|
yeah but capitalism has been pretty well defined than just bad poo poo corporations do. it’s about the exploitation of the working class through wage slavery, and taking all the surplus value from the workers and keeping it for the ruling class. it's about the exploitation of one class by another. it's about the bourgeois (the ruling class, the billionaires, etc.) owning all the factories, the capital, and the land in a state to pretty much call the shots and run the place. this is why social democracy is doomed to fail - as long as the ruling class still have all the power, they can slowly dismantle all the protections and safety nets that have been brought up as we've seen over the last 30 years. and all the homeless people, poverty, wars, climate change, etc seem to disagree with you. im pretty sure some people thought feudalism was working pretty freaking swell before it was replaced by capitalism through revolution too. some of these things, like the never ending wars, unemployment, etc. can be argued are direct causes of capitalism and imperialism.
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:13 |
|
|
Constant Hamprince posted:
It's handling industrialization, finance, humanitarian rights, climate change and poverty in an atrocious way, actually. The whole point of revolutionary left is to kinda move past this, while understanding the current system is in constant crisis because of a nuanced, antagonistic class relation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 07:42
|
|
|
Constant Hamprince posted:also relative to the other 99% of recorded human history modern capitalism is working pretty drat good I mean, yeah, and I'm pretty sure even Marx said the same basically, it is a progressive force that overturned the busted poo poo came before. We're not moving into that 99% of history, though, because time doesn't work that way. We're going into the future. So what counts are its likely prospects.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 07:46
|
|
|
Capitalism works so great it's fundamentally unsustainable, and threatens to doom global civilization.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 08:00
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Capitalism works so great it's fundamentally unsustainable, and threatens to doom global civilization. Constant Hamprince posted:also relative to the other 99% of recorded human history modern capitalism is working pretty drat good
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 08:05
|
|
|
i mean i'm not dining on poo poo stew every night so i'd say things could be worse
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 08:05
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:i mean i'm not dining on poo poo stew every night so i'd say things could be worse The global need for capital to multiply itself is pretty much over. Industrialization and the division of labor makes better dinners possible now, capitalism as a system just determines who appropriates surplus value (a very small number of people).
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 08:15
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:i mean i'm not dining on poo poo stew every night so i'd say things could be worse Resource exhaustion and ecological collapse sound bad but I'm doing fine right now...
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 09:43
|
|
|
Capitalists may be literally stealing what remains of our water supply but the free market and nonprofit industrial complex will fix it!!!
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 13:00
|
|
|
Urbandale posted:i can probably answer actual questions about the party now that my city has calmed down a bit you might want to come back after this next round of sniping by dull nerds
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 13:32
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:i mean i'm not dining on poo poo stew every night so i'd say things could be worse You are aware that we just passed the atmospheric co2 concentrations needed to cause runaway global warming? I would have to guess not because a system that causes mass-extinction events is typically understood to not be working well
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 14:03
|
|
|
Lord Constant Hamprince posted:also relative to the other 99% of recorded human history modern feudalism is working pretty drat good fixed
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 14:31
|
|
|
Marinol posted:yeah but capitalism has been pretty well defined than just bad poo poo corporations do. it’s about the exploitation of the working class through wage slavery, and taking all the surplus value from the workers and keeping it for the ruling class. it's about the exploitation of one class by another. it's about the bourgeois (the ruling class, the billionaires, etc.) owning all the factories, the capital, and the land in a state to pretty much call the shots and run the place. this is why social democracy is doomed to fail - as long as the ruling class still have all the power, they can slowly dismantle all the protections and safety nets that have been brought up as we've seen over the last 30 years. Ruling classes have power by definition and socialism has a ruling class (and in a command economy a more concentrated one). The foolishness of Marxism is to be sure that money and capital are special forms of power (and/or to take a single guys word for it).
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
um yeah, they're obviously replacing one ruling class with another: the whole point is that the working class replace the bourgeois as rulers, and eventually the end goal is a classless, stateless society. and lol at the idea that capital doesn't give you power in this society
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 17:24
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Capitalism works so great it's fundamentally unsustainable, and threatens to doom global civilization. Socialism doesn't exactly have a sterling record on the same counts either tbh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 17:36
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Socialism doesn't exactly have a sterling record on the same counts either tbh. Admittedly not, however a socialist society is more capable of taking corrective action because its decision making faculties are determined by political action rather than market stimuli. A socialist society could still make the wrong choice, but at least a choice has been made - rather than consigning yourself to the deterministic logic of growth and profit under the direction of capital.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Admittedly not, however a socialist society is more capable of taking corrective action because its decision making faculties are determined by political action rather than market stimuli. A socialist society could still make the wrong choice, but at least a choice has been made - rather than consigning yourself to the deterministic logic of growth and profit under the direction of capital. Capitalism has government too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 22:40
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Capitalism has government too. One utterly beholden to "some banana workers tried to unionize, guess we gotta invade Panama on behalf of United Fruit," yes. edit: forgot I was talking to asdf32. Just so you know, asdf32: the phrase "banana republic"'s origin was not a mall store. Its origin was the observed historical fact that whenever democratic governance becomes inconvenient to capitalist interests, capitalism lobbies both hard and successfully to remove it. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 22:43
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Ruling classes have power by definition and socialism has a ruling class (and in a command economy a more concentrated one). I don't care about 20th century socialism, it can be critiqued, whatever. But, I don't know, you understand we live in a world were capitalism is a global force (like, really don't take this lightly), a vanguard, in theory, is an isolated, temporary project to prepare for socialism as a next stage (a classless, stateless society), not socialism itself. These socialist countries are doing what is necessary in a global capitalist world and use that framework, not a socialist world, the point is to change the framework... Deimus fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Oct 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 22:55
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Capitalism has government too.  quote:U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) is a U.S. Army Veteran. He is the Chairman of the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2016 23:05
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:One utterly beholden to "some banana workers tried to unionize, guess we gotta invade Panama on behalf of United Fruit," yes. Right, the elite officers of United Fruit get whatever they want from the (capitalist) democratic state but the [elite] officers of "Collective Fruit", now with no competition and complete monopoly will definitely be held in check by the (socialist) democratic state. Might be easier to believe if real life socialist states didn't fail precisely because they were unable to check the power of their elite. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Non sequitur. Global warming is bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:08
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Might be easier to believe if real life socialist states didn't fail precisely because they were unable to check the power of their elite. so do you like purges now or what
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:19
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Right, the elite officers of United Fruit get whatever they want from the (capitalist) democratic state but the [elite] officers of "Collective Fruit", now with no competition and complete monopoly will definitely be held in check by the (socialist) democratic state. It is good you concede that capitalist government is effortlessly suborned towards the whims of capital whenever they might conflict with democracy, asdf32. It is unfortunate, but not surprising, that you fail to recognize the Chairman of the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee being an avowed global warming denialist in the pocket of the oil industry might be another indication of this problem. I do have to ask- why are the officers of Collective Fruit going to want to coup a country for the crime of its workers unionizing there?
