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jackhunter64 posted:Yep. He's also McGillis in the Iron Blooded Orphans dub. And Seabook. Probably his best role actually. He's not *bad* as Shiro but I felt he was miscast. Still surprised that Shiro is probably the oldest Gundam protagonist outside of zeta and CCA Amuro.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:35
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Arcsquad12 posted:And Seabook. Probably his best role actually. He's not *bad* as Shiro but I felt he was miscast. Still surprised that Shiro is probably the oldest Gundam protagonist outside of zeta and CCA Amuro. Setsuna is 23 in A Wakening of the Trailblazer too, and if you count Flit as the main character of Gundam AGE, then you see him in to his 60's or something. Io Fleming is probably old as Gundam protagonists go too, though I couldn't find an age for him on a quick Google.
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Feb 8, 2017 20:10
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tsob posted:Setsuna is 23 in A Wakening of the Trailblazer too, and if you count Flit as the main character of Gundam AGE, then you see him in to his 60's or something. Io Fleming is probably old as Gundam protagonists go too, though I couldn't find an age for him on a quick Google. I think Flemming is 22. That still puts Shiro as the oldest protag in his first appearance discounting sequel series or films. Apart from the obvious unlikable cast and out of nowhere ending idiocy, why does this thread dislike 0083 so strongly? It's definitely a weaker entry and probably the worst UC series, but I don't find it terrible or unwatchable. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 20:52
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I'm pretty sure you nailed the two major complaints right there. 0083 is pretty and has good music, but gently caress is the cast full of lovely people and the ending bad.
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Feb 10, 2017 10:05
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I generally enjoy unlikable characters but the 0083 cast is written so terribly that there's nothing compelling about them, it's like the most interesting thing they went for is a cheesy meta joke about one of the voice actors.
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Feb 10, 2017 11:30
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Arcsquad12 posted:Apart from the obvious unlikable cast and out of nowhere ending idiocy, why does this thread dislike 0083 so strongly? It's definitely a weaker entry and probably the worst UC series, but I don't find it terrible or unwatchable. Having rewatched 0083 pretty recently to show it to a friend who had never seen it, I was pretty much blown away by how bad the writing is. First, the focus characters are nearly insufferable. The three focal characters are Kou, Nina, and Gato, which is absolutely tragic because they are three of the worst characters in the Gundam franchise as a whole. Kou starts off as relatively innocuous but descends into consistently making decisions so stupid and nonsensical that they border on farcical, like taking the GP-01 out into space because it's "his Gundam" despite being told it literally won't function in space and being offered a GM Custom as a temporary replacement, or committing literal treason helping Kelly build the Val Varo despite witnessing Kelly taking cash from the Delaz Fleet and then acting surprised when Kelly fights against him. Some of Kou's last actions in the field are opening fire on and murdering initially non-resisting allied combatants like the Cima fleet because he's angry and frustrated, and his last scene in a mobile suit is him opening fire on Federation reinforcements because he's having a crying tantrum. Nina starts the series as a competent and driven engineer character who is laser-focused on her chosen profession but a little naive when it comes to understanding what it means to build death machines, but due to the director changes and the direction the writing takes her she ends up being entirely defined by her relationship to Kou and later Gato; almost every scene she's in past the first few episodes involves her either being annoyed at Kou, sighing wistfully out of a window while thinking of Kou/Gato, or crying at Kou/Gato. Finally, we have Gato, who is basically a tape recorder that someone yelled "SIEG ZEON" into and then put on repeat. At no point is Gato shown to have any meaningful motivations or character beats beyond total, singleminded devotion to the ideal of Zeon. He's not shown to be a decent human being who happens to be fighting for the wrong side like Ramba Ral or Norris, or a self-serving advancement seeker like M'Quve, or a ruthless political operator like Haman, or even a battle lover like Dozle. He's just a bland robot spouting pro-Zeonic platitudes whenever the camera pans over him, even when he's alone in his moments of reflection. This would be fine if he was a background character, except he's not; he's basically the only antagonist given any screen time or buildup and he's the designated rival to the protagonist. The antagonist side of things pretty much hangs entirely on him since Cima is the only other "antagonist" and is never presented as a personal threat to the Albion after their initial meeting. This is just the terribleness of the main characters, not even counting the odiousness of some side characters like Bernard loving Monsha. Lastly, I'm not sure this story needed to be told in an animated production. All of the actual interesting parts - the political maneuvering of the proto-Titans to put everything in place - all of this happens off screen by people who aren't focus characters. What is animated is basically the story of Kou yelling at Gato while Nina looks on longingly, which doesn't loving matter at all; all the important things in 0083 happen in the background peripherally to them. The entire Delaz Fleet is such a nothing of an antagonist that they achieve literally all of their objectives in the most stunningly successful way possible but ultimately accomplish nothing besides triggering the creation of an organization bent on destroying all they believe in. Shows like 08th MS Team and 0080 work because they are small scale, focused stories set with the backdrop of a larger conflict happening around them. There is no small, focused story for 0083 to hang on besides Kou vs Gato, and that rivalry simply isn't interesting because Gato is a colorless nothing of a character and Kou is intensely stupid and unlikeable. Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 13:51
