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kid sinister posted:I swear I remember reading that ceiling outlets are exempt. Can anyone else verify this? oh sweet, gonna install one above the shower in-line with the bathroom fan, save time and shave while i shampoo
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Aug 7, 2017 01:24
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My inspector out here, last I talked to him, said dedicated outlets don't need gfci protection. Not to mention that the outlets are 10' off the ground, but even a floor-level outlet (like 18" up) doesn't need gfci if it's just for your drill press or whatever. At least here, anyhow. And now that I've mentioned the local inspector, durr, I'll just call him and ask. Brain fart I guess. 
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Aug 7, 2017 01:46
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kid sinister posted:There's calculations regarding conduit fill. And it sounds like your new cables would just be passing though, so technically it wouldn't be a junction. That's actually a point regarding box fill. Then again, that box is huge.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:49
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Bad Munki posted:My inspector out here, last I talked to him, said dedicated outlets don't need gfci protection. ...they got rid of that part of the code book over a decade ago. And a "dedicated circuit" had only one outlet.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:58
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Could be but that's what he told me last fall. Like I said, may be local. I have no idea what year he's referencing here. For that matter, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a gfci breaker (or outlet) over 20A, and certainly nothing for 240V, so even if it is required, I'm sure it's not a blanket requirement. It'd also be odd to mandate a gfci plug 10' up in the air, but I suppose it could just be at the breaker. Either way, I'll just call the guy who's responsible for inspecting the specific installation.
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 7, 2017 |
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Aug 7, 2017 02:11
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Bad Munki posted:For that matter, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a gfci breaker (or outlet) over 20A, and certainly nothing for 240V 240V GFCIs do exist.
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Aug 7, 2017 03:58
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Yeah but I'm pretty sure they're $$$, not a normally-stocked item, and nobody expects Ol' Jimbob to have one in his barn for his 50 year old Lincoln tombstone. Not trying to be argumentative, just practical.
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Aug 7, 2017 04:11
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I'm doing some rewiring in our bathroom and I want to add a light & some GFCI protected outlets. The bathroom currently is wired with 14 awg NM on a 15 amp breaker. I already have 12awg NM on hand, and would like to use it to extend the circuit. Am I allowed by code to mix 12 and 14 wire as long as the breaker is 15 amps? It seems perfectly safe to me, but the work will be inspected, so I want to make sure it's to code. I live in Ohio if that matters.
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Aug 7, 2017 04:28
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i really wanted the outlet 14" from my kitchen sink (and right in behind the only sensible place to dry dishes) to be GFCI, but apparently it's wired double pole and double pole GFCI breakers for some reason get markedly more expensive the lower the amperage. the dude said a 60 amp one would be cheaper than a 15 amp one and yeah he was right.
SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Aug 7, 2017 |
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Aug 7, 2017 05:03
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Sir_Lagsalot posted:I'm doing some rewiring in our bathroom and I want to add a light & some GFCI protected outlets. The bathroom currently is wired with 14 awg NM on a 15 amp breaker. I already have 12awg NM on hand, and would like to use it to extend the circuit. Am I allowed by code to mix 12 and 14 wire as long as the breaker is 15 amps? It seems perfectly safe to me, but the work will be inspected, so I want to make sure it's to code. I live in Ohio if that matters. That's fine. The breaker must be sized to the lowest ampacity on the circuit. You could mix 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, and 4-gauge wire on the same run as long as it's fused for 15A.
