Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Alright so yesterday took me a bit longer than I expected. I completely ripped out the ceiling light fixture because the ballast looked like it was from the 70s and I remember when I worked at a pharmacy as a kid, a ballast exploded into flames and caused a decent fire. So anyway I hung up a new 8' ceiling light fixture and wired it up. So there is no longer two 4' lights; it's just one long 8' one. And I unhooked EVERYTHING after doing that, and here is what I have:



I am guessing the most obvious thing is I should hook 10 to 3, 11 to 2, and 12 to 1 in the junction box, and 3 to 5 in front of the garage (via pigtail), but again, I wanted to leave everything completely disconnected for this.

Also you might notice a slight change. There is no longer 2 sets of wires going to the flood light box. I managed to pull one of them out. One of them was going to the junction box and I think it was acting as a lazy way for the electrician to get power to the ceiling light fixture. I really did not want two wires in there. So I simply took one set of wires out. I am ready to buy any length run of electrical cable that I need, so if I need to buy any, just say so!

So long story short, there is my diagram, and all I need to know is what needs to be wired to what and I will be all set! Bonus thanks if you can explain how I can use the 3rd empty gang in the back of the garage as an outlet, but it is not the end of the world if it's too complex.

Again, I can easily run new wire down to that 3 gang box from any of the fixtures (except from the 2 gang box in the front of the garage) so whatever needs to be done, I am all ears.

Thank you all so much as always for any help you can provide!

angryrobots posted:

Can you fish to the 2 gang box at the front of garage?

Qwijib0 posted:

without any additional wiring, this would get you the ceiling switched at the front, and and outlet and working flood (which is always on, but I thought it was supposed to be since it has a motion sensor). Cap off wire 12, you don't need it.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Again, I can easily run new wire down to that 3 gang box from any of the fixtures (except from the 2 gang box in the front of the garage) so whatever needs to be done, I am all ears.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

However, now there is an outlet in the ceiling right next to the garage door mechanism that it plugs right into. So previously, they just had a huge-rear end extension cord going across the ceiling to the 3 gang box to power the garage door mechanism. I am not sure what made them change it to an outlet right next to the mechanism in the ceiling; my guess is that it wasn't legal to sell the house that way so they had to have it added. And perhaps this is why the ceiling light and flood light worked when we first saw the house, then when we got the house those lights stopped working.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Alright so yesterday took me a bit longer than I expected. I completely ripped out the ceiling light fixture because the ballast looked like it was from the 70s and I remember when I worked at a pharmacy as a kid, a ballast exploded into flames and caused a decent fire. So anyway I hung up a new 8' ceiling light fixture and wired it up. So there is no longer two 4' lights; it's just one long 8' one. And I unhooked EVERYTHING after doing that, and here is what I have:



I am guessing the most obvious thing is I should hook 10 to 3, 11 to 2, and 12 to 1 in the junction box, and 3 to 5 in front of the garage (via pigtail), but again, I wanted to leave everything completely disconnected for this.

Also you might notice a slight change. There is no longer 2 sets of wires going to the flood light box. I managed to pull one of them out. One of them was going to the junction box and I think it was acting as a lazy way for the electrician to get power to the ceiling light fixture. I really did not want two wires in there. So I simply took one set of wires out. I am ready to buy any length run of electrical cable that I need, so if I need to buy any, just say so!

So long story short, there is my diagram, and all I need to know is what needs to be wired to what and I will be all set! Bonus thanks if you can explain how I can use the 3rd empty gang in the back of the garage as an outlet, but it is not the end of the world if it's too complex.

Again, I can easily run new wire down to that 3 gang box from any of the fixtures (except from the 2 gang box in the front of the garage) so whatever needs to be done, I am all ears.

Thank you all so much as always for any help you can provide!

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

kid sinister posted:

Where's this box?


It looks like that wire you ripped out from the ceiling junction box to the flood light was the supplying hot for the flood light and that the yellow cable in your diagram was for a switch leg. It also looks like the previous owner wanted that flood light so much that they screwed up the 3 way switching to do it, running more wires than was necessary.

As is, there's no way for your 3 way switching to work properly. Without adding any wires, the best you could do is have each light on separate 2-way switches while still having an outlet at the back of garage box. If you want 3 way switches at the front and back of the garage to turn on the ceiling light, and also assuming that box you left out is a straight coupling for all wires inside, then you could have an outlet at the back of garage box just by running a single run of /2 cable of proper gauge from the front of garage box to the back of garage box.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Yeah that small rectangular box is a little bit further down in the ceiling towards the front of the garage. I guess used as a simple way to get that wire to extend to the back of the garage.

