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My Lovely Horse posted:The only thing I remember from Discworld 2 are the numerous "puzzles" that only required you to realize an area had more than one screen to it and was just drawn to fool you into thinking it didn't. I'm pretty sure the people behind the first two games were driven by an insane hatred towards humanity.
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Jul 29, 2016 19:11
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Alhazred posted:I'm pretty sure the people behind the first two games were driven by an insane hatred towards humanity. So basically, the game was created by the auditors.
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Jul 29, 2016 20:01
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I do remember that one of the puzzles in the first game required you to have read Guards Guards I think.
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Jul 29, 2016 20:22
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Ika posted:So basically, the game was created by the auditors.
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Jul 29, 2016 20:28
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EvilTaytoMan posted:I do remember that one of the puzzles in the first game required you to have read Guards Guards I think. Oddly enough, Discworld 1's plot felt a lot like the draft notes for Guards Guards and a few of the Rincewind books. The same for Discworld 2, which seemed to sort a tribute to Reaper Man, Pyramids, Moving Pictures and Soul Music. Discworld Noir was honestly the best one what with trying something original. Shame that was the last one.
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Jul 29, 2016 22:37
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Jerry Cotton posted:Sandman death is "lovable" if you're a terrible child nerd. When did perky goth girls become a thing that only "child nerds" like? The people I knew who were into Sandman when it was actually extant were very much "not nerds". For most of them, Sandman was the only comic they had ever read.
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Jul 30, 2016 00:35
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SeanBeansShako posted:Oddly enough, Discworld 1's plot felt a lot like the draft notes for Guards Guards and a few of the Rincewind books. The same for Discworld 2, which seemed to sort a tribute to Reaper Man, Pyramids, Moving Pictures and Soul Music. Yeah that's the general feeling I get from them. The first two plots just felt like they took some plotlines from the books and mashed them together, and added in other books for the sake of extra locations and puzzles.
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Jul 30, 2016 00:45
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precision posted:When did perky goth girls become a thing that only "child nerds" like? The people I knew who were into Sandman when it was actually extant were very much "not nerds". For most of them, Sandman was the only comic they had ever read. Enthusiasm for anything makes you vulnerable to accusations of nerdiness. The goal is to keep everyone from expressing "care levels", that is to say, reduced merely to spouting puns.
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Jul 30, 2016 01:11
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EvilTaytoMan posted:Yeah that's the general feeling I get from them. The first two plots just felt like they took some plotlines from the books and mashed them together, and added in other books for the sake of extra locations and puzzles. Discworld 2 had some very surreal musical moments...
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Jul 30, 2016 01:39
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Jerry Cotton posted:Does this mean you haven't read any of the Finnish translations or that you haven't read any of the originals? You caught me. Despite posting in a Pratchett thread, discussing the details of his work, and bringing up specific points in the very post you quoted, I have never read Discworld. In fact, I cannot read in general, typing these posts by mashing my face against the keyboard at random. I've never confessed this before. Perhaps... perhaps I feel willing to tell you because I find a kindred spirit. (Also, the "translation loses something, no matter how well done" bit is older than anime nerds. It's kind of a thing with, say, classics scholars discussing fundamental works of western literature. Writing isn't just about what you say, but how you say it, and different languages cover the same concepts differently. For a quick example, Chinese has a lot of similar sounding words, making for a lot of puns that don't work as well in other languages. It means that a fair number of Pratchett's puns, being heavily based in the weirdness of the English language, have to be replaced. And considering half the reason you'd read Pratchett is the jokes...)
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Jul 30, 2016 03:23
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Alhazred posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(DC_Comics) Thank you for quoting two examples of "Death as a sympathetic character" done badly. I especially dislike Gaiman's take on the concept and I share Sam Keith's opinion about it, while Pratchett's Death manages to be completely true to Keith's sentiment -- he's certainly cold and hard, and certainly not pleasant to look upon -- while being likeable. He's not perky and bouncy and goofy: he is Duty Personified, cold and impersonal, but compassionate enough to realize that there are times when sparing a life and changing the world is necessary. Pratchett's Death is a well-written character with deep motivations and solid in-universe logical foundations. Gaiman's Death is a pretentious masturbatory fantasy. I never liked Susan, though. Susan is just heinously grating and pretty much superfluous to the plot, especially since almost a quarter of her dialogue is bashing her grandfather or being snotty to her Wacky Animal Companions.
