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The path is the same, it just goes underground. The cost of the cable is really that much more for underground? I can't imagine it's much more labor, it's just pulling wire through a conduit instead of pulling it overhead. I did call 811, they will be marking in the next few days.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:20
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:The path is the same, it just goes underground. Aerial cables are a straight shot. There are no trees or bushes to dig around? You're forgetting that the steel core on aerial runs is used for the neutral. Underground, you have to run another service conductor.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:31
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I'm not forgetting anything, I literally don't know anything about it.  That does make sense, though. The electrician went looking for the water main so he could tie the Ground into that. I was just very surprised that the price went from ~$2k to ~4k for the same job, just because it was underground instead of aerial. Also no, there are no trees or bushes. It's a straight shot of lawn. VVVVV Edit: That is fascinating. It's completely backwards from what my brain thinks it should be. I would think that aerial conductors need that extra strength, and so are therefore bigger and more specialized and cost more. SouthShoreSamurai fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jun 1, 2017 |
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Jun 1, 2017 01:52
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:The path is the same, it just goes underground. For triplex conductors in free air, 200A service requires 1/0 conductors. They're also aluminum with a steel center for strength, and are therefore much cheaper. Underground, that's 250kcmil. That's 2.5x the cross-sectional area, plus the extra sheath. So yeah, double the cost just for the wire, plus the fact that underground is absolutely a pain in the rear end.
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Jun 1, 2017 01:52
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:It's completely backwards from what my brain thinks it should be. I would think that aerial conductors need that extra strength, and so are therefore bigger and more specialized and cost more. Electrical wires heat up based on the current and the size of the wire, larger cross sectional area means less heat for a given amperage. The aerial lines have much better heat dissipation from being out in the open air, the underground feed is crammed in a conduit surrounded by dirt. Needs to be larger wire to handle the same amperage without getting too hot.
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Jun 1, 2017 03:55
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:For triplex conductors in free air, 200A service requires 1/0 conductors. They're also aluminum with a steel center for strength, and are therefore much cheaper. Underground, that's 250kcmil. That's 2.5x the cross-sectional area, plus the extra sheath. So yeah, double the cost just for the wire, plus the fact that underground is absolutely a pain in the rear end. I had never heard of kcmil, looking it up 250kcmil is ~4.7/0 - why does it have to be so much larger for the same service? I've seen 4/0 cable in person and it is monstrous. Edit: Fine, answer my question before I ask it.
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Jun 1, 2017 04:02
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SouthShoreSamurai, who is charging you $4k? The electrician or the utility? The meter is on your house right?babyeatingpsychopath posted:For triplex conductors in free air, 200A service requires 1/0 conductors. They're also aluminum with a steel center for strength, and are therefore much cheaper. Underground, that's 250kcmil. That's 2.5x the cross-sectional area, plus the extra sheath. So yeah, double the cost just for the wire, plus the fact that underground is absolutely a pain in the rear end. Not disregarding/disagreeing with your reply here (the intent is correct), but conductor sizing is very much up to the engineer at any utility. We do run 1/0 to any new service, but just because (for instance) someone upgrades the panel box on their service pole to a trailer house from 100a to 200a, we're not re-running their existing #2 triplex (or old 2/0 to new 4/0 underground) unless they've added obvious load or having demonstrable issues. Even on a new home, conductor/transformer sizing is (or should be) based on factors like square footage, hvac tonnage, and whether they are running gas appliances or electric. And service length of course. We may, and have run 350mcm to a 200a service based on that. Many utilities use even smaller conductor, I've seen a lot of #6 triplex on Duke Energy.
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Jun 1, 2017 04:13
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Neat! I had been curious why the utility didn't want/require my buried service run upgraded when I replaced my 100 amp panel with 200.
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Jun 1, 2017 04:42
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Mimesweeper posted:Electrical wires heat up based on the current and the size of the wire, larger cross sectional area means less heat for a given amperage. I would have never considered that. Thank you! angryrobots posted:SouthShoreSamurai, who is charging you $4k? The electrician or the utility? The meter is on your house right? The electrician. The meter is on my house, but the utility service ends at the pole (Massachusetts.) They will repair the electric meter, but that's it. I'd like to build a workshop one day, which is why the switch to 200 amp. Rather do it now than pay $2k now just to upgrade the panel, then another $4k later to upgrade to 200 amp. Also we do have central air and an electric stove.
