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ulvir posted:went ahead and got a copy of if on a winter's night a traveller thanks to the discussion itt it's very good and imo it's best read with an eye trained for calvino's aversion to literary psychoanalysis - (from the literature machine) 'And so the author vanishes - that spoiled child of ignorance - to give place to a more thoughtful person, a person who will know that the author is a machine, and will know how this machine works.'
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Aug 20, 2016 13:54
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Mason & Dixon is the easiest Pynchon by far it;'s basically the Very Hungry Caterpillar
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Aug 20, 2016 14:04
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A cool part of If on a winter's night a traveller is the bit where the girl is talking about her analysis of books by printing out a list of the words and seeing which occurred most and are clearly themes and which occurred least and are therefore being conspicuously avoided by the author then someone told me that's actually a real thing
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Aug 20, 2016 14:07
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CestMoi posted:Mason & Dixon is the easiest Pynchon by far it;'s basically the Very Hungry Caterpillar It's probably the simplest narratively but I had a lot of trouble with the period writing. If you have read a lot of books from the 1700's you will probably have an easier time of it than me.
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Aug 20, 2016 14:24
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I don't know how you find mentally replacing phiz with face more difficult than following the dissolution of Slothrop
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Aug 20, 2016 15:28
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ulvir posted:went ahead and got a copy of if on a winter's night a traveller thanks to the discussion itt Let's read it together! 
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Aug 20, 2016 16:57
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CestMoi posted:A cool part of If on a winter's night a traveller is the bit where the girl is talking about her analysis of books by printing out a list of the words and seeing which occurred most and are clearly themes and which occurred least and are therefore being conspicuously avoided by the author then someone told me that's actually a real thing yeah. one moretti-approved method i've seen a lot is to count the words, create an extremely high-dimensional vector from those counts, project that vector down to to a smaller subspace, and then talk about distances in that space. so for instance you'd say "the lotus eaters is closer to the stories in dubliners than it is to the rest of ulysses" or something. or "shakespeare's tragedies cluster together in terms of diction, apart from his comedies."
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Aug 20, 2016 17:55
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Oh good we're getting into poo poo I don't understand as an English major kickass let's learn stuff Also I just found out I own Blood and Guts in High School by Kathy Acker
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Aug 20, 2016 21:13
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I read The Death of Ivan Ilyich. Thanks for the existential crisis, Tolstoy.
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Aug 20, 2016 21:25
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Nanomashoes posted:I'd rank Pynchon difficulty as This and the sentient ball lightning were my favorite parts. That part was genuinely Lovecraftian and I figured it would play into the plot somehow, but no, it's just an evil black thing from outer space that burns down a city. IIRC the chums flew over it and were just like "oh shucks"
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Aug 20, 2016 21:48
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I'm sorry to say this but bleeding edge is not that good and worth skipping in favor of like any of his other novels
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Aug 21, 2016 00:24
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I'm starting to really get the hang of this leyendo en espaņol thing. I read a ton of pages today
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Aug 21, 2016 00:39
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Enfys posted:I read The Death of Ivan Ilyich. it's probably the most realistic story about dying i have ever read and i read it probably at the worst time possible to do so
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Aug 21, 2016 00:55
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fantasy zone posted:it's probably the most realistic story about dying i have ever read and i read it probably at the worst time possible to do so have you died before
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Aug 21, 2016 01:59
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he read it whilst dying and is dead now
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Aug 21, 2016 03:03
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Let's not make fun of depression guys
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Aug 21, 2016 03:13
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End Of Worlds posted:he read it whilst dying and is dead now so that's what he meant by "worst possible time." whoa
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Aug 21, 2016 04:11
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fantasy zone posted:I'm sorry to say this but bleeding edge is not that good and worth skipping in favor of like any of his other novels I really disliked Bleeding Edge. It lacks everything that makes Pynchon fun except for the meticulous pop culture research (the book directly references Dragonball Z, refers to Prince Vegeta by his title, and a character at one point namedrops Hideo Kojima ["or as he's known in my crew, God"])
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Aug 21, 2016 04:35
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david crosby posted:Yowza! Guess I'll skip it for a few years. I didn't think it was that difficult. Gravity's Rainbow is the hardest I've read just given how it falls apart.
