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Moose_Knuck posted:It reeks of Khorne to me, but it is possible that it could be a different type of power. According to one of the 40k wikis, "Many worlds found whirling within the Maelstrom's depths have been tainted by Chaos in some way, while others have been touched by the lapping of stranger tides yet. " While Fenris resides near the Eye of Terror (and not the Maelstrom), it's possible that the energies there could be different from the Warp. Being touched by the Warp doesn't mean Chaos, that seems to be a specific reference to the Pantheon and the malevolent sentiences. There could well be other forces in there the Wolves call on that are less, intelligent? I guess, than the Pantheon. Sort of like a planet spirit of Fenris. If they've been in communion with it since the Age of Strife then it's probably pretty safe. The Warp is not terribly well explained but there are clearly different parts to it, the Web Way is made of structures in deeper parts it that seem to be more stable than the parts ships travel through.
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May 13, 2017 20:55
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MrNemo posted:Being touched by the Warp doesn't mean Chaos, that seems to be a specific reference to the Pantheon and the malevolent sentiences. There could well be other forces in there the Wolves call on that are less, intelligent? I guess, than the Pantheon. Sort of like a planet spirit of Fenris. If they've been in communion with it since the Age of Strife then it's probably pretty safe. Whoa, lookit this guy gon' get corrupted hardcore. - - - In all seriousness, I think it's established that the warp is indeed chaos. Chaos and those "malevolent intelligences" are not just a part of the warp; they are the warp. You can maybe use that stuff without dying, but you're still playing with fire that wants to eat you. I think the explanation for the webway is that it's basically outside of it.
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May 13, 2017 21:07
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MrNemo posted:Being touched by the Warp doesn't mean Chaos, that seems to be a specific reference to the Pantheon and the malevolent sentiences. There could well be other forces in there the Wolves call on that are less, intelligent? I guess, than the Pantheon. Sort of like a planet spirit of Fenris. If they've been in communion with it since the Age of Strife then it's probably pretty safe. The Pantheon has existed since before humankind came about, and the one quality that the Ruinous Power possess is patience, at least when it comes to converting new followers (once they convert it's a different story though...). The Chaos Gods know everything that goes on in the warp, so the chances of the Space Wolves channeling another being that is beyond control of the Ruinous Powers is highly unlikely. The Wulfen mutation seems consistent with Khorne, to me, also. While he may not be overtly trying to influence them (yet), I believe it is still Khorne's power that they are using.
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May 13, 2017 21:12
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DirtyRobot posted:Whoa, lookit this guy gon' get corrupted hardcore. They go into this in The Path of Heaven. It's...pretty much the exact opposite of what you wrote. The webway charts the deepests part of the warp, and chaos congregates on the "shallow", more easily accessibly parts of it.
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May 13, 2017 21:15
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Mechafunkzilla posted:They go into this in The Path of Heaven. It's...pretty much the exact opposite of what you wrote. The webway charts the deepests part of the warp, and chaos congregates on the "shallow", more easily accessibly parts of it. Or does it? Nobody in Warhammer is a reliable narrator when it comes to the nature of the Warp, not only because everyone has their own agendas and interpretations in universe but also because GW retcons it every other week if they figure out a new way to sell a figurine.
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May 13, 2017 21:26
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Literally if its any chaos god (its not) it would be tzeench since there is literally an entire legion dedicated to hating the space wolves who follow him and his entire deal is mutations. Khorne does not do the whole sorcery and insidious mutation deal and wulfen don't go on murder rampages against everything. Its just a hosed up mutation of their geneseed likely due to the genetic foundation of many of the colonist that they draw from plus the weird Canus Helix they drink. The blood angels have the whole vampire thing going on which is way more khornate anyways. Warp fuckery can cause an increase or spontaneous increase in wulfen but its not the cause of it. Geneseed poo poo can do weird things, seem the Laminators, the Flame Falcons, and the Black Dragons. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:01 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 21:29
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Telsa Cola posted:Khorne does not do the whole sorcery and insidious mutation deal and wulfen don't go on murder rampages against everything. Manipulation and insidious mutation isn't Khorne's thing, it's Tzeentch's--I agree with that. The mutation the wulfen undergo, though, are designed to increase their prowess in battle--something that Khorne is known for. While, yes, they don't go on murderous rampages (yet), I believe it is because Khorne hasn't gotten his hooks into them yet. I'm not 100% familiar with how Khorne corrupts, but I think it has something to do with slowly pouring power into individuals over time until they become addicted to the fury and bloodlust. According to one of the 40k wikis, "The presence of the Canis Helix, it has been argued, is also linked to the Chapter's almost uncontrollable aggression, bordering on frenzy in combat possibly due to violent overstimulation of their enhanced senses." It is slowly working it's way in.
