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3.33 could have been fine had they shuffled stuff a bit. The bad poo poo happens the gang finds Shinji and fills him in. Shinji tries to fix everything because guilt is shinjis thing even though everyone tells him not to. He fucks everything worse which then makes everyone hate him.
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May 3, 2016 18:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:3.33 could have been fine had they shuffled stuff a bit. The bad poo poo happens the gang finds Shinji and fills him in. Shinji tries to fix everything because guilt is shinjis thing even though everyone tells him not to. He fucks everything worse which then makes everyone hate him. Hell no. The fact that people hate him irrationally and/or for reasons he doesn't know or understand is part of what makes Rebuild 3 so good.
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May 3, 2016 18:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Rebuild 3 isn't a mess, it builds and follows up on everything I just said. Nah it's a hard retcon or it just doesn't make any sense, also none of what you mentioned addresses my issues with it nor does it interest me in any way. Your version is boring and lovely writing.
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May 3, 2016 18:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah it's a hard retcon or it just doesn't make any sense, also none of what you mentioned addresses my issues with it nor does it interest me in any way. What are your issues with it?
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May 3, 2016 18:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Hell no. The fact that people hate him irrationally and/or for reasons he doesn't know or understand is part of what makes Rebuild 3 so good. It's actually the exact opposite, this why 3 is bad
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May 3, 2016 18:44
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:It's actually the exact opposite, this why 3 is bad It's bad if you think people are justified in hating him and that Shinji should pay for his sins, but if you think that, you either haven't been paying attention or your system of ethics sucks. Note I'm not defending them hating him for no reason -- that would actually be bad writing. That's not what it is, though.
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May 3, 2016 18:46
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People living for decades of misinformation or second guessing or flat out not knowing Shinji's motivations, and having to deal with the consequences of his actions while he disappears into the ether is bound to make them irrationally despise the kid. It makes complete sense
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May 3, 2016 18:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:What are your issues with it? None of the characters act like their characters, outside Asuka. Nor does it really fit with how Shinji is built in the show or first two movies. Like with how it is currently built there is no reason Shinji shouldn't throw a Hail Mary, it can't get worse for him.
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May 3, 2016 18:49
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In Training posted:People living for decades of misinformation or second guessing or flat out not knowing Shinji's motivations, and having to deal with the consequences of his actions while he disappears into the ether is bound to make them irrationally despise the kid. It makes complete sense Exactly, although I would add that they're not just ignorant of his motivations, but also (with the possible exception of Ritsuko) none of them know how the mechanics of the apocalypse work, either.
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May 3, 2016 18:49
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In Training posted:People living for decades of misinformation or second guessing or flat out not knowing Shinji's motivations, and having to deal with the consequences of his actions while he disappears into the ether is bound to make them irrationally despise the kid. It makes complete sense Literally every single day for all those years the crew could simply look outside and be reminded of what happened, it would always be a constant reminder. It would be p weird if everyone acted rationally towards Shinji once they found him.
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May 3, 2016 18:50
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People change in 15 years.
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May 3, 2016 18:50
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In Training posted:People living for decades of misinformation or second guessing or flat out not knowing Shinji's motivations, and having to deal with the consequences of his actions while he disappears into the ether is bound to make them irrationally despise the kid. It makes complete sense That is what sucks the core cast do know and were openly chearing him on as he did it the only character who doesn't hate him openly was the one who wasn't there ironically.
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May 3, 2016 18:50
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CharlestheHammer posted:That is what sucks the core cast do know and were openly chearing him on as he did it None of them knew he was going to accidentally end the world until Ritsuko realizes with like 15 seconds left in the film.
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May 3, 2016 18:51
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Srice posted:Literally every single day for all those years the crew could simply look outside and be reminded of what happened, it would always be a constant reminder. It would be p weird if everyone acted rationally towards Shinji once they found him. It's a nice touch that the only one who shows a little empathy is Touji's sister, who's ostensibly spent her entire life like this, so she has no real concept of a "before". She doesn't seem to harbor too much ill-will as a result.
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May 3, 2016 18:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:That is what sucks the core cast do know and were openly chearing him on as he did it No, they weren't. Ritsuko was horrified. Misato was cheering for him, but she was probably cheering out of personal guilt -- she loves Shinji but in Rebuild 1 and 2 (and of course the TV series) she's using him as a vehicle for her revenge against the Angels. Rebuild 2 forces her to confront the conflict between those feelings, and her love of Shinji wins. Then she has to live with the consequences of that decision for 14 years. (And even so, angry as she is, she can't bring herself to kill him -- which, given Shinji could do it all over again, means that although it's harder than ever, she confirms her original decision.)
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May 3, 2016 18:52
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In Training posted:None of them knew he was going to accidentally end the world until Ritsuko realizes with like 15 seconds left in the film. I know which is what makes them hating him so dumb. It's fine that Asuka does it fits her character for doing it, but this random bout of irrationality doesn't fit the rest. Like I said 3 works if you treat the incident as something bad that happened in the past but seeing it and it really doesn't.