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Aug 7, 2017 10:56
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SoundMonkey posted:i really wanted the outlet 14" from my kitchen sink (and right in behind the only sensible place to dry dishes) to be GFCI, but apparently it's wired double pole and double pole GFCI breakers for some reason get markedly more expensive the lower the amperage. the dude said a 60 amp one would be cheaper than a 15 amp one and yeah he was right. Do you need two circuits on the one outlet? You could always disconnect one of the hots, put in a single pole breaker for the other, and put in a GFI. It's not a 240V receptacle, right? Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Aug 7, 2017 |
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Aug 7, 2017 15:49
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Sir_Lagsalot posted:I'm doing some rewiring in our bathroom and I want to add a light & some GFCI protected outlets. The bathroom currently is wired with 14 awg NM on a 15 amp breaker. I already have 12awg NM on hand, and would like to use it to extend the circuit. Am I allowed by code to mix 12 and 14 wire as long as the breaker is 15 amps? It seems perfectly safe to me, but the work will be inspected, so I want to make sure it's to code. I live in Ohio if that matters. Modern code for outlets in bathrooms is weird. Now they must be GFCI protected with a 20A circuit. Either several bathrooms are allowed to share a 20A circuit for only their outlets while having their lights, fans and whatever else on neighboring circuits, or one bathroom can use one 20A circuit for everything: outlet, light, fan, heater, etc. That first situation was nice back when GFCIs were expensive. Put one at the first bathroom and protect the rest. The problem with that is that it might be a long walk to reset the GFCI. GFCIs are cheaper now than they used to be, so you can just put one in every bathroom now. The second situation is fine for houses with few bathrooms, but it gets more expensive with more bathrooms because you have to run 12 gauge to every device in every bathroom. And you can always use thicker cable in lower amperage circuits. In fact, that's actually how you counter voltage drop for very long runs.
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Aug 7, 2017 17:37
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kid sinister posted:Garages need GFCI protection, but I swear I remember reading that ceiling outlets are exempt. Can anyone else verify this?
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Aug 7, 2017 22:49
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Blackbeer posted:Do you need two circuits on the one outlet? You could always disconnect one of the hots, put in a single pole breaker for the other, and put in a GFI. It's not a 240V receptacle, right? i absolutely don't but i'll save that for the upcoming kitchen reno because the electrician, while he did okay work, was a lazy sack of poo poo and no, it's not a 240v outlet. maybe they wanted to run a kettle and microwave at the same time, i dunno.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:35
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HycoCam posted:Before the 2008 code change inaccessible outlets and direct wired were exempt. Every garage outlet requires GFCI to met code. It would also have to be a GFCI breaker (assuming it's dedicated) since a ceiling outlet isn't accessible, right?
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Aug 8, 2017 03:37
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I replaced most of my switches with Lutron sensor dimmers over the weekend but now the GFI outlet in my bathroom isn't working. Edit: Removed incorrect diagram. Apparently I'm too tired to describe my own problem properly. Basically, when I replaced two adjacent light switches with one dimmer my GFI outlet stopped working and I can't seem to find a combination of things that makes the dimmer and the outlet work. Also I think the outlet stops working if one of the fixtures has no bulbs in it. I'll try again tomorrow. Novo fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 05:54
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Sounds like your GFCI outlet is protecting your lights in your bathroom. Do you have a noncontact voltage detector to help troubleshoot this?
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Aug 8, 2017 11:19
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I need an occupancy sensor switch that turns a circuit OFF when someone is in the room. Not sure what to google for that, all my results are just standard occupancy sensors that turn on when they see movement. The application here is that I have a 1/4hp compressor running continuously to pump air to my pond, but it's sorta loud so I'd like it to shut off when I'm working in the barn and then have it come back on automatically when I leave, because I have a tendency to forgot to turn it back on manually. 15A is fine.
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Aug 8, 2017 15:10
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Bad Munki posted:I need an occupancy sensor switch that turns a circuit OFF when someone is in the room. Not sure what to google for that, all my results are just standard occupancy sensors that turn on when they see movement. I've seen 24 volt sensors that have both normally open and normally closed terminals for HVAC applications. You might need to dig through some Lutron/Leviton/whoever product sheets but I bet 120 volt ones exist.
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Aug 8, 2017 15:18
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Bad Munki posted:I need an occupancy sensor switch that turns a circuit OFF when someone is in the room. Not sure what to google for that, all my results are just standard occupancy sensors that turn on when they see movement. I *think* the simplest and cheapest way to accomplish what you want, is to combine an occupancy sensor with a 120v coil switching relay. This relay has both normally open and normally closed contacts. Someone else may know of something easier.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:22
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Hubis posted:It would also have to be a GFCI breaker (assuming it's dedicated) since a ceiling outlet isn't accessible, right?