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May 13, 2017 22:00
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Mechafunkzilla posted:They go into this in The Path of Heaven. It's...pretty much the exact opposite of what you wrote. The webway charts the deepests part of the warp, and chaos congregates on the "shallow", more easily accessibly parts of it. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Or does it? Nobody in Warhammer is a reliable narrator when it comes to the nature of the Warp, not only because everyone has their own agendas and interpretations in universe but also because GW retcons it every other week if they figure out a new way to sell a figurine. I skipped Path of Heaven. I was going by vague recollections of way old eldar codexes I read like fifteen years ago, and a quick glance at the warhammer 40k wikia site, but I like the idea that the normal explanation is "yeah, it's cool, the Old Ones made it safe from the Warp, since really it's  in between dimensions blah blah whatever," but it turns out this is a half truth and it's even deeper into the warp than what we usually see.
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May 13, 2017 22:01
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Moose_Knuck posted:Manipulation and insidious mutation isn't Khorne's thing, it's Tzeentch's--I agree with that. The mutation the wulfen undergo, though, are designed to increase their prowess in battle--something that Khorne is known for. While, yes, they don't go on murderous rampages (yet), I believe it is because Khorne hasn't gotten his hooks into them yet. I'm not 100% familiar with how Khorne corrupts, but I think it has something to do with slowly pouring power into individuals over time until they become addicted to the fury and bloodlust. According to one of the 40k wikis, "The presence of the Canis Helix, it has been argued, is also linked to the Chapter's almost uncontrollable aggression, bordering on frenzy in combat possibly due to violent overstimulation of their enhanced senses." It is slowly working it's way in. You are seeing it as something that was designed or deliberately induced, its not its literally their geneseed loving up when mixed with the genetic muddle that is Fenrisian genes. The Black Dragons literally have bone swords growing out of their arms and they are extremely loyal to the Imperium to the point the survived an Inquisitional purge with only the non mutated ones being found at fault. And the Flame Falcons literally burst into flame that would not harm them but burn the poo poo out of chaos. They arguably might fall to Khorne because their geneseed is loving up but Khorne or the warp is in no way the cause of it. Also it can be argued that the uncontrollable aggression that the space wolves exhibit is a front to throw people of guard. They routinely out plan the inquisition and tzeencth warhosts for example. Russ himself was noted as being extremely brilliant but often relied on his renown and appearance of a barbarian so people would underestimate him. They are politically savy enough that the Navigator houses use them as bodyguards. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 22:03
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Telsa Cola posted:You are seeing it as something that was designed or deliberately induced, its not its literally their geneseed loving up when mixed with the genetic muddle that is Fenrisian genes. The Black Dragons literally have bone swords growing out of their arms and they are extremely loyal to the Imperium. And the Flame Falcons literally burst into flame that would not harm them but burn the poo poo out of chaos. I subscribe to the opinion that corruption in geneseeds are due to a touch of the warp. While there are biological processes going on in the 40k universe that we don't fully understand, it is kind of suspect that these mutations happen more frequently with the presence of warp storms.
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May 13, 2017 22:10
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Moose_Knuck posted:I subscribe to the opinion that corruption in geneseeds are due to a touch of the warp. While there are biological processes going on in the 40k universe that we don't fully understand, it is kind of suspect that these mutations happen more frequently with the presence of warp storms. Except for almost every legion and chapter has a corrupted geneseed in someway, the imperial fists cant use their acid glands anymore and other chapters have various 'features' disables due to geneseed corruption. Its pretty much stated that everybody but a few people have no idea how geneseed works and that corruption of geneseed throughout time is a big deal. Hell, some traitor chapters have really pure geneseed despite living in the warp constantly.
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May 13, 2017 22:15
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Shroud posted:I'd have no problem believing the Warmaster if he said the Emperor wanted the Thousand Sons destroyed. Yeah, no one can blame Russ for assuming Magnus's Execution was a legit order. It came from the Emperor's Warmaster, and the Emperor made it pretty clear he wasn't going to tolerate bullshit at Nikea. The owner was the blame, not the dog itself.
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May 13, 2017 22:24
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Telsa Cola posted:Except for almost every legion and chapter has a corrupted geneseed in someway, the imperial fists cant use their acid glands anymore and other chapters have various 'features' disables due to geneseed corruption. Its pretty much stated that everybody but a few people have no idea how geneseed works and that corruption of geneseed throughout time is a big deal. Valid point. Not all geneseed corruption necessarily has to be caused by the warp. My problem is with the geneseed corruption that causes substantial physical mutation and can be repeated with exposure to warp energy. There seems to be a correlation there.