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Gato was nice to Kou, even chastising him for saluting Gato himself, so he did have a tiny sliver of character. Other than that though I agree with you, and would probably put Gato as one of the most boring antagonists in the franchise. Edit: I don't like that 0083 turns the creation of the Titans from a general reaction by the Federation to Zeon and the One Year War in to a conspiracy based on a different event either. It wasn't something that needed explanation, and 0083's version of events is actively worse than the implied version Zeta originally had. tsob fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 14:00
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0083 provokes such strong reaction in parts of the fanbase not just for being bad, but actively squandering a lot of potential to tell an interesting story because of the bad characters and plot that ultimately ends up wallowing in its own self-importance and melodrama. It's kind of like 00 in that regard.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:24
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Eh, I've never felt there was a whole lot of potential in the time period it covers. I've never felt the origin of the Titans needed to be that fleshed out since I always figured, MSG had elements of WWII in space, and Zeta had some elements of the occupation of Japan, in space.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:35
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In fairness, I think when it started smaller with just the task force, a weapons developer, and a stolen nuke it was actually laying a foundation for what could have been an interesting series if it had stayed focused on those elements and had better characters to move things along. It's after a few episodes when it becomes clear that Kou's a dumbass, Nina is actively becoming a worse character, Gato is a fascist strawman, and the writers have no concept of restraint that it falls apart.
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Feb 10, 2017 14:41
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That makes sense. Plot differs from narrative and presentation anyways. Plot for 0083 is interesting but just not presented well, taking a turn for the dumbest possible narrative. I won't say there is no merit to it at all, but man does it get dumb. As far as good things go, the stuff focusing on the zeon forces that aren't Gato or Delaz are interesting to me. I find the Kimbareid base forces crazy survivalist tendencies and Haman's forces taking a hands off approach to Delaz pretty fascinating. Watching the different ways postwar zeon splinter groups react to the loss is good stuff, even if they're still scumbags. I suppose another big trouble is how much zeon apologia is in the series, where it feels less like they want us to sympathize with the individual survivors (which is fine) than they do with the institution of zeon (which is definitely not fine). All the non Delaz Fleet zeon are these composed noble individuals who lost due to dirty federation trickery but look how well they care for people they're good guys honest! Never mind that Kelly's motivation twists from wanting to fly again to murdering innocents, it's all the federations fault you guys!
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Feb 10, 2017 17:45
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It is frustrating that the truth of space war politics is somewhere in the middle, yet every non-Tomino writer who handles the franchise puts one side or another on a pedestal. 0080 is the obvious exception.
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Feb 10, 2017 20:42
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TaurusOxford posted:He probably loves it - Most of the Gundams in that show will never get model kits. The best G Gundam tidbit Ive heard is that he designed the Master Gundam to be impossible to model with its ridiculous wing things but that just caused Bandai to develop better models that could handle it.
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Feb 10, 2017 21:20
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Shinjobi posted:It is frustrating that the truth of space war politics is somewhere in the middle, yet every non-Tomino writer who handles the franchise puts one side or another on a pedestal. 0080 is the obvious exception. Zeon are unambiguously evil
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Feb 10, 2017 21:33
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Only in some weird alternate reality where Degwin Zabi bumped his head on the doorframe utterly scrambling and reversing his personality is Zeon a good thing.
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Feb 10, 2017 21:42
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Dulkor posted:0083 provokes such strong reaction in parts of the fanbase not just for being bad, but actively squandering a lot of potential to tell an interesting story because of the bad characters and plot that ultimately ends up wallowing in its own self-importance and melodrama. It's kind of like 00 in that regard.
