|
Duzzy Funlop posted:Started Titanicus, and only a few pages in, I'm reading that this poo poo all got kicked off by Urlock Gaur, and it's set in the Sabbat Worlds. Titanicus is pretty well independent of Gaunt's Ghosts stuff. However, just in case, save Double Eagle for after GG, if you had plans for it. Unless you can find or someone provides a proper order that fits DE into the series. Lead Psychiatry fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jun 16, 2017 |
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 06:03 |
|
|
Lead Psychiatry posted:Unless you can find or someone provides a proper order that fits DE into the series. After Guns of Tanith at least. Maybe after Sabbat Martyr even. Going by the chronology in The Sabbat World Crusades lorebook it takes place before that book. Or at least in the same year as that one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 23:57
|
|
|
One of the characters in that book talks about how the saint has come back and had started kicking faces in , so it for sure takes place after that point in the series. I read it before I was supposed to and was pleasantly surprised to see a cameo appearance of one of the heroines of that book appearing in the Gaunt series, so even though I read it at the wrong time it was still pretty cool to get a prologue/backstory out of it. Made me appreciate her more.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
Which character was that again? You can put in spoilers. But as far as Titanicus, the only mention of tanith at all is a longshoreman who promptly gets killed, just so a tanith dies in every book, leading to a hilarious misadventure as the poor guy who did it in a barfight thinks all the increased police presence is looking for him rather than related to war developments, so he acts rather paranoid and gets himself killed, whilst the arbites doesn't even know or care about someone dying in a bar fight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 01:51
|
|
|
So are titans basically controlled like voltron? Princeps is the main pilot, moderatii are in control of individual firing systems, and the techpriest and servitors operate repair and maintenance functions so the cathedral bridge crew can focus on shooting and punching. I also really like the lore about titan crews being so exceptional that they take literally any person from all corners of the imperium since the willpower to stand up to such an immensely powerful machine spirit is very rare. So Johnny hive ganger could potentially become a titan pilot because of his mental fortitude because the priesthood is so desperate for pilots.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
Titans are really fuckin cool. So I always thought machine spirits, other than the few things that are actually Closeted AI, was a superstition from people who really didn't understand how machines work. Now all the books I'm reading go on about it like its a real deal, this door lock has a soul and is angry so it won't open unless you give it a little prayer and a sugar cube. Is it a new thing or did I misinterpret it? Some kind of belief makes reality deal, ignorance of engineering, or does the lawnmower actually have a soul? I'm almost done with Gods of Mars where it's super prevalent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:23
|
|
|
Ardent Communist posted:Which character was that again? I forget which said it but it was during the conversation between the rookie pilot and medic priest.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:36
|
|
|
I would also like to know what the gently caress a machine spirit is.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:45
|
|
|
Artificial intelligence through the lens of cognitive dissonance
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:52
|
|
|
funmanguy posted:I would also like to know what the gently caress a machine spirit is. It's as he suggests: While there are a handful of AIs still in operation, the vast majority of "machine spirits" are mere exercises in anthropomorphism by a scientifically ignorant society. Think of an old car that is lovely maintained by her owner: When "Betsy" is acting up that really means that there is a malfunction - only few people in the Imperium are capable of understanding the distinction. They're told to take machine spirits literally and thus they experience them as such. When you factor in all the levels of automation, pre-programming, and virtual intelligence that is present, it's no wonder that there's confusion on the matter for the average user. Kaal fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jun 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:54
|
|
|
Also, it's 40k. Odds are good that some machine spirits are fully fledged AIs, some are nothing of the sort, some are machines with the equivalent of autocorrect, some are google-like, and a million other possibilities. It's a big galaxy and very few people in-setting would understand or be able to tell the difference anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 03:59
|
|
|
I think it's almost always more than anthropomorphism when called out specifically in a book For example in carrion Throne cowl instructs the machine spirit of the ship to rescue them and so on . No one talks of the machine spirit of mundane things. They do use slaved cogitators for many things but the mechanicus clearly uses "banned" AI and everyone is fine with that because ... it works well. Like for example in Titans. I'm not as well read as all of you so I'm probably wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:06
|
|
|
There are a few the imperium uses that actually are AI. I think the common ones are Titans, some old ships, and most notably Land Raiders. The operator fights against their wills, and if they die the machine can function on its own. AI is super forbidden, since humans became to reliant on them in the far past, and were almost wiped out in a terminator style AI uprising. The cognitive dissonance is cool in that these things are okay because it's just the omnissiahs little angel buddies, trust us, not Abominable Intelligence, Machine Spirit. Occasionally an old independent thinking machine will be found still hanging out in the huge Galaxy, and they are supposed to be destroyed on sight as hereteck.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:09
|
|
|
Tech priests are also AI for all intents and purposes . Well. Some of them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:11
|
|
|
I wasn't sure where the line was drawn, like some tech priests are 99% machine with even parts of their brain replaced. Are machine spirits the continued evolution of a person replacing flesh with machine? Or are they true AI created from scratch and sort of glossed over because acknowledging them as AI would mean you couldn't use them anymore. Or they could be some chaos warp magic poo poo. I had sort of assumed that it was one of a few parts of the setting that was left intentionally vague to allow different authors to use machine spirits how the wanted without being held to some universal canon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:19