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Jul 30, 2016 04:08
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Screaming Idiot posted:Gaiman's Death is a pretentious masturbatory fantasy. No? She's a pretty accurate character. Gaiman's Sandman, on the other hand, could fit the bill you're describing. Or Delirium. But Death? Nah. She's actually pretty normal, which is I think  edit: And you never liked Susan either? Ye gads man.
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Jul 30, 2016 05:16
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precision posted:No? She's a pretty accurate character. Yeah, Gaiman's Death is the most human of the Endless because she interacts with humans all the time. And while Pratchett's Death (there really is no good of way of writing that) are good in small doses he doesn't really work as a main character. The books about him are basically variations over the theme "Death takes holiday and learns a valuable lesson while Susan has to do the real work".
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Jul 30, 2016 10:13
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precision posted:No? She's a pretty accurate character. 
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Jul 30, 2016 10:31
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Screaming Idiot posted:Gaiman's Death is a pretentious masturbatory fantasy.. hm yes pretentious 
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Jul 30, 2016 12:22
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Alhazred posted:Yeah, Gaiman's Death is the most human of the Endless because she interacts with humans all the time. And while Pratchett's Death (there really is no good of way of writing that) are good in small doses he doesn't really work as a main character. The books about him are basically variations over the theme "Death takes holiday and learns a valuable lesson while Susan has to do the real work". That works for Mort and Soul Music, but Susan isn't in Mort. In the other two Susan books Death tricks her into solving the problems that he can't because of the rules.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:34
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Alhazred posted:I'm pretty sure the people behind the first two games were driven by an insane hatred towards humanity. No, point-and-click adventure games are just like that.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:03
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dordreff posted:No, point-and-click adventure games are just like that. That doesn't so much disprove my point as it proves that it's not just the makers of the the first Discworld games who hates humanity with a burning passion.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:14
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Alhazred posted:I'm pretty sure the people behind the first two games were driven by an insane hatred towards humanity.
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Jul 30, 2016 15:39
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FactsAreUseless posted:Ever play the old Infocom Hitchhiker's Guide game? I've played Starship Titanic which neatly fits into my theory.
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Jul 30, 2016 16:22
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Alhazred posted:That doesn't so much disprove my point as it proves that it's not just the makers of the the first Discworld games who hates humanity with a burning passion. Yeah that's what I meant. You can't make those kind of games if you have love in your heart.
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Jul 30, 2016 16:25
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I played Mystery Of The Druids. A game where you poison a homeless man to get just enough spare change to make a phone call. Any other point and click game puzzle wise before that was just a little over eager, earnest and being forced to be hard for those lame HELP LINES game companies had.
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Jul 30, 2016 16:33
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Screaming Idiot posted:Thank you for quoting two examples of "Death as a sympathetic character" done badly. I especially dislike Gaiman's take on the concept and I share Sam Keith's opinion about it, while Pratchett's Death manages to be completely true to Keith's sentiment -- he's certainly cold and hard, and certainly not pleasant to look upon -- while being likeable. He's not perky and bouncy and goofy: he is Duty Personified, cold and impersonal, but compassionate enough to realize that there are times when sparing a life and changing the world is necessary. Pratchett's Death is a well-written character with deep motivations and solid in-universe logical foundations. Gaiman's Death is a pretentious masturbatory fantasy. Thanks for reminding me that as much poo poo as I give Neil Gaiman, there's still some good things about him.
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Jul 30, 2016 17:58
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GodFish posted:That works for Mort and Soul Music, but Susan isn't in Mort. In the other two Susan books Death tricks her into solving the problems that he can't because of the rules. It also doesn't work for the good half of "Reaper Man" where Death is the lead character. He gets the arc, he deals with the problems, he develops and deals with his new mortality.