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Aug 21, 2016 04:37
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If you're reading Gravity's Rainbow for the first time, I advise you to go along for the ride and not try too hard to understand everything that happens for now. That's how I did it.
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Aug 21, 2016 08:24
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V. is the best Pynchon book to read if it's your first.
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Aug 21, 2016 10:13
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I'm reading Gravity's Rainbow, and it's beautifully written and all, but I gotta take a breather from it after the whole Slothrop fucks a little kid thing. Maybe I'm a bleeding heart but it's tough to think of a narrative purpose for that which doesn't skeeve me out badly. And I get that being skeeved is the point but ugh. I'll still probably finish it soon, as there's definitely more good than bad, but that poo poo just got to me
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Aug 21, 2016 14:58
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DoctorG0nzo posted:I'm reading Gravity's Rainbow, and it's beautifully written and all, but I gotta take a breather from it after the whole Slothrop fucks a little kid thing. Maybe I'm a bleeding heart but it's tough to think of a narrative purpose for that which doesn't skeeve me out badly. And I get that being skeeved is the point but ugh. I get this, though I took it as a perversion and destruction of innocence. Slothrop, who so far treads on the positives of his moral compass, wants to protect and rescue Bianca, but ultimately joins in/falls victim to the perversion. It's hard to be a saint when you're lost at sea with a crew of perverts. While it doesn't justify it, this is nothing new to her, and Slothrop becomes another step in the cycle. It's only when he finds Bianca dead that he realizes how hosed everything is, how hosed he is, and leads to his ultimate unwinding resolution. Not an easy section to read, but it holds a deep significance in Slothrop's journey, of which I am only scratching the surface. That whole section is crazed and disturbing.
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Aug 21, 2016 15:37
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Franchescanado posted:I get this, though I took it as a perversion and destruction of innocence. Slothrop, who so far treads on the positives of his moral compass, wants to protect and rescue Bianca, but ultimately joins in/falls victim to the perversion. It's hard to be a saint when you're lost at sea with a crew of perverts. While it doesn't justify it, this is nothing new to her, and Slothrop becomes another step in the cycle. It's only when he finds Bianca dead that he realizes how hosed everything is, how hosed he is, and leads to his ultimate unwinding resolution. I have a feeling that it's something that will make more sense thematically once I've read the rest. I already have a general outline of what happens - with an undertaking like Gravity's Rainbow, I don't really care about spoilers. It seems like the episode fits well thematically, but just...eurgh. But hell, if I made it through Pudding swallowing poo poo, I'll make it through this.
