always thoroughly awful for absolutely everyone involved and usually end up making things worse, which is why I don't understand why some people seem to fetishize them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 23:53
|
|
|
Said the goon who is neither slave nor serf.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:Said the goon who is neither slave nor serf. The people who fetishize them tend to also not be slaves nor serfs and in fact are frequently also goons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
In the 1960s the mainstream Korean historiography turned decisively against Confucianism. In both the North and South the failures of the Joseon Dynasty, which ultimately lead to the humiliation of occupation and the chaos of the Korean War, were frequently blamed on the stultifying influence of Neo-Confucianism on social and industrial development. The author of the history I read summarizing this internal narrative, who was Korean himself, felt the modern reaction against Confucianism was less to do with any direct material impacts of the philosophy on society, and more about creating a narrative of progress and finding a scapegoat for Korea's troubles in the early 20th century.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
It's not a fetish to say "Boy not being a serf or slave is great, I'm sure glad people rebelled against the social order to make that happen." That's just not being an idiot or extremely masochistic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:05
|
|
|
Squalid posted:In the 1960s the mainstream Korean historiography turned decisively against Confucianism. In both the North and South the failures of the Joseon Dynasty, which ultimately lead to the humiliation of occupation and the chaos of the Korean War, were frequently blamed on the stultifying influence of Neo-Confucianism on social and industrial development. The author of the history I read summarizing this internal narrative, who was Korean himself, felt the modern reaction against Confucianism was less to do with any direct material impacts of the philosophy on society, and more about creating a narrative of progress and finding a scapegoat for Korea's troubles in the early 20th century. China was pretty much the same ~50 years earlier, and it was only the literal Cultural Revolution that got people saying "hey maybe we can enjoy our past while still looking forward".
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:07
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:It's not a fetish to say "Boy not being a serf or slave is great, I'm sure glad people rebelled against the social order to make that happen." That's just not being an idiot or extremely masochistic. On the other hand, LF.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:12
|
|
|
Considering there is no mandatory mourning period for 3 years every time a patriarch dies, No, confucianism does not make up a large portion of daily life nor is it used to legitimise the government.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:36
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:On the other hand, LF. LF being full of Maoist/Stalinist weirdo gimmicks does not make "revolutions always bad" a true statement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:59
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:LF being full of Maoist/Stalinist weirdo gimmicks does not make "revolutions always bad" a true statement. I didn't say they were always bad, I said they were usually bad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 01:30
|
|
|
Phobophilia posted:Considering there is no mandatory mourning period for 3 years every time a patriarch dies, No, confucianism does not make up a large portion of daily life nor is it used to legitimise the government.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 01:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 04:43 |
|
|
Bloodnose posted:It's about as significant to daily life as Christianity is in much of the west. And it is definitely used to legitimize the government. Like bigtime. Like suggesting that the Chinese Communist Party isn't deliberately promoting the poo poo out of Confucianism in a drive to legitimize its rule with a guiding ideology is not a correct or accurate thing to suggest. I've read some pretty decent arguments that the current regime is drawing much more from the Legalist tradition than the Confucian one. I'm also not really hearing about any big Confucian-based ideological pushes from the Party members I know. Where there have been ideological memos sent around (that I've heard of) they've been nakedly Nationalist rather than Confucian. For example the line with the Hong Kong protests was that they were coordinated by the CIA to keep China weak, not that they were young people going against their elders.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:48
|
|