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Fallen Hamprince posted:it's more illegalism because you have to steal electricity to make a profit How does wasting electricity that you payed for constitute stealing?
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Jul 29, 2017 22:58
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Dreddout posted:How does wasting electricity that you payed for constitute stealing? it isn't, the secret of bitcoin is wasting someone else's power
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Jul 29, 2017 23:01
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8hC298pXz0
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Jul 30, 2017 00:03
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namesake, you're throwing up irrelevant questions to obsfucate the issue here: money is just a thing that exists because it's useful. Under a socialist system it exists only so far as it fits some need of the system. You don't actually need it to exist as an exchange mechanism between firms, if that's not what you want. You don't need firms to have 'balanced books', if you can guarantee that the overall system is balanced. Under a planned system, you simply allocate capital goods and input goods to the firms, take the products and sell them at 'retail' - what you then have is an optimization problem, with consumer spending being your objective function. Maximize that, minimize inputs, add a random term to create new commodity discovery. Bringing up concerns of alienation or whatever is throwing up dust, it's irrelevant, and at any rate, (as I've argued elsewhere) a system without alienation is doomed to failure.
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Jul 30, 2017 00:17
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First doomsday economics, now here. Why is bitcoin invading every drat thread? Get out of here with your e-pog chat, ya dorks.
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Jul 30, 2017 00:22
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zen death robot posted:I thought I was a nerd for being a tech guy but I've never heard of this dipshit and you all have. Ubuntu is going broke, and the community as a whole is incapable of producing the necessary substitutes of production, business and creative software, to an acceptable standard - because none of those products are 'sexy' to make, in your free time. They take a lot of labor, and it is thankless. Same with fixing X or any of that other poo poo. You wouldn't do that poo poo, unless you're being paid. Surprise.
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Jul 30, 2017 00:23
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QC was such in issue in the soviet union, precisely because of it's undemocratic nature. The entire system was built on protecting the interests of the people already in a position of authority, who (inevitably) grow complacent over time, having removed any checks to their own power. The answer is to introduce a ~device~ to measure social utility, on a system-wide scale, upon which all firms and workers are judged. Ideally, you'd poll everyone, but that is practically impossible. So this device needs to not only measure social utility, but also be practical to deploy, at scale. Luckily, we already have such a device in the criminal justice system - a jury of one's peers. rudatron fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 00:32
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Fallen Hamprince posted:richard stallman is a programmer who after being refused access to the code for a printer driver while at MIT became an advocate for open source software. open source is an objectively good thing but stallman is puritanical about it, like literally won't touch software that isn't completely open source in his weird, extremely strict definition of it. he has had a decades long running feud with the inventor of linux over the name of the operating system, which he insists on calling GNU/linux because it uses a chunk of its (totally free and open source) code. he meanwhile has been trying for decades since even before linux to come up with his own OS, GNU Hurd, which nobody else cares about because Linux already does the job fine. he looks like this: lol I'm not reading any of this
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Jul 30, 2017 01:33
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*in my neoliberal voice* it's actually really bad to not compromise your own beliefs. What a fag
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Jul 30, 2017 01:49
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Kromlech posted:First doomsday economics, now here. Why is bitcoin invading every drat thread? Get out of here with your e-pog chat, ya dorks. Karl Marx invented Bitcoin in 1492
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Jul 30, 2017 02:18
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Dreddout posted:Karl Marx invented Bitcoin in 1492
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Jul 30, 2017 02:24
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it's not that I don't know who rms is, it's that I don't care about him
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Jul 30, 2017 02:45
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Kromlech posted:Is this some inside joke or pure word salad?