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May 13, 2017 22:26
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Moose_Knuck posted:Valid point. Not all geneseed corruption necessarily has to be caused by the warp. My problem is with the geneseed corruption that causes substantial physical mutation and can be repeated with exposure to warp energy. There seems to be a correlation there. Except wulfen appear even on initiates with no warp exposure. Wulfen are seen as bad and not a goal to aspire to so I doubt the apothecaries would implant corrupted geneseed. Plus im not even sure geneseed from wulfen is collected. The canis helix and the geneseed is what causes the change and thats almost explicitly stated to be due to the genetic engineering legacy of Russ and Fenris. Also comedy option, Fenris is an ancient Eldar world and thus actually has a world spirit. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 22:29
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Telsa Cola posted:Except wulfen appear even on initiates with no warp exposure. See, that's the problem. Unless I completely misunderstand the immaterium, the only place you are safe from warp exposure is in the presence of a psychic null.
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May 13, 2017 22:38
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Moose_Knuck posted:See, that's the problem. Unless I completely misunderstand the immaterium, the only place you are safe from warp exposure is in the presence of a psychic null. You are unlikely to be targeted by the immaterium itself unless you are either in a warp storm or are a latent psyker. Otherwise the rate of warp exposure among citizens in the Imperium would be hilariously high. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:45 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 22:40
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Telsa Cola posted:Hell, some traitor chapters have really pure geneseed despite living in the warp constantly. And Primarchs were made with Chaos help. Therefore, the greatest purity of geneseed will come from those closest to the warp.
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May 13, 2017 22:45
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Telsa Cola posted:You are unlikely to be targeted by the immaterium itself unless you are either in a warp storm or are a latent psyker. Or the greatest weapons of the Emperor...that's the gambit. The Chaos powers have nothing to lose by attempting to influence anything with a soul, especially that as monstrously powerful as a space marine. The only way they lose is if they don't try. Telsa Cola posted:Otherwise the rate of warp exposure among citizens in the Imperium would be hilariously high. Come to think of it, that's literally what they should be doing, but that would make for some poor reading, except for maybe a one off parody akin to Ciaphas Cain. Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 22:46
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Or does it? Nobody in Warhammer is a reliable narrator when it comes to the nature of the Warp, not only because everyone has their own agendas and interpretations in universe but also because GW retcons it every other week if they figure out a new way to sell a figurine. I think of the webway is sort of sealed tunnels through the warp, like warp VPNs except sometimes the encryption leaks. Moose_Knuck posted:Or the greatest weapons of the Emperor...that's the gambit. The Chaos powers have nothing to lose by attempting to influence anything with a soul, especially that as monstrously powerful as a space marine. The only way they lose is if they don't try.
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May 13, 2017 22:59
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Arquinsiel posted:The thing about GW is that as they've backed off from ripping off Michael Moorcock the whole idea of the warp and chaos being infinite possibility has sort of faded into the background and you no longer get weird poo poo like Chaos Gods of Law turning up and belief controlling the nature of the entities that manifest near you etc The whole Fenris thing seen through the lens of the fictional history basically means that the dudes on Fenris believe so hard in the spirits that the local daemons are just chill wolf bros who help out in whatever wolfy fashion they are expected to. Unfortunately GW threw that lens out, because it was too cool and also got them sued. Also canonically when chaos fails to corrupt someone the person involved becomes way way way harder to corrupt.
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May 13, 2017 23:07
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Telsa Cola posted:Also canonically when chaos fails to corrupt someone the person involved becomes way way way harder to corrupt.
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May 13, 2017 23:12
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Arquinsiel posted:Man, you need to read more warhams. That's basically impossible by the rules of the setting. You need to either be mutated in a particular way for the warp to even be able to make you aware of it or you need to have physically travelled into it. How does it violate the rules? Chaos can travel through time for pete's sake. The only reason the Primarchs weren't scattered earlier was because of a Gellar Field protecting them. Was there a warp storm during that time (before the Gellar Field was destroyed)? As far as I'm aware, only Magnus was connected to the immaterium while he was incubating, yet all of the primarchs were physically affected.
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May 13, 2017 23:20
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Moose_Knuck posted:How does it violate the rules? Chaos can travel through time for pete's sake. The only reason the Primarchs weren't scattered earlier was because of a Gellar Field protecting them. Was there a warp storm during that time (before the Gellar Field was destroyed)? As far as I'm aware, only Magnus was connected to the immaterium while he was incubating, yet all of the primarchs were physically affected. Warp can cause time travel but its not purposefully done by chaos. Warp does not equal chaos.
