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Thanks - I feel I've got a good picture of things now. I'm really enjoying DG. It builds the tension leading up to the Whirlwind so well, and I love when it finally bursts out and everyone's swept up in it. My two favourite things are Duiker following the trail of Coltaine and Felisin's petulance and cruelty. I don't know whether the latter is just her personality or if hating everyone is her way of coping with her trauma. I kind of hate her and feel sympathetic at the same time. Edit: Actually, I'd definitely chalk it up to trauma considering her desire to avenge Beneth of all people. It's like she's suffering the lingering effect of Stockholm Syndrome. snoremac fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jul 29, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2016 06:08
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One of Erikson's skills is in making you sympathize with characters who on their surface would be very unlikable. Deadhouse Gates only keeps on building, so enjoy the ride and let us know what you think!
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Jul 29, 2016 06:33
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It took 2 tries for me to finish Gardens of the Moon, like 4 years apart. Deadhouse Gates is where I got loving hooked. Binged the rest of the series after that one and finished earlier this year. Still haven't finished Fall of Light though, only like 10% in and haven't touched it since I bought it really.
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Jul 30, 2016 04:25
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I read GotM twice, about a year apart, but failed to start DG both times. This time I read a chapter-by-chapter summary to refresh my memory and jumped right into DG. I liked GotM but was underwhelmed by the climax and confused by a bunch of little things (halfway through DG I still can't succinctly explain what a warren is). There are mysterious, badass characters like Rake and Caladan Brood, but no standouts. Except maybe Kruppe, who I'm eager to see again. It doesn't have a character or event I could point to as a reason to recommend it. All that said, it was satisfying. If it's among the worst of the lot (it seems to be near the bottom of the list when people rank the books) then I can't wait to see what's next. The slow build to the fete roped me in. Some characters who don't have time to be fleshed out seem like they'll be very interesting down the line.
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Jul 30, 2016 08:05
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snoremac posted:halfway through DG I still can't succinctly explain what a warren is - warrens are where mages draw their power by opening a portal - there are lots of different ones, each with their own aspect - each mage can only access one or two of them (except Quick Ben) - they can be physically entered and used for travel also nice to see that I'm not the only one in here who likes Kruppe. 
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Jul 30, 2016 09:23
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People don't like Kruppe? He's so loveable. I like how indulgent his dialogue is. That's roughly what I've pieced together about warrens so far. Sometimes events surrounding them are impossible for me to understand and visualize, like that stuff with Kulp and the dragon on the ship. Unrelated: Coltaine's river road escape is the best action sequence so far. Forcing dead mothers to reanimate and stab their children to death while the fathers' skeletons are savagely cut down by the enemy, all to give the rearguard a quick breather. loving hell Coltaine. It's almost scary how the Malazans will take advantage of any power within reach with no regard for the chaos it might unleash. snoremac fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 09:55
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People generally like Kruppe until TtH rolls in. There is such a thing as too much Kruppe.
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Jul 30, 2016 11:05
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TtH is where you should go from liking Kruppe to loving him
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Jul 30, 2016 12:19
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:TtH is where you should go from liking Kruppe to loving him Ahahaha gently caress no.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:23
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You don't see any sweet back tats of Kruppe posted in the thread, do you? (if you have some please post because  )
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Jul 30, 2016 12:23
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:TtH is where you should go from liking Kruppe to loving him TtH was where I went from liking Kruppe to wishing his story ended in MoI, to be honest.
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Jul 30, 2016 12:27
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Illinois Smith posted:I think I looked warrens up in the wiki at about the point you're at but you can also just keep reading and piece it together bit by bit like Erikson intended. Right now all you need to know is There are plenty others who can access multiple warrens, they just aren't played up as much. The most notable exception to all the rules is [Reaper's Gale] Beak. His candles are literally EVERY WARREN and he can manipulate them all at will like some kind of godlike idiot savant. Also, his childlike crush on Faradan Sort was just the most adorable thing ever. I work at a school and it literally reminds me of this 6 year old kid who loves his teacher and wants to marry her 
Fenrir fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 12:29
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Yes, duh. I didn't mention him because for snoremac he won't come up for five more books and by that time he'll have a better understanding of warrens and Malazan magic in general.
