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Gravity Cant Apple posted:Am I the only one to think that Itkovian is a really bland character? He never really did much for me and I'm not sure why there was so much focus on him. I'm right there with you. Then the whole thing later in the series where he is a god and someone needs to defend him and that guy gets hurt and ugggh. I felt nothing for any of those characters even on rereads.
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Oct 2, 2015 16:48
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Spermy Smurf posted:I'm right there with you. Then the whole thing later in the series where he is a god and someone needs to defend him and that guy gets hurt and ugggh. I felt nothing for any of those characters even on rereads.
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Oct 2, 2015 16:57
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Most of TtH is dumb. Any part of it that doesn't deal with the Andii or Kallor, really.
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Oct 2, 2015 17:01
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:Am I the only one to think that Itkovian is a really bland character? He never really did much for me and I'm not sure why there was so much focus on him.
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Oct 2, 2015 17:09
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Itkovian owns and was basically the character that distinguished Erikson and the series from other dark fantasy early on.
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Oct 2, 2015 18:00
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Illinois Smith posted:Itkovian's role in MoI was mostly to introduce the concept of shield anvils without 10 pages of exposition, the same way Gruntle is used to show what a mortal sword is. Yeah but Gruntle was entertaining and an interesting character that did more than just introduce a concept. We had plenty of other characters with survivors guilt, plenty of characters giving up on their gods, and we had plenty of other shield anvils, and they all had other characteristics.
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Oct 2, 2015 19:01
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Gravity Cant Apple posted:Yeah but Gruntle was entertaining and an interesting character that did more than just introduce a concept. We had plenty of other characters with survivors guilt, plenty of characters giving up on their gods, and we had plenty of other shield anvils, and they all had other characteristics. Funny thing, Gruntle is basically the classic reluctant hero and while he have some cool scenes, he is really not that complicated. I also enjoy the fact that you don't seem to realize that people can have different favorite characters. Personal taste etc.....
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Oct 2, 2015 19:16
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I love the way Gruntle turns out at the finale in TCG. Take that, gods.
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Oct 2, 2015 19:18
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itkovian owns just because he upsets silverfox so much
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Oct 2, 2015 20:09
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Edit: ^^^^^ This is a stance I can get behind.Cardiac posted:Funny thing, Gruntle is basically the classic reluctant hero and while he have some cool scenes, he is really not that complicated. I also enjoy the fact that you don't seem to realize that I'm not an idiot. I understand taste is subjective, my original comment was acknowledging the fact that my stance was a minority one. I was hoping to get some insight why most people seem to enjoy a character that wasn't all that interesting to me, and see if anyone else shared my viewpoint. The only thing I seem to hear about Itkovian is people singing his praises and I was wondering if there was some other read on him that I was missing that could lead to me appreciating him more.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:17
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Itkovian is a Christlike figure who we spend a lot of time with in the first person and is involved with one of the most horrific battles in the series. It's pretty understandable how he's so popular. TtH sorta ruined him for me though.
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Oct 2, 2015 20:52
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acumen posted:TtH sorta ruined him for me though. Same here 
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Oct 2, 2015 22:01
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My favorite character was, and always will be, Karsa Orlong. Wasn't Erikson going to make a trilogy about Karsa? Is that coming after the Anomander trilogy?
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Oct 2, 2015 22:38
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Daric posted:My favorite character was, and always will be, Karsa Orlong. Is it terrible that mine has always been Toc? #2 would probably be Fiddler. After that, Karsa.
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Oct 2, 2015 23:18
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Daric posted:Wasn't Erikson going to make a trilogy about Karsa? Is that coming after the Anomander trilogy?
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Oct 3, 2015 01:07
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I've always been a huge Fiddler fan. But Hedge, Tehol & Bugg, QB & Kalam, Karsa, Iron Bars, all great options.
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Oct 3, 2015 02:28
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Chain_of_Dogs posted:I've always been a huge Fiddler fan. But Hedge, Tehol & Bugg, QB & Kalam, Karsa, Iron Bars, all great options. I could read about Tehol & Bugg all day  In fact I miss the times when I did get to read about Tehol & Bugg all day... although it's still not as good as Toc & Tool.