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Aug 21, 2016 17:38
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DoctorG0nzo posted:I have a feeling that it's something that will make more sense thematically once I've read the rest. I already have a general outline of what happens - with an undertaking like Gravity's Rainbow, I don't really care about spoilers. It seems like the episode fits well thematically, but just...eurgh. I think that the Pudding scene is much less disturbing, because he seems like sort of a bad dude + eating poop is funny. The Bianca scene is really messed up, to me, becuz Slothrop is our main character, whom we've been rooting for and want to see succeed like a normal 'good guy'; and the tone of the section is pretty ambiguous in like a moral sense. Plus Pynchon describes the stuff really vividly so it reads as pornography, it's freaking gross dude.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:12
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david crosby posted:I think that the Pudding scene is much less disturbing, because he seems like sort of a bad dude + eating poop is funny. The Bianca scene is really messed up, to me, becuz Slothrop is our main character, whom we've been rooting for and want to see succeed like a normal 'good guy'; and the tone of the section is pretty ambiguous in like a moral sense. Plus Pynchon describes the stuff really vividly so it reads as pornography, it's freaking gross dude. That's probably why it affected me deeply enough to put down the book for about a week (whereas prior I'd been tearing through about 50 pages a day). The romanticized description of it was extremely off-putting. Like erotica only Pynchon made sure to put in reminders of her age in his descriptions. I'm sure my reaction is pretty much the intended reaction, I don't think he's a loving pedo (mentioning Lewis Carroll at the start of the chapter was a bit of a wink wink nudge nudge I figured) but the fact that there's no clear indication that "this is hosed up" (which apparently comes later) just makes it...ugh. Tough to get past
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Aug 21, 2016 18:44
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Sorry to detract from the Pynchon chat, but I just finished Disgrace for the second time since college and the ending messed me up so badly I adopted an elderly dog from the local shelter. I know that the animal shelter subplot was only a tiny portion of the narrative, but seriously gently caress Lurie for not saving that dog at the end.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:19
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DoctorG0nzo posted:That's probably why it affected me deeply enough to put down the book for about a week (whereas prior I'd been tearing through about 50 pages a day). The romanticized description of it was extremely off-putting. Like erotica only Pynchon made sure to put in reminders of her age in his descriptions. I'm sure my reaction is pretty much the intended reaction, I don't think he's a loving pedo (mentioning Lewis Carroll at the start of the chapter was a bit of a wink wink nudge nudge I figured) but the fact that there's no clear indication that "this is hosed up" (which apparently comes later) just makes it...ugh. Tough to get past Pynchon is good at taking you deep into dark depravity. It's just like the toilet diving scene, we are going to go to some really uncomfortable places and you're coming along for every bit of it. The whole scene is an exercise in uncomfortable taboo, and Pynchon takes off the gloves and doesn't treat it with the sort of detachment that another author would give you that would make it more palatable. The scene is powerful and repulsive because he doesn't pull punches in emphasizing the taboo aspects of it. It's one of the few books I know where the protagonist's arc goes entirely in reverse.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:32
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Heath posted:Pynchon is good at taking you deep into dark depravity. It's just like the toilet diving scene, we are going to go to some really uncomfortable places and you're coming along for every bit of it. The whole scene is an exercise in uncomfortable taboo, and Pynchon takes off the gloves and doesn't treat it with the sort of detachment that another author would give you that would make it more palatable. The scene is powerful and repulsive because he doesn't pull punches in emphasizing the taboo aspects of it. It's one of the few books I know where the protagonist's arc goes entirely in reverse. Exactly, which is why I said my reaction to it is exactly what Pynchon intended. When you actually read the scene there is constant emphasis on Bianca's age - he's almost infantilizing her. It's like the idea that he's not pulling his punches - every goddamn sentence in this scene you are being reminded of what it is that makes it terrible. It's certainly a scene with merit the more I think about it, but it's one I need to sit on a bit before I keep going. This conversation is helping me digest it better, or at least as well as I can considering it's supposed to be indigestible
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Aug 21, 2016 19:37
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DoctorG0nzo posted:Exactly, which is why I said my reaction to it is exactly what Pynchon intended. When you actually read the scene there is constant emphasis on Bianca's age - he's almost infantilizing her. It's like the idea that he's not pulling his punches - every goddamn sentence in this scene you are being reminded of what it is that makes it terrible. It's certainly a scene with merit the more I think about it, but it's one I need to sit on a bit before I keep going. What's more interesting, this discussion made me look up how old Bianca actually is. If they're right, Pynchon builds the taboo by physically describing her as very young, but gives you the facts to realize she may be much older, more appropriate for the time and country, just to blur the lines even more.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:56