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Aug 8, 2017 18:12
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Bad Munki posted:I need an occupancy sensor switch that turns a circuit OFF when someone is in the room. Not sure what to google for that, all my results are just standard occupancy sensors that turn on when they see movement. I think the Lutron Maestro Occupancy series might be close to what you are looking for. The switch will stay off, if turned off and will then turn back on when the occupancy sensor stops detecting motion. I think you still need to touch the switch to get it turn off though...
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Aug 8, 2017 18:20
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Bad Munki posted:I need an occupancy sensor switch that turns a circuit OFF when someone is in the room. Not sure what to google for that, all my results are just standard occupancy sensors that turn on when they see movement. I got it. You want an occupancy sensor and a NC SPST relay rated for the amperage of your pump and 120V AC for both its coil and NC terminals. Connect the pump to the NC terminal, the sensor output to the coil, and neutral to the other terminals. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 18:27
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Yeah I could roll my own, I know how to do that easily enough, I was just looking for something pre-baked and, ideally, with that little UL stamp on the final product.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:57
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Bad Munki posted:Yeah I could roll my own, I know how to do that easily enough, I was just looking for something pre-baked and, ideally, with that little UL stamp on the final product. In that case, you might be able to pull it off with a 3 way occupancy switch. A 3 way switch is a SPDT switch. You would have to do some testing to figure out which output the switch turns on when the sensor is activated, then just use the other wire to power the pump. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 19:16
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Lol, I never even considered that 3 way occupancy sensors existed. If it's just a simple switch with timed occupancy sensor, that should work perfectly.
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Aug 8, 2017 20:23
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The Gardenator posted:Sounds like your GFCI outlet is protecting your lights in your bathroom. Do you have a noncontact voltage detector to help troubleshoot this? I do. Actually it seems to be working now but I'd still like some advice. In the process of re-checking everything it started to work, but when I went to tighten up all the connections it stopped working. Very confused, I started bending the wires around while testing the outlet and discovered that its function depends not on how the switch and lights are wired but on how I stuff the wires back into the box. The obvious interpretation to me is that there is a wire in the box that feeds the GFCI outlet and it's about to fail from stress. Is this a safety concern? I don't pull much current through that outlet, it's mainly used to charge my razor. If I'm right and it is a problem finding and fixing it would be a real headache but I don't want to be worrying that my bathroom will catch on fire either. I don't think my lights were ever protected by the GFI, the lights in both bathrooms stay on when I test the outlets. The outlets and light switches are in separate boxes, if that matters. Novo fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 03:52
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There are a few things I would do. 0. Take some pictures of your outlet and lights 1: Verify which wire is carrying the power from the panel. To do that, I would turn off the breaker for the wiring in question, carefully undo all of the wires from their connections and separate them from each other (if possible and comfortable). Or at least from the receptacles and lights. Then cap or tape over the ends and turn the breaker back on. Use your voltage detector at each step before handling the wires to ensure the are off. Mark or tag the wire that carries the power into the room. 2. Use the GFCI to troubleshoot the problem downstream: First, wire up the GFCI itself and not the LOAD side of the GFCI. You need to know which wires are supplying power and hook that set to the LINE side of the GFCI. This will tell you if the issue is upstream to the breaker panel or downstream to the protected items.  If the GFCI trips with no wires connected to the load side, the problem is probably the GFCI. If the GFCI gets no power with no wires connected to the load side, the problem is upstream towards the breaker panel. If the GFCI has power and can test and reset with no wires connected to the load side, the problem is downstream. Connect the next switch, fixture, or receptacle after you sucessfully can test and reset the GFCI. Then continue connecting the succeeding switch, fixture, or receptacle. Pause between every connection, turn on the breaker, test and reset the GFCI. Did it work? If so turn off the breaker and continue to the next switch, fixture, or receptacle. Don't forget to verify the power is off with your noncontact detector before working on each set of wiring.