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Jul 30, 2017 03:15
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Kromlech posted:Is this some inside joke or pure word salad? Yes
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Jul 30, 2017 03:34
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rudatron posted:Luckily, we already have such a device in the criminal justice system - a jury of one's peers. yay, we can rule that minorities and the retarded are not socially productive enough now
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Jul 30, 2017 07:33
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Fallen Hamprince posted:yospos bithc go post there not here
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Jul 30, 2017 08:04
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Jeb! Repetition posted:There needs to be some kind of incentivization for quality of goods and services and competitive markets is the only plausible one I've heard of. there is also pride in one's work competition through prototyping gaining recognition for quality doing something you are interested in well you don't need competitive markets to create a reason for quality work
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Jul 30, 2017 10:02
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rms supports the green party so u kno he's a quality person
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Jul 30, 2017 10:04
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Don't get too caught up in arguments about incentives, or arguments about the psychological transformation of people into things that are immune to drudgery and such: the vast majority of people don't actually labor purely for their own benefit, they do so on the part of someone else, in exchange for a wage. If you believe that that system 'works', and it clearly does, then a socialist system where everyone is a wage-laborer also 'works'. Any society in which self-actualization, or the realization of one's goals through productive efforts, is sufficient motivation for labor, is one in which gay luxury space communism has already been achieved. Grand Prize Winner posted:yay, we can rule that minorities and the retarded are not socially productive enough now But the irony of what you're saying, is that it happens already - to a worse degree than you'd expect by chance. Do you think business owners are, statistically speaking, progressive angels? Or do I have to bring out how many of them vote R to dissuade you of that? rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 10:20
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Here's a really good article on coordinateing prouction and distribution in a post capitalist society. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black
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Jul 30, 2017 12:21
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- hi
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https://twitter.com/Daddys_Commies/status/891192118286311424  "i better hide my face so the CIA can't kill me for making dank memes"
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Jul 30, 2017 12:42
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getfiscals unironic alt
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Jul 30, 2017 12:45
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Please don't doxx me
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Jul 30, 2017 12:47
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Instead of blowing up mount Rushmore it should be recarved into history's greatest comrades
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Jul 30, 2017 12:50
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an unfortunate accident during blasting has left comrade trotsky's likeness with an eerily true to life fissure
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Jul 30, 2017 13:08
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Larry Parrish posted:Instead of blowing up mount Rushmore it should be recarved into history's greatest comrades Mt. Juggalo will always stand as a reminder of the revolution
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Jul 30, 2017 14:31
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read the McCaine critique of market socialist nonsense and then read Cockshott and Cottrell's book on central planning. the calculation problem envisioned by Austrian economists has been decisively solved and many of the largest capitalist firms today perform central planning indistinguishable from that required of a socialist government
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Jul 30, 2017 16:51
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rudatron posted:There is no social system that can correct majority prejudice, without introducing the possibility of it being abused. The alternative to the tyranny of a majority, is a tyranny of a minority. The only 'stable' political answer there, is a transformation of the general public itself. im just saying maybe the US criminal justice system isn't exactly something to emulate if you're trying to decide social utility
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Jul 30, 2017 16:54
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zen death robot posted:it's pretty difficult to blow up a whole mountain Nuclear Explosions for the National Monument
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Jul 30, 2017 17:02
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:read the McCaine critique of market socialist nonsense and then read Cockshott and Cottrell's book on central planning. the calculation problem envisioned by Austrian economists has been decisively solved and many of the largest capitalist firms today perform central planning indistinguishable from that required of a socialist government this is truth in fact, one of the best routes to a critique of markets and for the Labor Theory of Value in pricing comes from Marx's respectable cousins in the Institutional Economics school. They came up with the term Collective Capitalism that describes actually existing capitalism. They basically understood that the main actor in the market is not the individual but the firm. The firm first determines prices (this is called administered pricing) or colloquially markup pricing i.e. (production cost + profit) and releases the good at that price on the market. The conclusion is not that prices equalize to reach an equilibrium of supply and demand but that demand for a fixed priced good released on the market will determine supply. If something sells, they will create more of it at the price they think is profitable, if it is not selling they will cut production volume and continue to sell at the same price or higher. quote:Since Means and Berle's pioneering work in the 1930s, numerous empirical surveys have been carried out to understand the role of administered prices in national economies. Surveys conducted in the 1980s found that 70-85% of American industrial prices were markup or cost-added prices. etc. All actors in the market want to open up markets so they can close them and circumvent the rules of the neoclassical/neoliberal economists dogmatically push on everyone. They all want to increase monopolistic market power so they can dictate pricing, they want to bamboozle rational economic actors with advertising propaganda and instead of fulfilling human needs they create artificial needs (fidget spinners etc).