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Holy poo poo I'm reading Parable of the Sower and it's so good. Maybe I just like books that deal with Christianity in terms of sociological phenomena
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Aug 21, 2016 19:59
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david crosby posted:I think that the Pudding scene is much less disturbing, because he seems like sort of a bad dude + eating poop is funny. The Bianca scene is really messed up, to me, becuz Slothrop is our main character, whom we've been rooting for and want to see succeed like a normal 'good guy'; and the tone of the section is pretty ambiguous in like a moral sense. Plus Pynchon describes the stuff really vividly so it reads as pornography, it's freaking gross dude. I feel the reverse. That scene with Pudding is what convinced me, at the time, that I liked reading Infinite Jest better than Gravity's Rainbow. I don't even remember the Bianca scene, even though I finished the book. I can't believe I didn't notice (or forgot) that it was treated as pedophilia by the narration
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Aug 21, 2016 23:31
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Solitair posted:I feel the reverse. That scene with Pudding is what convinced me, at the time, that I liked reading Infinite Jest better than Gravity's Rainbow. I don't even remember the Bianca scene, even though I finished the book. I can't believe I didn't notice (or forgot) that it was treated as pedophilia by the narration it wasn't, and that's why it was disturbing. He just says her age a lot, so it uh obviously is pedophilia, but it's written in like an 'erotic' way.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:51
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david crosby posted:it wasn't, and that's why it was disturbing. He just says her age a lot, so it uh obviously is pedophilia, but it's written in like an 'erotic' way. That would explain it. I'm getting in the habit of skimming over sex scenes because I don't trust most people to write sex scenes that are actually erotic, so if it was just a number that got brought up, as opposed to a detailed description of a man literally eating poo poo, also in the context of sex  , I can see why I wouldn't notice.
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Aug 22, 2016 00:14
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Having never read any Pynchon other than lot 49 makes watching this conversation fascinating
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Aug 22, 2016 01:43
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Having never read any Pynchon other than lot 49 makes watching this conversation fascinating I've read three and a half Pynchon novels (the half in question being Gravity's Rainbow, the other three being Lot 49, V and Inherent Vice). V was incredible, Inherent Vice was fun, Gravity's Rainbow is next level so far but as you can see is already making me uncomfortable. What I'm saying is he's great overall even if it makes me upset
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Aug 22, 2016 02:21
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Having never read any Pynchon other than lot 49 makes watching this conversation fascinating At this point the idea I have of Gravity's Rainbow has to be ten times what it actually is. I imagine something like a cross between Finnegan's Wake, but there are sections that are actually just a music score, shape poems of the daydreams one person has in the span of three nanoseconds that takes up 30 pages, and a chapter that's just an aircraft blueprint. Also, there are 500 characters with names like Glumpy and Dwight. R. Q. Catastrobomb.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:56
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Zesty Mordant posted:At this point the idea I have of Gravity's Rainbow has to be ten times what it actually is. I imagine something like a cross between Finnegan's Wake, but there are sections that are actually just a music score, shape poems of the daydreams one person has in the span of three nanoseconds that takes up 30 pages, and a chapter that's just an aircraft blueprint. Also, there are 500 characters with names like Glumpy and Dwight. R. Q. Catastrobomb. The names are better than that (Pirate Pretence) but yeah, mostly spot-on.
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Aug 22, 2016 02:59
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Snot soup.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:05
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Zesty Mordant posted:At this point the idea I have of Gravity's Rainbow has to be ten times what it actually is. I imagine something like a cross between Finnegan's Wake, but there are sections that are actually just a music score, shape poems of the daydreams one person has in the span of three nanoseconds that takes up 30 pages, and a chapter that's just an aircraft blueprint. Also, there are 500 characters with names like Glumpy and Dwight. R. Q. Catastrobomb. It actually hasn't been as devastatingly complex as I expected so far. Like, very very complex, but I read Ulysses earlier in the year and compared to that it's practically a standard narrative. I am also not finished yet, however, and I fully expect it to go tits-up soon
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Aug 22, 2016 03:07
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