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Jul 30, 2016 13:51
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Too many ner'ds.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:08
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Logistically I never really understood how mages in the Malazan army worked. Did every squad have its own Mage? I guess I never got a real feel for how rare the ability to use magic was. And also it didn't seem like there was any sort of aptitude test so some super strong prodigy Mage could just be hanging out with the rank and file dudes.
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Jul 30, 2016 14:38
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In Kellanveds time the army had a lot more mages and they formed special cadres (six + a commander, like the one that gets sent into the Mouse quarter in the GOTM prologue) and companies consisting of nothing but mages. By the time the books kick in there are a lot less of them, especially powerful ones. So yeah, they just kind of stick anyone who shows any talent (like, say, Spindle) into the squads, but not one per squad, because they don't have enough for that. Also the thing about putting them through some sort of aptitude test when they join is that mages tend to get more powerful in extreme situations, or simply by getting used to the beating that opening a warren puts on one's body. Or they could just be powerful mages who want to hide their talents because they're jerks, like Sinn or Quick Ben. Illinois Smith fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 14:51
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Ethiser posted:Logistically I never really understood how mages in the Malazan army worked. Did every squad have its own Mage? I guess I never got a real feel for how rare the ability to use magic was. And also it didn't seem like there was any sort of aptitude test so some super strong prodigy Mage could just be hanging out with the rank and file dudes. They have squad mages which are little baby mages with not much power/versatility, then mage cadres where the big boys go to play. Quick Ben likes to keep a low profile so he's pretending to be a lowly squad mage, see also Bottle. Beak everyone thought was a simpleton so they put him as a squad mage until he revealed himself as a High mage idiot savant. Spindle is good example of a typical squad mage..
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Jul 30, 2016 15:06
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^^ That's basically it. [Whole Series, really don't touch this if you haven't at least read to book 7] Kellanved definitely valued mages more than Laseen. He tried to integrate them into his armies the best he could, because they were an invaluable weapon, especially against Pale, and the conquest of most of 7C. There were points where they could not win without them. The first battle of Y'Ghatan, for example, was alluded to have been fought on the ground and mostly without magics. The place was considered cursed by Malazans long before Tavore and her army show up there in Book 6. Laseen did her best to get rid of mages who could potentially oppose her but obviously she missed a few.
Fenrir fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 15:10
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Yeah, the main reasons the army in the books doesn't have as many good mages as before are - soldiers tend to die if you're constantly at war and - Lasseen purged a lot of the civilian ones This discussion got me thinking about the whole chaotic mage battle that starts it all and boy, my biggest gripe with the start of the series is that we never got to see more Bellurdan. Is he in the I.C.E. books at all? Really wanna know what a Thel Akai high mage is like under normal circumstances. Also gently caress it, it's been 10 months since I mainlined the audiobooks, I think I'm gonna get started on a proper, more spaced-out reread with the real books this time. Just ordered the first few.
Illinois Smith fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jul 30, 2016 |
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Jul 30, 2016 16:49
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Illinois Smith posted:This discussion got me thinking about the whole chaotic mage battle that starts it all and boy, my biggest gripe with the start of the series is that we never got to see more Bellurdan. Is he in the I.C.E. books at all? Really wanna know what a Thel Akai high mage is like under normal circumstances. Not yet, although I'd imagine he will eventually show up in the prequels, as some other prominent characters already have.
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Jul 30, 2016 23:20
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Wasn't he already in Dancer's Lament? I don't think he was named but there can't be that many Toblakai wizards around. Admittedly, I don't really remember much about that book, just have this inkling I saw him there...
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Jul 31, 2016 04:39
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And that's FoL brought to a close. I think the best way I can think to describe it is Toll the Hounds, but without the things that made Toll's issues worth dealing with in the end. That's not to say there weren't several things I liked in the book, but I think it's the first time an Erikson book failed to satisfy me.