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Tech priests are also AI for all intents and purposes . Well. Some of them. And the Iron Hands are heading that way unless I've misread them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:22
|
|
|
Looking at lexicanum the Inquisition is more concerned with abominable intelligence which ai which replicates and enhances itself Ai stuck in a tank or titan seems ok idk. Who knows.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:24
|
|
|
I think a lot of AI in 40k are somewhat neutered in their function. I get the distinct impression that a Titan's machine spirit is pretty much a bunch of stored code that cannot function without a human brain as a processing core. If that's true then it's a pretty clever way of circumventing the danger of an autonomous AI. I've also noticed that a lot of independent machines that are used by chaos (like the drone killer in the Martian civil war book and the tank in Gaunt's Ghosts) are described as cunning animal intelligences and I choose to interpret that as having something like a wolf brain or other predator as its core processor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:40
|
|
|
The banned AI are the ones that can replicate themselves and such without human interaction and definitely if they're sentient. The Machine Spirit AI in Titans, Landraiders, etc. are more bestial in nature, aggressive apex style hunters with the human at the helm directing their focus, and without a human cannot do anything. Even the oldest Tech Priest who has replaced 99.9% of his body with machinery still has a piece of organic matter or maybe a bunch of brain jars, thus still having a small shred of humanity in them. Everything that is meant to work in some mode of automation like servitors, servo-skulls, and cherubs are also made from people or animals and fed a programing punch card that determines how they function. They have nothing that is 100% mechanical and operated without a human touch.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 04:52
|
|
|
Pretty much, humanity hit the singularity with disastrous results and has since found a sweet spot where you have ai but no Skynet.  Correct me if this is wrong, heard this on a wh40k 40 facts video, one Iron Hands marine has reached the point of having replaced all of his fleshy bits including his grey matter copying his conciousness into a Ghost in the shell style cyber brain. I wondered for a moment if they kept his human brain around but they definitely threw that weak fleshy poo poo in the garbage.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 12:49
|
|
|
Bear in mind that there is a massive scale between a dumb mechanical/Electronic system and a full fledged AI. We would make this distinction but in 40K it gets lumped under one giant term called machine spirit. Plus the default answer for something not working very well is the machine spirit is pissed because most people believe this and don't have the technical knowledge to know otherwise. Door lock doesn't work often, even with the right keys? The real answer is that the lock/keys are so worn that they have trouble mating correctly. 40K Answer? The machine spirit of the lock is cantankerous and needs to be appeased. Computer keeps shutting down? Real answer is that the CPU keeps on overheating and throttles/shuts down due stop it from frying. 40K Answer? The machine spirit is old and grumpy and needs careful management to stop it from giving up for a few hours. Keeps on shoot friendlies with a vehicle heavy weapon because it marks friendlies as threats? Real answer is that the IFF is buggy as hell or hasn't been updated correctly/files are corrupted. 40K Answer? The machine spirit is very aggressive and bloodthirsty. The more complex a system, the more likely it will look like some kind of AI but can just be a hideously complected system where one buggy bit can have far reaching consequences. Those who actually know how the stuff works can fix it by "appeasing the machine spirit" even if that is just replacing a bad part of sorting out the buggy code. The problem is the code base for a titan is probably so complex that only a handful of Magos will understand it and you can bet they get a massive amount of power because they do so will horde that understanding. Much like the attitude of lots of people in offices today who can bearly operate a computer and view what the IT literate people do as witchcraft even though most of the time its a simple google away. edit: For a titan imagine what it would be like if the reactor management was written in cobol running on a mainframe, the piloting systems was written in python running on sparc, the fire control systems written in C on top of Windows server and the command and control interface was in java running on mac os9. It would have idioscrancies coming out of every poor but it could be explained as a machine spirit. Foxtrot_13 fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jun 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 13:06
|
|
|
What if Marty Robbins was slinging gunfighter ballads in the 41st Millenium? You get the inquisitor with the Or how about the Finally, Text-To-Speech episode 25 is out. Seems like Vulkan had a bit of a mental collision with the Beast of Ullanor that had some unexpected side effects when he resurrected. Also, Corax was trapped inside Vulkan's car. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 18:07
|
|
|
Foxtrot_13 posted:edit: For a titan imagine what it would be like if the reactor management was written in cobol running on a mainframe, the piloting systems was written in python running on sparc, the fire control systems written in C on top of Windows server and the command and control interface was in java running on mac os9. It would have idioscrancies coming out of every poor but it could be explained as a machine spirit. That's actually my fetish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
On the subject of good Vietnam memoirs, read Fire Base Matterhorn. It is so colosally infuriating that you think you were reading a Departmento Munitorum brief, and Marlantes is an amazing writer, both when it comes to the action and the personalities involved.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Foxtrot_13 posted:Bear in mind that there is a massive scale between a dumb mechanical/Electronic system and a full fledged AI. One of my favorite examples of this is andrej in helsreach explaining that armagheddon las rifles are basically made with a lovely slide and how much more awesome cadian las rifles are because you dont need to break them in" "cadians make very eager weapons"