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Oct 3, 2015 02:37
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Fenrir posted:I could read about Tehol & Bugg all day Tehol and Bugg are definitely the most amusing pair so far. As amusing as Kruppe and Iskral Pust are, Tehol and Bugg have them beat.
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Oct 3, 2015 03:50
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Chain_of_Dogs posted:I've always been a huge Fiddler fan. But Hedge, Tehol & Bugg, QB & Kalam, Karsa, Iron Bars, all great options. Can't wait to read the Iron Bars trilogy so I can finally learn why they call him Iron Bars. actually it's just because he has a big ol' dick Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 03:59
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I'm probably the only one but my favorite character is by far Udinaas. Followed by Kallor.
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Oct 3, 2015 09:23
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anilEhilated posted:I'm probably the only one but my favorite character is by far Udinaas. Followed by Kallor. Udinaas I can kinda get behind. He's probably somewhere in my top 10, but... Kallor?? I guess there's a lot more to him I just haven't gotten to yet (I'm about 900 pages into TtH, so about 2/3rds of the way through, this paperback is like nearly 1300) e: also, Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God have shipped  It's nice having a better job, I can afford stuff like, books. Fenrir fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 09:38
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you're about to find out why people like kallor
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Oct 3, 2015 10:12
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I actually liked him even in MoI. Fairly sure the whole "burn down my empire killing every single being in it" just from spiteful arrogance is the most badass act in the entire series. Gotta appreciate a good villain. But yeah, he gets his humanizing moment in TtH. And that's after you realize he even got screwed from being the King In Chains by some ICE fop with a fraction of his character. e: Sorry. Still, kinda funny you chew me out for not spoilertagging and then quote the post. You might want to fix that. Also, Whiskeyjack is a really overrated character IMO. We keep being told how awesome he is but never really see him do anything deserving that reputation. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 10:23
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e: quote destroyed because spoilers, and I'm dumb Ugh please tag your spoilers. But I do have to admit he was a good villain. I just hate him because (MoI) He loving killed Whiskeyjack Fenrir fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 10:41
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Fenrir posted:Ugh please tag your spoilers. But I do have to admit he was a good villain. I just hate him because (MoI) He loving killed Whiskeyjack Good. That character was overrated.
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Oct 3, 2015 11:06
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Tommofork posted:Good. That character was overrated. Huh. I never felt that way. He was (GotM-MoI) only in two books as opposed to many others who have been around for much more, and the way Erikson writes it often takes 2+ books to develop a character fully - Fiddler is a good example of this. He was about as well developed as anyone else at that point, and well done at that. Granted, his defining moment was slaughtering the insane women who tried to take children of the dead seed just to save them from Dragnipur but drat, still. I thought he was a great character. Even Anomander Rake was nearly brought to tears by that. (HoC-TtH)Karsa is an even better example, he grows throughout the series and while you kinda "get" him in HoC, he is still showing you new facets of himself even in TtH... and hell, the Karsa chapters are the best parts of this drat book so far Fenrir fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 11:38
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Fenrir posted:Huh. I never felt that way. It's ok I was just yanking your chain. quote:He was (GotM-MoI) only in two books as opposed to many others who have been around for much more, and the way Erikson writes it often takes 2+ books to develop a character fully - Fiddler is a good example of this. He was about as well developed as anyone else at that point, and well done at that. Granted, his defining moment was slaughtering the insane women who tried to take children of the dead seed just to save them from Dragnipur but drat, still. I thought he was a great character. Even Anomander Rake was nearly brought to tears by that. It's not that I think he's a bad character, he's just not as interesting as others. GotM-MoI spoilers He just sticks out like a sore thumb in that he's smart, compassionate, honorable, a tactical and strategic genius, loved by his soldiers, an incredibly skilled swordsman and also wins the heart of a Tiste Andii and wins gets respect from and becomes best buds with Anomander in the space of a book. If he has flaws, they aren't visible. WJ is pretty much a mary sue and set up to be killed to make you have a feeling and it falls really flat, at least to me it did, in comparison to the Bridgeburners getting gutted in Coral, Gruntle and Itkovian during and after Capustan or just the siege of Capustan itself. TtH spoilers while I love Karsa now, and I hated him when I first started HoC but liked him more on the re-read when I got that Erikson was writing him as a know it all rear end in a top hat on purpose so Karsa could be punched repeatedly in the face by reality, when I re-read TtHs I actually started liking Kallor a hell of a lot because he is an interesting character. He comes across as very one dimensional in MoI and others, but in TtHs he is developed a lot. Also the reason you're seeing Karsa develop new facets is because he has been developing new facets. Keep in mind in Teblor years he's basically young twenties, and his experiences really left a mark on him.