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Feb 10, 2017 21:50
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It also feels like a lot of the criticism for 0083 is more modern, or at least more wrt the western audience. I really wonder what the reaction to 0083 was back in the 90s when it first aired in Japan. Then again in Japan, SEED is considered super popular even to this day, so hearing their judgement might not mean much.
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Feb 10, 2017 21:58
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Improbable Lobster posted:Zeon are unambiguously evil The zabis are absolutely evil, and they're responsible for some awful atrocities. But I feel like the majority of Tomino stuff points out that rank and file soldiers don't fight for the same reasons as their ruling elite. The top brass of the federation are just as evil as the zabis, imo
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Feb 10, 2017 22:05
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This isn't zeon apologia either. I can't stand the zeon worship I see from time to time, I think the closest I ever came to fully sympathizing with zeon was in unicorn.
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Feb 10, 2017 22:08
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Shinjobi posted:The zabis are absolutely evil, and they're responsible for some awful atrocities. But I feel like the majority of Tomino stuff points out that rank and file soldiers don't fight for the same reasons as their ruling elite. The top brass of the federation are just as evil as the zabis, imo I assume it's not true, because I only heard it once from some random internet guy, but I heard that one of Tomino's goals with Gundam was to help little kids understand that how their granddad could be a good guy despite fighting for the bad guys.
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Feb 10, 2017 22:41
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Shinjobi posted:The zabis are absolutely evil, and they're responsible for some awful atrocities. But I feel like the majority of Tomino stuff points out that rank and file soldiers don't fight for the same reasons as their ruling elite. The top brass of the federation are just as evil as the zabis, imo Would you say they were just following orders? 
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Feb 11, 2017 01:35
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Improbable Lobster posted:Would you say they were just following orders? Oh noooooooo, what have I done?! 
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Feb 11, 2017 02:52
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Shinjobi posted:The zabis are absolutely evil, and they're responsible for some awful atrocities. But I feel like the majority of Tomino stuff points out that rank and file soldiers don't fight for the same reasons as their ruling elite. The top brass of the federation are just as evil as the zabis, imo There's no real equivalency between the Federation and Zeon. The Federation at their absolute worst still doesn't come within a light year of Zeon at their absolute worst. Prior to and at the onset of the OYW, the top brass of the Federation are guilty of corruption and lazy indifference to the economic plight of the colonists and poor earthnoids. Zeon's top brass is guilty of launching a war of conquest that lead to the genocide of half the population of humanity in a period of a couple of weeks. Basically every outright evil aspect of the Federation we see, like the Titans, is a direct emotional and political reaction to the nightmare that Zeon created; even the Titans at their worst merely ape Zeonic atrocities from years before like colony gassings. CCA is a good example of this, actually. The Federation elite in the movie are portrayed as cowardly appeasers who are willing to abandon the lower class to die in droves as long as they themselves are safe. The Zeon elite in the movie are the ones actively attempting to loving murder everyone. Just following orders isn't an excuse and never is an excuse when your bosses are omnicidal murderers.
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Feb 11, 2017 04:18
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I don't care what anyone else says I still love 0083, and this thread cannot convince me otherwise 
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Feb 11, 2017 06:23
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Reset Smith posted:I don't care what anyone else says I still love 0083, and this thread cannot convince me otherwise How very Gato of you.
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Feb 11, 2017 06:43
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Reset Smith posted:I don't care what anyone else says I still love 0083, and this thread cannot convince me otherwise There is stuff to like. I broached the question because I am curious as to how far the extent of its dislike goes. But I totally get why it is the weakest show. Gundam lives and breathes on its characters and story, and 0083 just cannot contend with other series in that regard. I find the premise much more interesting than the execution. Zeon holdouts looking for a final blaze of glory with a big statement denouncing the weakness of the Federation is an interesting premise. Unicorn did it better by showing how the ideals of Zeon are poison that is slowly killing those loyal to it, as seen in Episode 4. The Zeon remnants on Earth are manipulated by the higher powers in Neo Zeon to get their "glory" while sacrificing themselves needlessly but willingly. The Delaz Fleet, on the other hand, has no such morality at play, because they're all diehard Zabi fans with kamikaze attitudes towards death. There isn't anything tragic about their continued resistance. The closest the show gets is with Neuen Bitters' Kimbareid base, and even Bitters gives up his own life for Operation Stardust, without even knowing the details.