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May 3, 2016 18:53
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The only part I don't like about 3.33 is that I wish there was just a teensy bit more screen time for the NERV desk mechanics. I don't remember their names, but the woman and the guy with the long hair, and glasses guy, who all got replaced by the goofy looking new inept pilots. The woman shows up for 2 seconds scowling below decks, but I wonder what she's been through.
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May 3, 2016 18:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's bad if you think people are justified in hating him and that Shinji should pay for his sins, but if you think that, you either haven't been paying attention or your system of ethics sucks. It's bad because Shinji, and by extension the audience, never gets any concrete information in the whole film. Everyone just hates on Shinji super hard all movie and we never get anything. Obscuring information from viewers is fine, but eventually you have to drop the curtain and fill them in. 3 doesn't, because it knows "oh, it's k, we got another movie to wrap it all up" and I really do not appreciate that serialized approach to film.
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May 3, 2016 18:54
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In Training posted:It's a nice touch that the only one who shows a little empathy is Touji's sister, who's ostensibly spent her entire life like this, so she has no real concept of a "before". She doesn't seem to harbor too much ill-will as a result. I forgot all about that. That's pretty neat.
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May 3, 2016 18:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:No, they weren't. Ritsuko was horrified. Misato was cheering for him, but she was probably cheering out of personal guilt -- she loves Shinji but in Rebuild 1 and 2 (and of course the TV series) she's using him as a vehicle for her revenge against the Angels. Rebuild 2 forces her to confront the conflict between those feelings, and her love of Shinji wins. One of the strongest shots in the movie, when her thumb falters over the trigger.
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May 3, 2016 18:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah it's a hard retcon or it just doesn't make any sense, also none of what you mentioned addresses my issues with it nor does it interest me in any way. Your version is boring and lovely writing. Lol he actually wrote substance and explained his position with detail and you post some useless "actually it's bad" response. I don't think you're using the word retcon correctly, because based on my understanding it means when a new addition to a story contradicts what happened previously but the new stuff is "true". Nothing got retconned in 3.33. I seriously cannot fathom how a person can read tuxedo catfish's posts and not find them incredibly illuminating.
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May 3, 2016 18:55
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In Training posted:People change in 15 years. Not only do people change in 15 years, but when you're living some weird hell scape of constant fighting and not aging people are going to change big time. I actually think 3 is the best of the rebuilds.
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May 3, 2016 18:55
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It's kinda weird that Gendo, Fuyutski, Rei and Kawarou are like, the only 4 remaining NERV employees who live in the busted rear end broken down ruins of NERV HQ, yet somehow they're able to produce new Evangelions and Angel-thingies to fight with Misato and the people at Wunder.
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May 3, 2016 18:56
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Also it's insanely cool that Misato puts Shinji over revenge / saving the world in Rebuild when in EoE she does the exact opposite, torpedoing their child/guardian relationship with her dying breath in order to manipulate him into fighting one last time. (I realize in both cases there's a valid argument that she did what she should have done, I just find the contrast really neat.)
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May 3, 2016 18:56
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Also it's insanely cool that Misato puts Shinji over revenge / saving the world in Rebuild when in EoE she does the exact opposite, torpedoing their child/guardian relationship with her dying breath in order to manipulate him into fighting one last time. Absolutely. There's a lot I love about all the interpersonal relationships in Eva, but the stand out scenes with Misato/Shinji throughout the series really are head and shoulders above the rest. That scene in particular in EoE is loving brutal.
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May 3, 2016 18:57
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In Training posted:The only part I don't like about 3.33 is that I wish there was just a teensy bit more screen time for the NERV desk mechanics. I don't remember their names, but the woman and the guy with the long hair, and glasses guy, who all got replaced by the goofy looking new inept pilots. The woman shows up for 2 seconds scowling below decks, but I wonder what she's been through. I remember some of the new characters were supposed to be young enough that they would have been babies or maybe not even born when all that poo poo when down? Feels like a missed opportunity that they didn't get to do anything, would have been a neat perspective, seeing characters that never knew a life outside that barren hellscape.
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May 3, 2016 18:58
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I need to do my rewatch soon with the blu Rays, since I missed the simul. Maybe I'll start that this week, finally.
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May 3, 2016 18:58
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No one changes in any meaningful way in 3.33. Well they could but we aren't really given many scenes to see it. We assume they changed because if we don't the scenes don't make much sense but that is because of poor writing more than anything.
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May 3, 2016 18:58
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Also the fact that the first like 30 minutes of the movie is a fight scene which is weird as it doesn't seem like something he would do.
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May 3, 2016 19:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:No one changes in any meaningful way in 3.33. Well they could but we aren't really given many scenes to see it. We assume they changed because if we don't the scenes don't make much sense but that is because of poor writing more than anything. Rei changes, right on screen. She chooses self-determination at the end of Rebuild 3, after appearing earlier in her most exaggerated, hyper-passive version yet. That's not counting all the characters who have obviously changed in the gap (we don't know why, but interacting with them reveals it a little at a time -- like Asuka bitterly taunting Misato about Kaji) or characters who haven't changed yet but are clearly conflicted (Fuyutsuki at the end of the shogi scene.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:03 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 19:01
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Rei isn't even a character until the end, at least the clone.