Not being able to use the three way switch isn't the end of the world. I still wonder what the hell the previous owners were doing and how they got it all to work though!

kid sinister posted:

You could buy a half inch flexibit, cut a hole in the wall a few studs over directly underneath the switch box, drill horizontally over to where the existing box is, then thread the wore through and patch the hole. It sounds like a lot, but that is the best solution I can think of for you.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Following up on this, the basic procedure would be to open up the box containing the switch, pigtail some NMC to the "input" (always powered) side of the switch, feed said NMC down to where I've opened up the drywall, then feed it sideways through the drilled hole to the outlet. Hook the other ends of the NMC up to the receptacle I want to be always powered, while hooking the existing cable up to the receptacle I want to be switched. And while I'm down there, figure out if I have a cheating ground. Does that sound about right?

If I do have a cheating ground, can I just attach the ground to the (metal) kitchen piping? I mean, if the ground is cheated, then it's probably cheated in other outlets throughout the house, and fixing that would be comparable to rewiring the house anyway: something that needs doing, but not something that I really feel up to tackling (both financially and in terms of stress it would add to my life) in the immediate moment.

...stupid homeownership. At least I already have everything I need (NMC, spare boxes if I need more room, wire nuts, drywall tools/patches/mud) except for the flexible drill bit.

kid sinister posted:

Have you taken the cover off that box and verified that?

Don't forget that you still need to expose and mount those 2 boxes properly and you also need GFCI tamper proof outlets. You might have to replace some of those cables if there isn't enough slack to move the boxes to the surface. It's also possible to use your switch at the back of the garage instead of the front for the ceiling light. Basically you would put the switch at the other box and swap the red wires used.

Edit: also use wire nuts to cap off both ends of whichever red wire you end up not using.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Not being able to use the three way switch isn't the end of the world. I still wonder what the hell the previous owners were doing and how they got it all to work though!

kid sinister posted:

It's just "NM". With that old cloth-insulated wire, I would honestly replace the run of cable with some 12-3. Use the black wire for always hot and red for the switched hot. The problem you will run into is that GFCI requirement for the dishwasher and that the duplex on GFCI outlets can't be split.

quote:

A cheating ground is wiring the ground to the neutral wire. Still, one way electricians grounded steel boxes in the past was to attach the ground wires on the gang screws outside the box. Test for a circuit between the hot wire and the box itself.

The only way you could ground that box like that is if the clamps for both the ground wire for your panel and this new outlet are both clamped within 6 feet of your water's service entrance. That update came as a result of PEX and CPVC coming out.

quote:

Do you have an oscillating tool or a pocket hacksaw? They're great for removing original boxes out their existing holes in the wall. Basically, you pry on the stud side of the box a bit, stick your tool in the gap, cut through the 2 nails on the top and bottom holding the box to the stud, remove the clamps in the box holding the wires, then work the box out of the hole.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Well, worst case I can install a second outlet next to the first one, and just have one switched outlet and one always-on.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Yeah I definitely would rather have the switch for the ceiling fixture at the back of the garage. So what would I do with the front? Make it two separate outlets instead of an outlet and a switch? If so, that's fine as four outlets there would be nice anyway.

So with that in mind, and with me wanting two switches and an outlet at the back of the garage, how would my wiring diagram look? If you are in no position to mess around with Paint right now I understand.

(I am going to do all that gfi and exposed box stuff you recommended by the way)

angryrobots posted:

I recall reading something about cord- and-plug connected appliances cannot exceed 50% of branch circuit amp rating.

Possibly an issue depending on the size of your particular appliances, or am I interpreting it wrong?

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

Couldn't you just use 1 GFCI and 2 regular outlets?

kid sinister posted:

Here's the diagram. You could use a GFCI and regular outlet at the front to save some money. Just use the load terminals on the GFCI to power the regular outlet beside it.