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Jul 31, 2016 00:09
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People give criticize Reaper Man quite a bit for being too silly, but it was one of my favorites. From the hilarious inversion of the heroic undead attacking the evil shopping mall, to the surprisingly touching story of "Bill Door" learning exactly why people fear death, to the antics of the Unseen University faculty, it's everything a Discworld book ought to be. LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?
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Jul 31, 2016 04:02
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Screaming Idiot posted:People give criticize Reaper Man quite a bit for being too silly, but it was one of my favorites. From the hilarious inversion of the heroic undead attacking the evil shopping mall, to the surprisingly touching story of "Bill Door" learning exactly why people fear death, to the antics of the Unseen University faculty, it's everything a Discworld book ought to be. I think people generally love the Death parts of Reaper Man (rightfully so) but are ambivalent about the weird mall subplot. I don't actively dislike it, but it's not what I remember the book for and I usually forget that it exists altogether.
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Jul 31, 2016 04:36
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Kinda harsh to use this metaphor, but it's like the "pretty girl being friends with an ugly girl" cliche, except that the undead part kinda drags down the excellence of the Death part. Mind you, I suppose it's worth it for the scene of Death and Poons just chilling on the bridge.
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Jul 31, 2016 05:23
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Yeah, I wasn't crazy about the parasitic-mall parts (neat idea, ehhh in practice) but there's a reason the thread title was pulled from that book. Reaper Man also gave us the Reverse-Werewolf, which never fails to make me giggle like a loon.
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Jul 31, 2016 05:52
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Reaper Man was great, but all the other Death books is basically just a variation over that plot. I'm not saying that Gaiman is a better author than Pratchett but at least he managed to write two stories about Death where one of them wasn't "Death takes a holiday".
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Jul 31, 2016 14:43
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Alhazred posted:Reaper Man was great, but all the other Death books is basically just a variation over that plot. I'm not saying that Gaiman is a better author than Pratchett but at least he managed to write two stories about Death where one of them wasn't "Death takes a holiday". This ain't accurate: Death only truly takes a vacation in Mort. The other books are more accurately described as Death either being forced out of his role (Reaper Man through Auditor politicking, Soul Music through personal grief) or taking another role but remaining an elemental force of the universe (Hogfather, Thief in Time as a Horseman of the Apocalypse). And all throughout the books, Death's whole journey is learning to empathize with humanity, culminating in direct defiance against the Auditors in both Hogfather and Thief of Time. Death not directly doing his duty does not qualify as a holiday plot, considering that every role after Mort still heavily involves his role as the anthropomorphic personification of death itself: he becomes a bereaved father to Ysabel as duty demanded, a grandfather to Susan who ends up inheriting part of his power and role, a feared/hated elemental trying to cover for one loved all over the world, and a destined harbinger of the apocalypse that successfully turns his fate on its head. Death remains Death whatever he does, but each book gives new and greater significance to his actions as he becomes more and more human.
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Jul 31, 2016 15:20
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toasterwarrior posted:This ain't accurate: Death only truly takes a vacation in Mort. The other books are more accurately described as Death either being forced out of his role (Reaper Man through Auditor politicking, Soul Music through personal grief) or taking another role but remaining an elemental force of the universe (Hogfather, Thief in Time as a Horseman of the Apocalypse). And all throughout the books, Death's whole journey is learning to empathize with humanity, culminating in direct defiance against the Auditors in both Hogfather and Thief of Time. quote:Death not directly doing his duty does not qualify as a holiday plot, considering that every role after Mort still heavily involves his role as the anthropomorphic personification of death itself: That's pretty pedantic. He still leaves his role for a time, then comes back again fundamentally unchanged.