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Aug 1, 2016 08:54
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I just finished Deadhouse Gates. What a trip. Halfway through I was simply enjoying myself, but once the Chain of Dogs crept closer to Aren I was emotionally hooked. There's just the slightest bit of hope that they might make it. Even when Coltaine appeared outside the gates I held out hope. I was stunned when it looked like he was slain and then the rebels raised him on the cross. That, compiled with Pormqual's monstrous cowardice, cut deeper than expected. The Chain of Dogs is (I think obviously) the highlight of the book, like a self-contained tragedy with its own resonant message about how the recording of good deeds can effect people's deeds in the future. In retrospect, Coltaine's insistence on Duiker's presence at meetings wasn't simply him following protocol but a sign of his wisdom and selflessness. He probably knew he would never make it. It's kinda strange to revere a character, but when that noble spread rumours that Coltaine killed the refugees, I really wanted Duiker to set the story straight. At least he kicked him in the neck. I mostly enjoyed the other characters. Felisin is my favourite, at least up until things take a turn. Her spitefulness is equal parts funny and annoying, and makes sense psychologically after what she's suffered. Her showing up to become Sha'ik instead of Aspalar was a great bit of misdirection. I like how Crokus is maturing in the background and I'm interested to get back in his head again. Icarium and Mappo's story is conceptually interesting, but I wasn't absorbed by it. What I really love is just how many awesomely imaginative things there are. Coltaine's sappers. The headless sailors. The refugees descending in a frenzy on the archers. The Hounds jumping into a Soletaken's mouth and loving murdering it from the inside. Then there's stuff that's imaginative in different ways, like Duiker seeing an arrow go through a mother and the baby she's holding, which I balked at. The signs of Jaghut genocide at the hands of the T'lan Imass were drat bleak. The book mirrors humanity at its worst in a lot of ways. At the same time, I appreciate that it's not quite as cynical as A Song of Ice and Fire. It's like it's written from the perspective of someone whose optimism has been crushed, but they can still see some good in things. So it's a relief that your typical Malazan soldier isn't a drunken rapist but a disciplined man or woman with a sense of honour. But then it's not ignorant of reality - it's that same discipline that gets ten thousand people killed, and there's treachery and rape and stuff. It strikes a nice middle ground between ASoIaF and Lord of the Rings in that respect. I'm wondering if there's any precedent in history for Dujek feigning a split from the Empire to win over enemies. That sounds like a clever strategy. Can't wait to see what Whiskeyjack and the gang are up to.
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Aug 4, 2016 07:52
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It's probably my favourite thing about the whole series - Unlike GRRM, or any of the other people who write endlessly grimdark things, it's Erikson's moments of happiness & levity that make the gutpunches hit harder. (Way, way ahead of you, don't click this, purely for the full series posters) I am still cut up about Trull Sengar. 
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Aug 4, 2016 09:49
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I failed to heed the warning in the OP not to Google anything. I was just trying to look up the names of the books and immediately saw "Seven Cities is crushed. Sha'ik is dead", which I guess is part of a blurb. Ah well.
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Aug 4, 2016 10:01
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Shockeh posted:(Way, way ahead of you, don't click this, purely for the full series posters) I am still cut up about Trull Sengar. Same  snoremac posted:I failed to heed the warning in the OP not to Google anything. I was just trying to look up the names of the books and immediately saw "Seven Cities is crushed. Sha'ik is dead", which I guess is part of a blurb. Ah well. Just from checking the titles? Ouch.
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Aug 4, 2016 11:18
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I'm doing an in-depth reread of Deadhouse Gates, and it really is excellent. Having read every other Malazan book barring Dancer's Lament, I'm seeing so many little things in DG that have ramifications for the rest of the series. Plus, DG is just such a breath of fresh air after Fall of Light. No extended philosophy wanks, and the pace makes FoL look glacial by comparison. I had a thought about FoL recently, regarding Caplo Dreem: I'll have to check the relevant parts of MT, but does anyone else think he might turn out to be The Pack, or at least something like The Pack?
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Aug 4, 2016 22:02
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I finally made it to The Crippled God. It has been the sweetest ride since Asimov's Foundation saga. What was that war again?