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Jul 30, 2017 17:31
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at my old workplace there were never discussions of how to lower prices, only of how to increase prices and increase margins
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Jul 30, 2017 17:59
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Top City Homo posted:this is truth Hey bud, if you've read Virgil Texas' tweets, fidget spinners aren't an artificial need at all.
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Jul 30, 2017 18:06
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Darkman Fanpage posted:go post there not here we already have to deal with tori. cant we put the neolib concentration camp in gip or bfc or something
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Jul 30, 2017 18:27
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lancemantis posted:at my old workplace there were never discussions of how to lower prices, only of how to increase prices and increase margins that's why business and econ are taught separately or neolib economists might start to give a poo poo about what business owners actually do instead of arguing over isolated island men and coconut charts Some historical school economists claim that when it comes to increasing prices the conversation at least partially shifts from more efficient exploitation of workers (that's on the increasing margin side alongside mass production) and to increasing market power/share to dictate pricing. cost of production is almost never discussed in the place i work at. its always about who to buy out to increase market share. Jeb! Repetition posted:Hey bud, if you've read Virgil Texas' tweets, fidget spinners aren't an artificial need at all. play is an essential thing for people im just saying that there is an inversion in incentives. resources do not go toward moslow's pyramid of needs but toward luxury production there is a need for homeless people to be housed, for the poor to have access to health food, education etc. btw here is the powerpoint for the jacobin article http://ouleft.org/wp-content/themes/wpremix3/images/AfterCapitalism.pdf
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Jul 30, 2017 18:45
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Not only that, but there are vacant homes available and bananas and bread getting thrown away in industrial quantities instead of being brought to market. Captialism wastes actively, not just passively.
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Jul 30, 2017 18:55
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Breakfast All Day posted:we already have to deal with tori. cant we put the neolib concentration camp in gip or bfc or something There's like two guys in GIP who really buy in to the rural=Trump voter thing and it makes me want to scream lmfao
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Jul 30, 2017 19:01
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*looks up a county where like 35% of majority age citizens voted, and only 40% of those were for Trump anyway* These motherfuckers lost us the election
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Jul 30, 2017 19:02
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Kromlech posted:Not only that, but there are vacant homes available and bananas and bread getting thrown away in industrial quantities instead of being brought to market. Captialism wastes actively, not just passively. Capitalism is an insanely inefficient system.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:28
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lancemantis posted:at my old workplace there were never discussions of how to lower prices, only of how to increase prices and increase margins IMO the best argument in favor of central planning is that, because all aspects of production are effectively vertically integrated into one gigantic "firm" which represents the productive forces of all of society, all goods can be provided effectively at-cost. One of the Soviet Union's biggest problems was to be able to plan for consumer demand and distribute goods in a timely manner, but nowadays demand signaling can be created instantaneously on the internet. Imagine being able to buy whatever you want at the lowest possible price, and the biggest problem is that you might have to wait a week for shipping, or a month for a new production line to create goods that were out of demand. An issue that, as of now, you may have to wait a month just to save money to afford price markups.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:29
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Soviet Economy: I have to wait in line to buy bread Soviet Economy (black market): I can buy some bread now at a cost above the statewide mandated prices Capitalist Economy (wealthy person): I can buy bread whenever I want, of all kinds, and there's so much we'll just throw away half Capitalist Economy (poor person): Im starving to death
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Jul 30, 2017 19:58
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