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Jul 31, 2016 15:34
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Alhazred posted:He pretty much already empathize with humanity that in all the books (except for the first one where he has a weird vendetta against Rincewind). Throughout the books he never really changes and he works best a minor character because of it. I have to disagree, based primarily on his actions regarding fate and humanity, the former of which is a big part of his role as the Grim Reaper because of the inevitability of death, throughout his series: - In Mort, his changing of the timeline results in Ysabell and Mort getting together; - In Reaper Man, he saves the life of a little girl as a "human" after getting browbeaten by Flitworth about his stance on the eventuality of human mortality; - In Soul Music, he laments the death of Ysabell and Mort because they held him to his duty, which is rather ironic in the sense that him shirking it in Mort was what led to them becoming a couple in the first place, which only happened because he sees a time-traveling Susan during the duel in Mort and realizes that they were fated to live and die together; - In Hogfather, apart from the fundamental divide between his role as Death and his standing in for the Hogfather, he goes against the story of the matchstick girl (because of her death being "integral" to the story); - This all culminates in the Thief of Time, which is all about the concept of humanity and what defines a human. There, Death keeps noting how his fellow Horsemen have become much too reliant on humanity (and become human-like themselves) to ride out for the apocalypse. At the climax, he pulls another twist of fate by choosing to ride against the Auditors, and ironically nearly gets himself and the Horsemen killed because their closeness to humanity leads to them slowly getting worn out during the battle. The biggest change is in Reaper Man, where his "human" defiance against the girl's fate is his first major act towards understanding why humans fear death and cling to life so desperately. Soul Music (and Mort) is him realizing the weight of decisions regarding fate and mortality, which is particularly significant come Hogfather where he saves the matchstick girl's life in his capacity as the Hogfather by gifting her a future. Only in the Thief of Time does Death get to defy fate as the Grim Reaper itself, because the scythe-wielding personification just so happens to be one of the Four (Five) Horsemen. All throughout the series, Death becomes a complete rules lawyer who bends and twists the rules he is bound to for the benefit of humanity, but he never really becomes that until Reaper Man and onwards.
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Jul 31, 2016 16:49
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I honestly think you're seeing character development where there isn't one. Death has always been on our side against the auditors.
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Aug 1, 2016 11:05
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Screaming Idiot posted:People give criticize Reaper Man quite a bit for being too silly, but it was one of my favorites. From the hilarious inversion of the heroic undead attacking the evil shopping mall, to the surprisingly touching story of "Bill Door" learning exactly why people fear death, to the antics of the Unseen University faculty, it's everything a Discworld book ought to be. awwwww shitttttttttttt
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Aug 1, 2016 11:33
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Alhazred posted:I honestly think you're seeing character development where there isn't one. Death has always been on our side against the auditors. Death is fundamentally against the Auditors just because of what he is. Death is an agent of change. The Auditors are agents of stasis.
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Aug 1, 2016 14:44
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The Auditors represent entropy, and show that entropy and death are not the same; the concept of death is tied, in many religions and in reality, to life. Death doesn't take life away, it creates the purpose for life to begin with. Kind of like how you can't define happiness without sadness.
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Aug 1, 2016 15:10
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dordreff posted:Yeah that's what I meant. You can't make those kind of games if you have love in your heart. I seem to remember one of the end game puzzles in return to zork requiring an item from the start screen, which you couldn't get back to.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:00
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sebmojo posted:awwwww shitttttttttttt Don't you just love that? when you get something from these books despite the time and amount you've read them?
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Aug 1, 2016 20:36
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I read all the Dicksworld novels so fast I actually don't remember much about them. Except that they're good and T.P. is a p good writer
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Aug 1, 2016 23:06
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The thing I always remember no matter how many years past is the first footnote explaining Glod the Dwarf.quote:Bad spelling can be lethal. For example, the greedy Seriph of Al-Yabi was cursed by a badly-educated deity and for some days everything he touched turned to Glod, which happened to be the name of a small dwarf from a mountain community hundreds of miles away who found himself magically dragged to the kingdom and relentlessly duplicated. Some two thousand Glods later the spell wore off. These days, the people of Al-Yabi are renowned for being remarkably short and bad-tempered.
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Aug 2, 2016 00:14
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