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:22
|
|
|
Marinol posted:um yeah, they're obviously replacing one ruling class with another: the whole point is that the working class replace the bourgeois as rulers, and eventually the end goal is a classless, stateless society. lol how's that working out for u "class is an inevitable result of the division of labour, but uh don't worry we're totally gonna transcend that when we achieve full communism, just keep hewing that coal comrade" *speeds on in east german limo*
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
Marinol posted:yeah but clearly capitalism isn't working, and even social democracy is starting to show its cracks in Europe. if we truly want a just society, we have to change who calls the shots and how things are run. otherwise poo poo will get worse and worse until there is nothing left. social democracy is just taping over the cracks temporarily while they continue to get bigger. socialists have being saying this since literally the mid 1800s and yet here we are
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:32
|
|
|
Constant Hamprince posted:lol how's that working out for u Are you part of some in-joke that I'm not aware of or are you actually this tedious.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 00:51
|
|
|
Constant Hamprince posted:lol how's that working out for u Class is a description of the individual's relationship to how important economic and political decisions are made. There will be no class distinctions and therefor no class when everyone wields the same degree of control over political and economic decisions.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 01:05
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Right, the elite officers of United Fruit get whatever they want from the (capitalist) democratic state but the [elite] officers of "Collective Fruit", now with no competition and complete monopoly will definitely be held in check by the (socialist) democratic state. In a truly socialist system, the elite officers of Collective Fruit will be elected administrators and their decisions will subjected to approval by the worker's councils.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 01:08
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:Class is a description of the individual's relationship to how important economic and political decisions are made. There will be no class distinctions and therefor no class when everyone wields the same degree of control over political and economic decisions. that being none, when the single conglomeration of financial sector algorithms optimizing to concentrate wealth managing everything fires the last human executive
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 01:11
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:In a truly socialist system, the elite officers of Collective Fruit will be elected administrators and their decisions will subjected to approval by the worker's councils. The Guatemala coup of 1954 was carried out by a democratically elected government
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 01:48
|
|
|
Typo posted:socialists have being saying this since literally the mid 1800s and yet here we are "Laffo at those city state Greek and their crappy democracy, good ridance, now, what to eat? Loyal serf! fetch another awful super salty piece of meat"
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 02:00
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:In a truly socialist system, the elite officers of Collective Fruit will be elected administrators and their decisions will subjected to approval by the worker's councils. Like USA elected representatives who oversee market regulations etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 02:23
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Like USA elected representatives who oversee market regulations etc. yes they're the same thing
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 02:27
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
Fados posted:"Laffo at those city state Greek and their crappy democracy, good ridance, now, what to eat? Loyal serf! fetch another awful super salty piece of meat" Right, another reason why assuming that a democracy means that the electorate of one country won't vote to screw over another, weaker, country is naive at best
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:03
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:yes they're the same thing The part where officials are elected to represent the people is similar. So is that part where those officials are required to check the power of industry. In one system the checks may end there. The other system adds competition and consumer markets.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:17
|
|
|
Typo posted:Right, another reason why assuming that a democracy means that the electorate of one country won't vote to screw over another, weaker, country is naive at best
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:20
|
|
|
rudatron posted:Sure, which is why global communism is the answer. I don't know about this, historically communist countries have screwed each other a lot too (see PRC/Vietnam/USSR)
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:22
|
|
|
All 3 of those countries have major flaws I wouldn't want to replicate, but ideally yippy would have one system internationally, not separate national systems.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:13 |
|
|
asdf32 posted:The part where officials are elected to represent the people is similar. So is that part where those officials are required to check the power of industry. In one system the checks may end there. The other system adds competition and consumer markets. Officials are not elected to check the power of industry under socialism. Administration of industry is chosen from the factory floor on up to manage all aspects of production according to the interests of the workers. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 6, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2016 03:28
|
|