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Feb 11, 2017 07:38
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Kanos posted:There's no real equivalency between the Federation and Zeon. The Federation at their absolute worst still doesn't come within a light year of Zeon at their absolute worst. Yknow, it is really loving weird how often I forget about the goddamn colony drop.
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Feb 11, 2017 07:41
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Shinjobi posted:Yknow, it is really loving weird how often I forget about the goddamn colony drop. 
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Feb 11, 2017 08:18
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It only took out Sydney and Canberra, so most Aussies would probably consider it a favour.
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Feb 11, 2017 08:27
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It only took out Sydney and Canberra, so most Aussies would probably consider it a favour. Hell, the Lingering debris cloud probably made the following summer nice and cool!
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Feb 11, 2017 09:34
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e:oops
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Feb 11, 2017 13:50
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Kanos posted:CCA is a good example of this, actually. The Federation elite in the movie are portrayed as cowardly appeasers who are willing to abandon the lower class to die in droves as long as they themselves are safe. The Zeon elite in the movie are the ones actively attempting to loving murder everyone. Just following orders isn't an excuse and never is an excuse when your bosses are omnicidal murderers. I think the Federation are actually portrayed as fairly good in Char's Counterattack personally. Char is threatening them with colony destruction as well as giving them money, which they apparently need they're so broke. They could authorize black ops units like Londo Bell to attack Neo Zeon, but they mostly just want to resolve things peacefully and financially from the little we see and Londo Bell has to pursue them alone and without real authorization. They even offer jobs to all the Neo Zeon staff that Char says will be rendered unemployeed by the disarmament of his fleet. The Federation do relent and attack Char, but only after he's made it clear he's going to try and destroy Earth's current environment. They give the guy every possible chance despite Char obviously forcing things, and only really go against him in the finale. The Federation's rulers are callous and corrupt in a lot of ways, especially in ZZ, but I think they're shown as pretty decent in Char's Counterattack. Which isn't to say they're not wrong in their assessment of things of course, since appeasement isn't always a good idea, but they gave a decent shake at resolving things peacefully at least. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 15:07
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I couldn't really see the Federation that way after the events of ZZ, for what it's worth. Their appeasement to Char felt more like a nonchalance to a threat to the earth, and continued corruption that put their own wealth before the needs of their people. Granted, I've already demonstrated that I've forgotten and misread some other stuff in UC.
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Feb 11, 2017 17:09
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It's been a while but I thought they were being dumb and callous about selling him a big droppable rock
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Feb 11, 2017 17:15
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DamnGlitch posted:It's been a while but I thought they were being dumb and callous about selling him a big droppable rock The only time we see them as far as I know is in the actual meeting where Axis is sold, but they're never indicated to be dumb or callous there really, just corporate. Adaneur Paraya though indicates to Bright that Char has forced the issue by threatening to destroy colonies if they don't sell Axis, and that they basically have to anyway because they need the money from the sale for their welfare schemes. The only real callousness I can think of in the film is Adaneur himself taking Mirai and her kids spot on the flight off Earth at the start of the film, which is strange anyways, because he's taking a commercial flight at the last second for a business dealing and you'd think that such an important deal would at least guarantee him a booked spot on a special flight or something. I don't recall anything about mass exoduses of Federation officials off Earth, though I could certainly be forgetting bits too.
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Feb 11, 2017 18:23
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I bought an old Zeta Gundam handbook at the used bookstore, published around the time the compilation films were coming out. It's mostly a pretty standard overview but there's a bonus section in the back where they assess the Zeta men's romantic viability and Quattro's dressing down in particular is so brutal, so utterly savage, I just had to translate it... Although to be fair, everyone's romances in Zeta are catastrophically bad.
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Feb 12, 2017 05:27
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Actually Part of the Bourgeois is the most incredible statistic I've ever seen
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Feb 12, 2017 05:31
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Harsh but fair.
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Feb 12, 2017 05:40
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dazat posted:I bought an old Zeta Gundam handbook at the used bookstore, published around the time the compilation films were coming out. It's mostly a pretty standard overview but there's a bonus section in the back where they assess the Zeta men's romantic viability and Quattro's dressing down in particular is so brutal, so utterly savage, I just had to translate it... 
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Feb 12, 2017 05:43
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That sounds about right.
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Feb 12, 2017 05:44
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