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Aug 6, 2016 12:00
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Is there a good reread, let's read or summary type deal for the first book. Listening to the audiobook and worried I'll get completely lost.
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Aug 7, 2016 03:05
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Monocled Falcon posted:Is there a good reread, let's read or summary type deal for the first book. Listening to the audiobook and worried I'll get completely lost. http://www.tor.com/2010/07/07/the-malazan-re-read-of-the-fallen-gardens-of-the-moon-part-1/ This brought me up to speed when I wanted to refresh my memory before reading Deadhouse Gates. Just don't read the comment section.
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Aug 7, 2016 03:24
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Liking it so far, but the thing I hate most in a fantasy novel is when the normal humans are seeminly powerless against the supernatural but haven't factored that into any part of their society. What good is a legion is all they can do against any kind of fantasy monster is hope it works like a killbot from Futurama? Only a couple chapters in, but it already feels like the Malazan empire is absurdly outclassed and should walking way more softly because the only thing they can do against a magic user is hope they have a stronger one.
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Aug 9, 2016 00:06
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Monocled Falcon posted:Liking it so far, but the thing I hate most in a fantasy novel is when the normal humans are seeminly powerless against the supernatural but haven't factored that into any part of their society. lol, not trying to sound condescending, but keep reading/listening and definitely keep posting reactions. Best part of the thread.
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Aug 9, 2016 00:13
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Speaking of reactions, I just found out about the Children of the Dead Seed and I'm grossed the hell out. The Pannion Domin are built up for so long that I didn't think they'd match the hype, but they're disturbingly creepy the second they show up.
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Aug 9, 2016 05:56
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Monocled Falcon posted:Liking it so far, but the thing I hate most in a fantasy novel is when the normal humans are seeminly powerless against the supernatural but haven't factored that into any part of their society. Lol. Judging a book by a few chapters. You won't be disappointed in this case, so keep reading.
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Aug 9, 2016 07:31
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I hadn't reached the part where the hounds attack when I asked that question. I enjoyed that part, the Still a question that could using answering I feel. Right now, I reached the part with the big mage battle against the Moon's spawn and there I stopped because it bored the poo poo out of me. Edit: It does firmly answer my question about what the Malazan empire does against hostile magic users. Doesn't answer my question about why they bother with legions then. Monocled Falcon fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Aug 10, 2016 |
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Aug 10, 2016 04:09
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Monocled Falcon posted:Liking it so far, but the thing I hate most in a fantasy novel is when the normal humans are seeminly powerless against the supernatural but haven't factored that into any part of their society. I don't know where it's said explicitly but the impression I always got was that a weaker mage could effectively nullify a stronger mage even if they couldn't win in a magical duel. Once the mages are nullified, the armies fight. The armies also have some tricks. Also, just because you're a wizard doesn't mean you're more powerful. There are a lot of cases of Heroic Warrior types going to murder town on magic users. Magic also doesn't help much if you've got a knife in your lungs from somewhere you didn't' expect. In general, magic in the Malazan world sits in balance with everything else.
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Aug 10, 2016 07:26
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Monocled Falcon posted:I hadn't reached the part where the hounds attack when I asked that question. I enjoyed that part, the Eh, you are what 5 chapters in if we are talking about GotM and the assault on Anomander Rake? Talk about judging a book by the covers in that case. For the major part of the series the focus is on the squad level even in the few large battles and well, for handling mages, there is always something called a Cusser which is decidedly non-magical. Oh, and just plain ignoring magic works for some.
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Aug 10, 2016 09:17
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Monocled Falcon posted:I hadn't reached the part where the hounds attack when I asked that question. I enjoyed that part, the You haven't even read the first half of the first book of a ten book epic. Perhaps you should read more and post less
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Aug 11, 2016 07:55
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No, keep posting, new reader reactions are the best. Definitely have faith things will make more sense in the future, it takes time and demonstrations.
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Aug 11, 2016 10:37
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Yeah we don't want to discourage the newbies. It will ruin their enjoyment and ours. Please post all predictions as well as reactions, thanks.
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Aug 11, 2016 15:38
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