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Jun 1, 2017 07:06
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angryrobots posted:Not disregarding/disagreeing with your reply here (the intent is correct), but conductor sizing is very much up to the engineer at any utility. Oh yeah. I'm absolutely on board with you. I just grabbed wire size/ampacity minima out of the code book and put them down. Code compliance is, as always, up to the authority having jurisdiction, and that's the utility in the case of service drops. So since they get to say what's OK, they will use the smallest(cheapest) wire possible. SouthShoreSamurai posted:The meter is on my house, but the utility service ends at the pole (Massachusetts.) They will repair the electric meter, but that's it. Wow. Mass sucks. I even checked the utility connection handbook, and yup, the utility responsibility ends at the pole if there's a pole, or the property line if not.
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Jun 1, 2017 11:33
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:The electrician. The meter is on my house, but the utility service ends at the pole (Massachusetts.) They will repair the electric meter, but that's it. So a new underground service is $300/the first 150', and $1/foot past 150'. In your case with underground existing, I'm pretty sure it would have been free if it needed upgrading, but frankly that's not a situation I've seen because 4/0 has been our standard from the start in almost all cases. I've replaced old direct-buried cable that went bad, but never had to upgrade cable that wasn't fubar. What size was your existing service conductor, and who said it must be upgraded?
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Jun 1, 2017 12:41
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Wow. Mass sucks. I even checked the utility connection handbook, and yup, the utility responsibility ends at the pole if there's a pole, or the property line if not. It seems nuts to have your local electricians be up on the pole  vs having the utility making the call up to the meter. Or at least telling the electricians the engineered size to run from the pole to the meter.
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Jun 1, 2017 17:27
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Having read about electrical inspections running the gamut from 'inspectors barely getting out of their trucks' to 'exhaustively examining every junction and outlet', I took the cautious approach and triple-checked every thing I could think of, including tidying the area in front of the electrical box so I wouldn't get the 'access cannot be obstructed...' lecture. He spent thirty seconds looking at the work, signed the report, and said "Nice weather we're having, eh?" before leaving.
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Jun 1, 2017 19:44
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Zahgaegun posted:Having read about electrical inspections running the gamut from 'inspectors barely getting out of their trucks' to 'exhaustively examining every junction and outlet', I took the cautious approach and triple-checked every thing I could think of, including tidying the area in front of the electrical box so I wouldn't get the 'access cannot be obstructed...' lecture. I had similar with my inspector; he looked at the panel and verified that I'd labeled all three of my circuits, and that was about it. One interpretation is that they'll only do the real teardown if they have reason to suspect that things might not be done well; if they see that you've taken care in the more visible parts of your work, then they'll assume you took the same care in the less visible parts. Another interpretation is that they're overworked/lazy/incompetent, of course.  Hard to know which applies to your particular inspector.
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Jun 1, 2017 20:28
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My buddy claims fat inspectors will never go into the attic. Mine didn't Anyways, I'm just making jokes because he was legitimately cheery to talk to and schedule with. Nobody's around here has been electrocuted recently so I guess he's at least passable.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:48
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My inspector was taller than I am (and I'm 6'3") and super skinny. He went everywhere. and was super cute  Add his Irish accent and I was seriously swooning.
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Jun 2, 2017 04:54
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My overweight inspector did not go in the attic. In his defense, the access was in a closet above a shelf, and truly difficult to get into (They're not allowed to move personal belongings in an occupied house). I wiggled my way up there and took a ton of photos with his camera.
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Jun 2, 2017 05:32
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Is there a downside to CL dimmers vs. standard if I'm going to use one with incandescents anyways and unlikely to change? Do they not dim fully to "zero" (like fan controls) or anything else strange?
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Jun 2, 2017 22:34
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Some of the sliders do work like that where the lowest setting on the slider is still on, but they do come with a rocker switch to turn it off, then you turn on the rocker again to whatever lighting level the slider is at.
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Jun 2, 2017 22:40
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That reminds me of something I've always wondered about dimmers. How does the little LED on them work? They only get a traveler leg, so not a complete circuit, right?
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Jun 3, 2017 04:33
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opengl128 posted:That reminds me of something I've always wondered about dimmers. How does the little LED on them work? They only get a traveler leg, so not a complete circuit, right? It bridges the hot/neutral always. It's a tiny draw.
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Jun 3, 2017 19:46
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So I've decided the most reasonable course of action is to hand dig down at the meter and the pole, find the existing conduit, snap a line between the two, and then dig a ditch with a trencher a couple of feet to the side of that line. I've already had the gas line mapped out, I have to get the water/sewer (my town is apparently not part of DigSafe, which is stupid all unto itself.) The cable/phone lines are aerial, so I don't foresee a problem there. Does this seem reasonable?