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Oct 3, 2015 12:27
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Hmm. That's a fair point about (the first 8 books basically) Whiskeyjack. He is kind of too perfect, and maybe that was the point. Maybe he was built up to die. I agree with you that it wasn't the tragic event that a lot of things were. For example, the deaths of Beak, Toc and ESPECIALLY Trull Sengar were so much more resonant to me. Trull... loving hell  I still get sad thinking about that. It was the first time in over a decade a book has made me cry. That was a gut punch with a handful of knives. Also, that's kinda what I was getting at with Karsa - you get to see him grow up and learn how the world works, and he's become one of my very favorite characters because of that. That was actually pretty apparent to me even on the first read. I just always felt like he was a child in many ways and should be expected to act like one. Jeez, this page is starting to look like a NSA document. Anyways, at my (very slow) reading speed, which is slower than most snails and sloths, I should manage to finish the series this year. At least, I hope so. I finally got some money together to order DoD and TCG (hell, my fiancee bought me TtH or I wouldn't even have that) and they'll be here soon. I can't wait. Fenrir fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 12:43
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Fenrir posted:Hmm. That's a fair point about (the first 8 books basically) Whiskeyjack. He is kind of too perfect, and maybe that was the point. Maybe he was built up to die. I agree with you that it wasn't the tragic event that a lot of things were. For example, the deaths of Beak, Toc and ESPECIALLY Trull Sengar were so much more resonant to me. Trull... loving hell I kinda missed it on the first read through. I don't know if I actually missed it or just forgot with time, but my memory of Karsa from my first read was very different to what I ended up with from the second read of HoC. Not much else to say except I agree with the other bits having a lot more impact. Like I can understand how the characters in the story were devastated, but as a reader I was like uhm yeah ok move on please. Moving back to MoI spoiler chat, it was more shocking that Kallor went balls out with his betrayal trying to murder Silverfox than WJ dying. I was expecting something subtle. Probably the reason I like WJ despite him likely being someone's character when Erikson and Co were playing Malazan GURPS, was the way he just didn't take any poo poo at all from Kallor, going so far as to backhand a man that's lived for ages, ruled and burned continents to spite his enemies, and wasn't hiding behind Caladan Brood to do it. Also I probably like Kallor because he's trying to muder Silverfox, which is a sentiment I can get behind. Fenrir posted:Jeez, this page is starting to look like a NSA document. Anyways, at my (very slow) reading speed, which is slower than most snails and sloths, I should manage to finish the series this year. At least, I hope so. I finally got some money together to order DoD and TCG (hell, my fiancee bought me TtH or I wouldn't even have that) and they'll be here soon. I can't wait. The first rule of Malazan fight club is don't spoil anything so the Erikson can sucker punch newbies for days. Also I read the series about 5 years ago, had tried re-reading but never got past the first few books, but started re-read a few months ago and now I'm stalled on TCG because I'm busy and distracted again. I really should finish it before I forget everything and have to restart  . Having said that, I'm super excited to read the new books about the Tiste civil war and break new ground so I can understand the feeling!e: instead of bitching about stalling out I actually read a chapter. 
Eediot Jedi fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 13:09
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Tommofork posted:e: instead of bitching about stalling out I actually read a chapter. Hell yeah. I can't wait for TCG with all the buildup that's gone on so far. Page 947 of TtH right now.