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 05:46
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:What if Marty Robbins was slinging gunfighter ballads in the 41st Millenium? You get the inquisitor with the The first one was definitely the better one of the two I think. But still pretty great work regardless. Arcsquad12 posted:Finally, Text-To-Speech episode 25 is out. Seems like Vulkan had a bit of a mental collision with the Beast of Ullanor that had some unexpected side effects when he resurrected. Also, Corax was trapped inside Vulkan's car. I admit I completely lost it as the Skull ghost joke when I watched it last Friday. Also did not expect to see Ephrael Stern make an appearance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 13:24
|
|
|
Rogal Dorn has the best sense of humor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 16:49
|
|
|
If you want to get into "power of belief", I could actually buy some real no-poo poo machine spirits as a result of the warp spitting out benevolent-to-humanity minor daemons as a result of the Mechanicus' (or at least the lower rungs that haven't clued into the fact that heretek and alien tech is actually cool and good if you slap a thick coat of "HUMANITY APPROVED" paint on them) fervent belief in them and the Omnissiah. The vast majority is probably simple programs with some AIs scattered in, but in 40k I can buy a minor daemon sitting in some computer core and just being so happy to do its work with no ulterior motives.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 03:50
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I think it's almost always more than anthropomorphism when called out specifically in a book 15 Hours starts with the kid doing repairs to mundane farm equipment, and I vaguely recall him talking about their machine spirits.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 07:47
|
|
|
Bear in mind that the neural interface link of a Titan works both ways. So it's possible for the "Machine Spirit" of a Titan to take on the traits of/be haunted by old departed Princeps
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 10:56
|
|
|
Quote is not edit
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 10:56
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Bear in mind that the neural interface link of a Titan works both ways. So it's possible for the "Machine Spirit" of a Titan to take on the traits of/be haunted by old departed Princeps This is probably like predictive text
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 11:10
|
|
|
It's also possible that at least one machine spirit out there genuinely is an AI who likes being worshiped and gets pissy if not worshiped in exactly the right way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 14:03
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:I've also noticed that a lot of independent machines that are used by chaos (like the drone killer in the Martian civil war book and the tank in Gaunt's Ghosts) are described as cunning animal intelligences and I choose to interpret that as having something like a wolf brain or other predator as its core processor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 14:20
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Bear in mind that the neural interface link of a Titan works both ways. So it's possible for the "Machine Spirit" of a Titan to take on the traits of/be haunted by old departed Princeps This is a theme of a few of the better books. The Night Lords books have a navigator who is having to battle with a ship that resents her taking over (including a horrific scene where she has to lower herself into navigator pool filled with excrement from the previous insane navigator )and the Ahriman series has a mechanicum heretic who interfaces with a warship being lost to the ship itself . A lot of the books that have smaller war engines talk about having to reign in aggressive spirits like handling dangerous dogs. I guess chaos titans just go that extra step and literally manifest daemon spirits
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 14:36
|
|
|
berzerkmonkey posted:This is accurate. Warhounds are supposed to use dog AI, and Warlords use Grizzly bear AI as part of their base programming in order to help motivate the titan in its proper battlefield role. I believe Reavers use wolf AI, but I'm not 100% sure. Also, trying to remember where the hell I read all of this - maybe the Titanicus comic? I've got the TPB for it and I can't say I remember that being mentioned but then it's been a while I properly read through it so I might need to go back and doublecheck at some point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 14:46
|
|
|
Dog_Meat posted:I guess chaos titans just go that extra step and literally manifest daemon spirits There's been at least one uncrewed Titan that was a Chaos Lord in its own right and made its own independent deals with Chaos.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 14:51
|
|
|
Dog_Meat posted:This is a theme of a few of the better books. The Night Lords books have a navigator who is having to battle with a ship that resents her taking over (including a horrific scene where she has to lower herself into navigator pool filled with excrement from the previous insane navigator )and the Ahriman series has a mechanicum heretic who interfaces with a warship being lost to the ship itself . Alot of stuff like this makes me wish there was more to chaos than murder/kill erry day and that atleast one of the legions fell because the imperium is an authoritarian power trip with a uncomfortable eugenics bent with psychic powers as the Übermensch. In the black legion book one of the more interesting things was that planet that the dark mechanicum ran that wasn't actually that much of a demon world / poo poo hole of madness and seemed to be working on AI of some sort for its automaton miners.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:11
|
|
|
Cooked Auto posted:I've got the TPB for it and I can't say I remember that being mentioned but then it's been a while I properly read through it so I might need to go back and doublecheck at some point. Yeah, it might have been something else. It's bee na long time since I read it, and it's likely been retconned/forgotten about by now. Though, there was that scene in Priests of Mars with the warhounds yipping around the "pack leader" Reaver.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 06:03 |
|
|
Cythereal posted:There's been at least one uncrewed Titan that was a Chaos Lord in its own right and made its own independent deals with Chaos. Wasn't their a Grey Knight novel like that where a demon had infested a Titan for so long that it had forgotten it was a demon in the first place. Been so long since I read those could have it confused.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 17:01
|
|