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Jun 4, 2017 01:17
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:So I've decided the most reasonable course of action is to hand dig down at the meter and the pole, find the existing conduit, snap a line between the two, and then dig a ditch with a trencher a couple of feet to the side of that line. I've already had the gas line mapped out, I have to get the water/sewer (my town is apparently not part of DigSafe, which is stupid all unto itself.) The cable/phone lines are aerial, so I don't foresee a problem there. Does this seem reasonable? by 'mapped out' did they come and actually do a thing or just send the installer's drawings? i ask because in my case they just sent the drawings and the depth was way the hell wrong.
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Jun 4, 2017 01:33
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:So I've decided the most reasonable course of action is to hand dig down at the meter and the pole, find the existing conduit, snap a line between the two, and then dig a ditch with a trencher a couple of feet to the side of that line. I've already had the gas line mapped out, I have to get the water/sewer (my town is apparently not part of DigSafe, which is stupid all unto itself.) The cable/phone lines are aerial, so I don't foresee a problem there. Does this seem reasonable? There's no guarantee your current electric service is run in a straight line, and it often isn't, especially at the ends. I'd like to tell you "yea go for it" but if you mess up and catch your service with the trencher, best case scenario you're the only person out of power until you complete the new service run. That includes installing the new panel on the house, running all the conduit and service conductor, getting it inspected, and the poco heating it up. Unless you are really familiar with those risks and accept them, I dunno if it's a good idea for you.
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Jun 4, 2017 01:44
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H110Hawk posted:It bridges the hot/neutral always. It's a tiny draw. Not in a two wire dimmer (Lutron Maestros, for example). The LED and processor circuitry is powered by drawing a very small amount of current every line cycle through the load using only the hot wire.
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Jun 4, 2017 02:08
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angryrobots posted:There's no guarantee your current electric service is run in a straight line, and it often isn't, especially at the ends. I'm installing a new panel anyway, the trench is for the new conduit, and it all has to be inspected anyway. That said, I am completely open to suggestions. Is there a professional that does this that I could hire? Or are you suggesting I dig it by hand... SoundMonkey posted:by 'mapped out' did they come and actually do a thing or just send the installer's drawings? i ask because in my case they just sent the drawings and the depth was way the hell wrong. Yeah, they came out and put a charge on the line and then mapped it out with flags. And of COURSE it runs right across where I have to trench, because why wouldn't it. 
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Jun 4, 2017 14:25
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:I'm installing a new panel anyway, the trench is for the new conduit, and it all has to be inspected anyway. So the electrician is charging you $4k to do a panel swap and lay pipe in your trench and pull in the wire? ....Have you considered getting some more quotes because that sounds high? If I were you, I'd try to get an electrician to do the whole job, trench and all. It can be a huge headache digging around existing utilities, even with a crew of guys who know what they're doing. Let the electrician with insurance take on that liability if at all possible.
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Jun 4, 2017 14:44
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I found this switch that not only had some arcing to the mounting strap at some point but was using a weird (to me) connection method apparently called middle stripping. I went ahead and replaced the switch and couldn't see any evidence it was currently arcing. Rather than replace with a pigtail I left the middle stripped wire as is because I found some references to it being acceptable. Should I have snipped the wire and replaced with a pigtail? Any idea what might have caused the arcing in the first place? This is the (old) switch in question.  This is the wire in question. 
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Jun 4, 2017 20:42
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:Yeah, they came out and put a charge on the line and then mapped it out with flags. And of COURSE it runs right across where I have to trench, because why wouldn't it. it's honestly not that big a deal, or at least wasn't for me, just do that first. find the gas line, expose it, then dig without a care in the world (until you hit something that wasn't supposed to be there.) they COULD have come out and put a charge on the line for me, but the routing of the gas line is actually not that big of a mystery ("see that gas meter? straight shot to the back alley"), but that still wouldn't have given them depth (at least i don't THINK, i'm not totally familiar with how that system works.)
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Jun 4, 2017 21:28
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angryrobots posted:So the electrician is charging you $4k to do a panel swap and lay pipe in your trench and pull in the wire? Yeah I think I will get a couple more quotes. This guy was referred to me by a good friend that is an electrician (but he does commercial, not resi and he's currently completely gutting his own house, so he has no time to help out.) The price seemed very high for the work involved to me also, which is why I posted here in the first place.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:59
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:Yeah I think I will get a couple more quotes. This guy was referred to me by a good friend that is an electrician (but he does commercial, not resi and he's currently completely gutting his own house, so he has no time to help out.) my electrician quoted me a price for him and his apprentice digging it with hand tools - it was a couple hundred bucks. a low-on-work friend was happy to do it for $50 cash if i exposed the gas line first. this trench was only 12' long and 2' deep so your project may be a bunch different, but hiring a rando on the end of a shovel is gonna be extremely cheap, if you know people who can work and you've already gotten the buried utilities worked out.