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Oct 3, 2015 16:33
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Tommofork posted:It's not that I think he's a bad character, he's just not as interesting as others. GotM-MoI spoilers He just sticks out like a sore thumb in that he's smart, compassionate, honorable, a tactical and strategic genius, loved by his soldiers, an incredibly skilled swordsman and also wins the heart of a Tiste Andii and wins gets respect from and becomes best buds with Anomander in the space of a book. Only the last bit of that is true, though. Everything else happens before the series starts and we are just clued into it by GotM/MoI. And in sum total, he's little different from a character like Fiddler, in that both are geniuses (in their respectice fields) and also both are genuinely good people. And while both have a certain consequent Mary Sue-ness about them, they've also both led hard lives, both have skeletons overrunning their closets, and both dug their way to the top of the poo poo less through personal acts of heroism and nobility, and mostly through dumb luck. They are both complex characters despite their superficial blandness. And yeah gently caress Kallor for killing WJ.  e: \/\/\/ ugh, my bad, got carried away Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 18:27
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Dude please spoiler tag that last line there.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:55
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Jose posted:itkovian owns just because he upsets silverfox so much Itkovian owns because he is not yet done.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:23
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Habibi posted:I don't agree with that spoilered bit at all, or at least to the extent that there's plenty of great stuff in the main series that's not critical for understanding or enjoyment of the series, either, but as with FoD, tremendously impacts both of those things. I should clarify that I think FoD really is great, but if we're talking about "payoff" for the Andii flashbacks and history in the main series specifically we're being disingenuous, because those callbacks are fairly shallow (and rightfully so, or else FoD would become EU-level filler) and there's very little to learn from the minutiae of Tiste society that wasn't already stated or implied in those books. Eriksson does a really good job introducing characters and plotlines past filling in around the snippets of Sandalath's rantings, Rake/Endest Silann's memories, Yedan Derryg's horseshit, the falseness of the Tiste creation myth, etc and that stuff is a lot more interesting, in my mind. I certainly wouldn't recommend FoD on the basis of redeeming those aspects of the main series, but I'd recommend the poo poo out of it for being compelling on its own merit.
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Oct 3, 2015 20:19
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Jedit posted:Itkovian owns because he is not yet done. Neitrhers my dick
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Oct 4, 2015 01:12
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Neitrhers my dick In the original draft his name was 'Dicktovian.'
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Oct 4, 2015 01:52
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Habibi posted:In the original draft his name was 'Dicktovian.' *takes on the pain, sweat, rubbings, pokings, proddings etc of 10000 angry cavemen*
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Oct 4, 2015 02:39
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Tommofork posted:
The problem with Whiskeyjack is that you don't see him grow, you only see him after he's reached the end of his development. It's like if Karsa didn't appear before Lether. Also did Whiskeyjack not let Mallet heal him because he was cursed by Hood for some reason? I remember something being mentioned about him and Fiddler, I think, preventing his sister being taken by Hood's priest?
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Oct 4, 2015 04:20
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mornhaven posted:The problem with Whiskeyjack is that you don't see him grow, you only see him after he's reached the end of his development. It's like if Karsa didn't appear before Lether. I get your first point and thought about acknowledging it in my post but chose not to because it's still laid on thick about how noble and good he is. With regard to the second part, it was WJ´s half sister, who is Dunsparrow in BH. She was given to Hood's temple, but WJ and Fiddler took her back.
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Oct 4, 2015 04:39
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I forgot to mention, also with regard to the second part: Someone in the story claimed that Hood had come to regret taking such a personal interest in WJ's death, which if true meant that Hood was able to influence WJ to refuse healing somehow. I think it was Raest who made the claim while he was going around being Herald of Death but I am 50% sure on that. I don't think Raest is a reliable source. Maybe Hood was still pissed about WJ & Fiddler stealing Dunsparrow back from the temple and was getting a measure of revenge, but given WJ & Fiddler have been in approximately a million deadly scrapes and survived I'm inclined not to believe that. Or Hood can actually read into the future to a degree, which makes sense given he knows when to turn up to collect a soul, and saw an opportunity to gently caress not only with WJ but his beloved Bridgeburners, by getting WJ killed right when they needed all the support they could get. But then why does Hood not gently caress with Fiddler?
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Oct 5, 2015 00:24
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