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May 3, 2016 19:03
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I would say the only character who hasn't changed (and remarkably so) is Mari, but I'm still not sure what her role in the saga will be and until Final comes out I won't say one way or another whether or not I like her character. She's been a complete enigma and I'm incredibly curious what her payoff will be. As it stands the only scene I really remember Mari in is the one in 3.33 where her boobs bounce like water beds.
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May 3, 2016 19:06
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Misato also changes. She chooses, long after she should, to activate Shinji's collar and she clearly hates herself for doing so. Like, people seem to view Misato as this nice awesome mom who like Shinji and is good to him but she kind of isn't. She's really hosed up and her relationship with Shinji veers between something they both need and something deeply unhealthy for both of them. Her cheering Shinji on and being angry at him later isn't a 'retcon.' This is the same woman who keeps going back to sleep with Kaji.
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May 3, 2016 19:07
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The thing that bugs me the most is how they manage to operate NERV HQ and build new Evas with 4 employees and the place in ruins Because you know, all the other weird stuff didn't mess with my suspension of disbelief, but that did lol EDIT: In Training posted:I would say the only character who hasn't changed (and remarkably so) is Mari, but I'm still not sure what her role in the saga will be and until Final comes out I won't say one way or another whether or not I like her character. She's been a complete enigma and I'm incredibly curious what her payoff will be. As it stands the only scene I really remember Mari in is the one in 3.33 where her boobs bounce like water beds. I'm not really a huge fan of Mari, because well, there doesn't seem to be much to her character as we haven't gotten a lot of screentime from her. She feels kind of unnecessary and tacked on just for the sake of adding a new character for merchandise. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 3, 2016 |
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May 3, 2016 19:09
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Really my main issue is Shinjis problem has always been that he feels everyone loaths him and hates him and wants nothing to do with because that is how he feels about himself. Everyone is always been really nice and friendly to him but he can't escape his own feelings so he projects them onto others. Which seems like the logical point for 3.33 to have run with by having his imagined feelings driving him to do something that made them real, instead of the nothing we got.
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May 3, 2016 19:11
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CharlestheHammer posted:Really my main issue is Shinjis problem has always been that he feels everyone loaths him and hates him and wants nothing to do with because that is how he feels about himself. Everyone is always been really nice and friendly to him but he can't escape his own feelings so he projects them onto others. Which seems like the logical point for 3.33 to have run with by having his imagined feelings driving him to do something that made them real, instead of the nothing we got. That isn't really true. Rei is extremely cold to Shinji. It takes him a long time to understand why. Asuka is anything but kind and friendly to Shinji. Gendo sure as gently caress isn't kind and friendly to Shinji. Ritsuko isn't exactly mean to Shinji but she isn't particularly nice to him either. She's Ritsuko. The closest thing he has to friends wanted to beat the poo poo out of him the first time he met them. Misato is kind to Shinji but also a giant bundle of issues. Shinji's issues are not just internal. Gendo alone proves that.Most of the people close to him have similarly huge issues and it's hard for Shinji to really grasp why or empathize with them due to his own issues.
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May 3, 2016 19:13
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Everyone you listed shows those issues to everyone and not Shinji in particular. Plus Rei warms up really quickly in the movies Even Asuka is toned down pretty heavily for the movies. Gendo is Gendo. As such he is the only one I would say is consistently cold to Shinji.
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May 3, 2016 19:17
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I kind of feel like the original Evangelion is a timeless classic because here we are, still talking about it 20 years later. I'm not so sure about the rebuilds. They're certainly pretty, but I can't help but feel like they'll be forgotten in the years to come. They said that they would stand on their own and wouldn't require prior familiarity with the series to enjoy, but I'd say they're anything but. If I wasn't already a big fan of the original series, I really couldn't see myself liking the Rebuilds all that much. It's also a format thing. Evangelion was originally a TV show and let us get to know its characters in-depth. And well, extremely in-depth when we literally got inside their heads. When truncated into a movie, you naturally lose a lot of that.
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May 3, 2016 19:18
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I wouldn't think of them as a separate project, it's a continuation of Evangelion through the decades, really. Future reflections won't consider them as different works once the Rebuild saga is complete, most likely. It's just tough now, waiting for them to be released.
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May 3, 2016 19:20
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CharlestheHammer posted:Really my main issue is Shinjis problem has always been that he feels everyone loaths him and hates him and wants nothing to do with because that is how he feels about himself. Everyone is always been really nice and friendly to him but he can't escape his own feelings so he projects them onto others. Which seems like the logical point for 3.33 to have run with by having his imagined feelings driving him to do something that made them real, instead of the nothing we got. Shinji projects onto Rei and that's why he walks into gendos plan, and projects his feelings of guilt onto everyone else and that's why he ignores kaworus pleading.
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May 3, 2016 19:20
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