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Jun 4, 2017 22:12
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7of7 posted:I found this switch that not only had some arcing to the mounting strap at some point but was using a weird (to me) connection method apparently called middle stripping. I went ahead and replaced the switch and couldn't see any evidence it was currently arcing. Rather than replace with a pigtail I left the middle stripped wire as is because I found some references to it being acceptable. Should I have snipped the wire and replaced with a pigtail? Any idea what might have caused the arcing in the first place? Well the arcing was caused by the screw not being tight. As for the middle stripping, that's one method for running a pigtail to all the devices in a box. It's frowned upon for several reasons. One is that tightening down the screw tends to drag the wire under it, making the section on the right poke out past the back of the device, exposing a bit of hot wire where someone could touch it. Another is that with the wire coming out both sides of the screw, it's even easier for the wires to torque the screw loose by accident, just by pushing stuff back into the box. I bet that's what happened with yours.
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Jun 4, 2017 22:42
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kid sinister posted:Well the arcing was caused by the screw not being tight. As for the middle stripping, that's one method for running a pigtail to all the devices in a box. It's frowned upon for several reasons. One is that tightening down the screw tends to drag the wire under it, making the section on the right poke out past the back of the device, exposing a bit of hot wire where someone could touch it. Another is that with the wire coming out both sides of the screw, it's even easier for the wires to torque the screw loose by accident, just by pushing stuff back into the box. I bet that's what happened with yours. Ah, ok. Thanks for the information. I made sure the screw was tightened down when I reinstalled it and after screwing the switch back into the box but I may go ahead and change it to a pigtail anyway for peace of mind. My first thought was that a previous owner had wedged two different wires under a terminal screw, something they did in other places which also gave me cause for concern.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:33
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TacoHavoc posted:Not in a two wire dimmer (Lutron Maestros, for example). The LED and processor circuitry is powered by drawing a very small amount of current every line cycle through the load using only the hot wire. Yeah should have specified a standard two wire dimmer, no neutral present. Just the hot being switched. I still can't say I get it, I'll chalk it up to pixies present on the hot.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:41
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opengl128 posted:Yeah should have specified a standard two wire dimmer, no neutral present. Just the hot being switched. It just goes in series. If it's the kind that's always on even when the switch is off, it's always letting some current through, and it ends up on your load. There's no magic.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:24
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opengl128 posted:I still can't say I get it, I'll chalk it up to pixies present on the hot. Yes, and those pixies are harvested by a tiny infernal machine inside the switch which, using a wee little steam turbine, powers the LED.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:29
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Guy Axlerod posted:It just goes in series. If it's the kind that's always on even when the switch is off, it's always letting some current through, and it ends up on your load. There's no magic. as a side note i wish dimmer switches that are used frequently had a pre-warm option. if the filament is just barely warm, it comes on quicker, responds better at lower dimming levels without going bright first, and is less prone to blow the bulb when it's first turned on we do this in theatre but it also wastes an outlandish amount of power (on that kind of scale)
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Jun 5, 2017 00:44
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I'm replacing an outlet in my unfinished basement for my washing machine. The previous state was an unprotected wire run down the wall into a box at the right height for the washing machine. (There was also a wire run up and out into the kitchen for a garbage disposal that wasn't there anymore. So I had a powered hot with a wirenut underneath my sink for a couple of years before I put 2+2 together). Currently I've got a junction box where the line comes in and gets spliced into a line running down some conduit to the outlet.  Close up of junction.  I've got 3 questions. 1) Do I need to mechanically secure the romex running down the conduit in any way? Or are the splices good enough? 2) Testing the circuit gives me continuity between Neutral and Ground. This is normal, right? Since neutral and ground is supposed to be bonded at the main box. 3) Did I misread the code and gently caress anything else up? Bottom box is getting changed out tomorrow for one with punch outs that match the conduit screw connectors I have. I grabbed the wrong box last time I went to Lowe's, and now they're closed. It'll also get a 15A outlet, but it's on a 20A breaker.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:54
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quote:I've got 3 questions. 1. No. With the wash outlet installed, that wire isn't going anywhere. 2. Yes, this is normal assuming ground and neutral are bonded in the panel. 3. You should have six inches of wire in the jbox from where the wire enters your junction boxes, but I probably wouldn't change it at this point. You'll need a GFI outlet if the circuit has doesn't have a GFI breaker already. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:13
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Blackbeer posted:1. No. With the wash outlet installed, that wire isn't going anywhere. I'll double check the measurements, I think I have 6 inches, but I'm not sure. Installed a GFCI outlet since I don't have any GFCI breakers.
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Jun 6, 2017 16:03
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