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

Couldn't you just use 1 GFCI and 2 regular outlets?

angryrobots posted:

Hey kid sinister, what say you about the 50% rule with the dishwasher and disposal? Curious for my own use.

da codebook posted:

210.23 Permissible Loads, Multiple-Outlet Branch Circuits.
In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit
ampere rating. A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets
or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified
according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D)
and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or
20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply
lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination
of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.

da codebook again posted:

210.22 Permissible Loads, Individual Branch Circuits.
An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply
any load for which it is rated, but in no case shall the load
exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

The only interesting thing of note is that when I trip the gfci outlet at the front, nothing else seems to turn off. I'll explore that one next time but for now you and everyone who replied to me to help is a saint and I hope there will be some way I can reciprocate in the future.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I guess what I could do is take existing input cable to the switch, disconnect it from the switch, connect it to the cable I run to power the dishwasher, and then use the neutral for the dishwasher as the new input to the switch? That way the switch would be downstream of the dishwasher -- that is, there'd be no branch in the circuit. Seems like a weird way to wire things up though.

kid sinister posted:

You would have to add up the wattages of your disposal and dishwasher. Applying Ohm's Law to a 20A circuit: 120V x 20A = 2400W total, so half would be 1200W. I suppose you could make an argument that this section doesn't apply to portable dishwashers though.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

My dishwasher isn't portable; it's an under-counter unit with a power cable running behind the cabinets to under the sink. As I understand it, as long as the dishwasher can be securely turned off (either by a switch or by unplugging it), the setup should be legal.

kid sinister posted:

Then it has nothing on its load terminals, easy as that.

kid sinister posted:

Technically, no. That is "fastened in place", so that rule does apply. Now there is an exception for small appliance circuits in the kitchen, but that's for little portable stuff that sits on the counter.

quote:

Honestly, for your situation, I would just jury rig it safely for now, then do your major electrical rework at a later date. If your dishwasher and disposal start tripping the breaker when ran together, then I would start thinking about doing it proper.

Uncle at Nintendo posted:

Makes sense. Thank you

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Any opinion on whether my idea to "linearize" the circuit (going dishwasher -> switch -> disposal) is workable? It would avoid any branching at the cost of adding extra wire nuts. As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be any issue, but I'll freely admit to not being an expert on these matters.

kid sinister posted:

Well, for starters, you don't have enough wires to do it as is. Actually, that would take more wires than replacing that cable with a /3. Second, you would be putting your dishwasher and disposal in series with each other, possibly damaging them from the voltage drop. Third, you would make both of them run whenever the switch is turned on.

Remember, every electrical device needs both a power source and a return path. The good news is that return paths can be shared.

edit: your method made me think of a California 3-way method and the Carter method, very illegals ways to do 3 way switches.

BeastOfExmoor posted:

I just bought a new house and have been thinking about installing LED/CFL compatible dimmer switches in a couple rooms. I just noticed our Costco started carrying a 2-pack of Feit LED/CFL dimmer switches for $15, which is less than half the cost of the cheapest Lutron/Leviton models I've been looking at. Any reason anyone can think of that I should avoid them? I've never heard of any safety/reliability issues from switches or outlets.

kid sinister posted:

Never heard of Feit. That being said, using dimmable LED/CFLs along with compatible dimmable LED/CFLs has always been a crapshoot, despite who made them. Problems range from the dimmable range might be less than how far the switch can physically travel, to flickering at low levels. I would imagine that it has gotten better over the years, but YMMV.

BeastOfExmoor posted:

I just bought a new house and have been thinking about installing LED/CFL compatible dimmer switches in a couple rooms. I just noticed our Costco started carrying a 2-pack of Feit LED/CFL dimmer switches for $15, which is less than half the cost of the cheapest Lutron/Leviton models I've been looking at. Any reason anyone can think of that I should avoid them? I've never heard of any safety/reliability issues from switches or outlets.

GWBBQ posted:

Does flexible metal conduit need to be attached to a box if it's being used for low voltage wiring or can I get away with sticking it through a low voltage frame? I need to run cables that aren't rated for in-wall or plenum use into a wall, through a plenum space, and back down the wall.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Ugh. Opened up the switch box in my kitchen, and it's this narrow-rear end thing with barely any room in it. I certainly don't have enough space to pigtail in an extra cable. And replacing the box would require cutting a larger hole in the tile it's hiding behind. Or I suppose really opening up the wall behind it so I can access the box from the back.

kid sinister posted:

With flex, you at least want ends on it just to prevent any burrs at the cut to start stripping the cable. But no, it doesn't have to end at a box.

You can use non plenum rated cables in a plenum if it's a straight shot across the plenum.

GWBBQ posted:

Thanks. Isn't the 50 foot rule only for cables entering from the outside?

kid sinister posted:

Why pigtail? If you're replacing a cable, you can abandon the old one in the wall.

quote:

Post a picture of the box. I bet we could get you a bigger one that you won't have to cut out a bigger hole to install.