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May 13, 2017 23:36
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Telsa Cola posted:Warp can cause time travel but its not purposefully done by chaos. Warp does not equal chaos. That is exactly what happened with Horus and Argel Tal et al. Chaos purposefully moved them through time. Yes, they were in warp energy-heavy areas at the time, but that's irrelevant. Chaos gods are present in the warp at all times, and I would argue that they have the ability to manifest their power in the material realm at any time and place--unless there is a psychic null. Sure they may produce a warp storm as their energy manifests, or they may not...it doesn't matter. But unless someone can explain why the Ruinous Powers cannot manifest at any time and place, I don't see why it would be impossible for them to reveal themselves to the average Imperial citizen. EDIT: Just because someone performs a ritual to summon them at times, does not mean they can't will themselves into existence. Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 23:46
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And as for my geneseed corruption being warp touch theory, let me give an example: Say you take a geneseed into a warp storm and it gets struck by warp-lightning. The geneseed would be damaged (most likely causing mutations), and most importantly, it would leave a warp imprint on the gene seed that would make the bearer more susceptible to the energy of the warp in the future. Now, I don't know if that last part is provable, but it would certainly explain mutations being exacerbated by the presence of warp energy, wouldn't it?
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May 13, 2017 23:57
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Telsa Cola posted:Literally if its any chaos god (its not) it would be tzeench since there is literally an entire legion dedicated to hating the space wolves who follow him and his entire deal is mutations. You have to remember geneseed may be from the warp itself they harvest it originally from the primarchs and they sure as hell blur the line. Zasze fucked around with this message at 00:26 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 00:21
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Moose_Knuck posted:How does it violate the rules? Chaos can travel through time for pete's sake. The only reason the Primarchs weren't scattered earlier was because of a Gellar Field protecting them. Was there a warp storm during that time (before the Gellar Field was destroyed)? As far as I'm aware, only Magnus was connected to the immaterium while he was incubating, yet all of the primarchs were physically affected. Yes there was a warp storm, it was what isolated the various human colonies. No Magnus was NOT just connected to the immaterium while incubating, BEING A PSYKER is that exact connection. Seriously, just go :files: yourself a bunch of old Codex: Chaos from various editions and maybe stop spectulating along lines that requires everything written to be ignored.
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May 14, 2017 00:21
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Moose_Knuck posted:I understand that it does happen every once in awhile (and it's always awkward and bordering on violent), but I thought the official policy from Big E was to exterminate all xenos? Official policy from Big E, yes, but Eldrad supposedly negotiated a treaty with the Emperor signed with the Emperor's real name - it was one of many things that went boom when Magnus breached the Emperor's hidden project on Terra.
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May 14, 2017 00:47
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This is becoming recursive, the point is that there is currently little to no actually evidence to the space wolf geneseed is corrupted by the warp. There is however like 7 books that basically explain that the genetic history of Fenris and russ is what is causing wulfens and also the wolves on Fenris. There is as much merit it saying the space wolves follow or are corrupted by Khorne as there is in saying the emperor is actually tzeentch. Everything else is speculation which is directly contradicting canon. This is also ignoring the fact that corrupted geneseed is destroyed to prevent chaos corruption. And genetic testing is done by the mechanicous to confirm it. The chapters who get around this are almost always the ones who are extra fanatical to the emperor. Edit: Also canonically the warp can not and does not interfere with the material realm except for warpstorms or psykers. This is literally why warpstorms or unrestrained psykers is a big loving deal since they allow the warp to impact the material realm. Chaos can use agents but the four gods can not interact unless an agent or a warpstorm weakens the walls between the two. There are also certain areas where the walk is thinner. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 01:33 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 01:17
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I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Wolves had a theory about their geneseed and the Wulfen. It went along the lines that the geneseed was inherently resistant to Chaos, and that the more it was exposed to Chaos, the more likely it would alter its host into a form (Wulfen) that was even more resistant.
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May 14, 2017 01:41
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Shroud posted:I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Wolves had a theory about their geneseed and the Wulfen. It went along the lines that the geneseed was inherently resistant to Chaos, and that the more it was exposed to Chaos, the more likely it would alter its host into a form (Wulfen) that was even more resistant. A ton of this and "Warp Science" falls under GW's "Everything is cannon, not everything is true" cop out. It "works" however the author of that little bit of lore needs it to work.
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May 14, 2017 01:58
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Arquinsiel posted:That you are even asking these questions shows that you need to read more. I want to thank you for this suggestion. I bought a copy of the 6th edition Chaos Daemon codex and it clarified a bit. Chaos gods can interact with anything in the material realm by "birthing" a daemon--which is a portion of the patron god's essence poured into a material form. Although it doesn't specify how much "power" it takes to create one, they could technically produce a daemon for every household. Additionally, and this is a direct quote from the codex, "Warp space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible. The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one, for both are formed of the same Warp energy." Anytime someone pulls power from the warp, they are directly interacting with a Chaos God. Telsa Cola posted:This is becoming recursive, the point is that there is currently little to no actually evidence to the space wolf geneseed is corrupted by the warp. There is however like 7 books that basically explain that the genetic history of Fenris and russ is what is causing wulfens and also the wolves on Fenris. There is as much merit it saying the space wolves follow or are corrupted by Khorne as there is in saying the emperor is actually tzeentch. Ofcourse, my geneseed theory is speculation, but that's the whole point of this thread, right, to nerd out on Warham books and lore?
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May 14, 2017 02:02
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It should be noted that the codexs are all written from the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator based either in the faction or as an observer and as such they should not be seen as the end all be all source. Speculation is fine, but at this point you are speculating against established canon which is why you are getting push back. The warp is not always chaos, this can be seen because there was a warp before there were chaos gods, the chaos gods themselves only have realms in the warp and can not and do not patrol the whole thing, that there are various non-sentient animals that utilize warp powers to travel and which arnt chaos corrupter and etc. And you literally cannot birth a daemon for everyhousehold unless every household did a ritual to weaken the barriers and call forth one. A chaos god can not create them anywhere, this is literally the major plot point for like every novel featuring a daemonic invasion. Hell, its why many of the big bads want to bring planets into the warp/make a warp storm. Its even literally why the chaos gods want to expand the eye of terror, so they CAN influence the material realm. You really should read some of the novels to find out how actually chaos interaction with the material realm works out, because they have to go through a lot of trouble to actually do poo poo. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 02:16 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 02:07
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Cythereal posted:Official policy from Big E, yes, but Eldrad supposedly negotiated a treaty with the Emperor signed with the Emperor's real name - it was one of many things that went boom when Magnus breached the Emperor's hidden project on Terra. wheres this? thats cool i wanna read about that also jesus christ 40 new posts i thought abnett or ADB died good lawd gentlemen i like the activity, i do. lawyering about 40k lore gets me hot and bothered
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May 14, 2017 02:42
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I have a 10 hour flight to germany coming up anything new come out worth reading? Looking at possibly the return of the wolfen series or whatever
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May 14, 2017 02:43
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Cythereal posted:Official policy from Big E, yes, but Eldrad supposedly negotiated a treaty with the Emperor signed with the Emperor's real name - it was one of many things that went boom when Magnus breached the Emperor's hidden project on Terra. Seconding this. Need good reads. Side note: Is the warp ALWAYS shifting around, or does it have a pretty fixed location in relation to realspace? I mean, you'd think it would have to for webway portals to work, right? Basically, at any time, when a psyker goes into their light body, are they gonna enter into the warp at the same place, or is it random? Moose_Knuck fucked around with this message at 03:35 on May 14, 2017 |
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May 14, 2017 03:22
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Waroduce posted:wheres this? thats cool i wanna read about that It's never been a big thing in a book to my knowledge, mainly stuff from old codices before the Horus Heresy books got started. Magnus alludes to it, and IIRC Eldrad does as well in Fulgrim. Specifically old Eldar codices, I think, Eldrad going on about how the Emperor was the one human the Eldar ever treated as an equal.
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May 14, 2017 03:31
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Did Eldrad and the Craftworld Eldar during that time really have a choice? Either treat the Emperor of Mankind as an equal or be loving ear marked for annihilation during a point in time where they were probably at their weakest as a race.
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May 14, 2017 03:37
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Speaking of Space Wolves... Is Curse of the Wulfen worth reading? Is there a planned sequel to it, and/or do we know if some of the events will factor into stuff like the new edition, Roboute's return, etc.? (In other words: be expanded upon.) I assume "yes" since Roboute is also palling around with Cypher, but have we heard anytihng?
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May 14, 2017 14:09
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Telsa Cola posted:This is becoming recursive, the point is that there is currently little to no actually evidence to the space wolf geneseed is corrupted by the warp. There is however like 7 books that basically explain that the genetic history of Fenris and russ is what is causing wulfens and also the wolves on Fenris. Er... there are no wolves on Fenris.
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May 14, 2017 14:19
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