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Aug 10, 2017 05:00
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 The outlet is not shown because I never changed it in the first place; I had hoped to do this without messing with it and FWIW upgrading the other bathroom worked fine. It just had one light switch and a fan, whereas here I am combining two light switches. I did identify three wires that were feeding the switch box with power. The new switches are both grounded, whereas the old ones were not. The new fan switch always worked fine. Using either or both of the hots (upper red and black) on the dimmer works fine too. Where I thought I was having trouble was connecting both lights (lower red and black) at the same time, but this seems to have been a red herring. The outlet and the lights are working now, so long as I am careful about how I fold the wires back into the box. I discovered this because I was being very methodical, turning the breaker on and off and testing things (including tripping and resetting the GFI several times) after each change but there seemed to be no pattern...I'd be ready to close it back up and it would stop working. Eventually I got so frustrated I left the tester in the outlet and started pulling the wire nuts in different directions, and lo and behold the tester started beeping depending on minor variations in tension as I folded the wires back into the box. It's hard to describe, but basically I found the sweet spot. What I'm not clear on is whether I can leave it like this (I left the red wire capped and sealed it back up) or if I should be worried. You ever have a pair of headphones start to fail but they work as long as you bend a certain part of the cable in the right way? This felt like that. If there's a risk here I'd like to know how to mitigate it; can I just avoid using the outlet or should I turn the circuit off at the breaker until an electrician looks at it? Novo fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 06:00
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An intermittent connection is a high resistance connection. You know what the right answer is here, you just don't want to admit it because it means more work 
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Aug 10, 2017 07:31
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Fair enough. Do I need to turn the circuit off if there is no load on the outlet? Like, I get that this is bad, but is it an emergency? If I need to turn everything off and call someone out tomorrow I will. Otherwise my plan is to to methodically find and replace the bad wire sometime this weekend. It seems like a stressed wire somewhere in the box, I'm pretty sure all my new connections are solid but maybe I will try some of those lever nuts.
Novo fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 07:36
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A few of the people on here with more knowledge recommend screw down terminal connectors instead of wire nuts. Might help with locking down the wires.
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Aug 10, 2017 07:37
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Novo posted:Fair enough. Do I need to turn the circuit off if there is no load on the outlet? Like, I get that this is bad, but is it an emergency? If I need to turn everything off and call someone out tomorrow I will. Otherwise my plan is to to methodically find and replace the bad wire sometime this weekend. It seems like a stressed wire somewhere in the box, I'm pretty sure all my new connections are solid but maybe I will try some of those lever nuts. also you'll honestly feel better when that box looks nice and clean and you can take a vacation without wondering if your house is burning down at any given second
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Aug 10, 2017 08:19
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Totally. I'm actually asking though, is this the kind of thing that can heat up by itself or can I just not use the outlet, which does not feed the lights as far as I can tell, until it's fixed as we all agree should be done. Because I don't know how serious this is, like, tonight. There's only so much one can tell from my story and photo though. I guess I can turn the breaker off but it also feeds some other lights and I'd rather disconnect the new dimmer instead if it's that serious. Novo fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Aug 10, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 08:31
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Novo posted:Fair enough. Do I need to turn the circuit off if there is no load on the outlet? Like, I get that this is bad, but is it an emergency? If I need to turn everything off and call someone out tomorrow I will. Otherwise my plan is to to methodically find and replace the bad wire sometime this weekend. It seems like a stressed wire somewhere in the box, I'm pretty sure all my new connections are solid but maybe I will try some of those lever nuts. Anything else that's fed through that box (including circuits that are just passed through under the wire nuts) may be pulling power, and may be causing it to heat up. I don't know if it's a "call someone out immediately" issue, but I'd turn the circuit breaker off, personally. Maybe pull the wire nuts off and straighten the wires, see if you find any obvious issues (like a broken wire).
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Aug 10, 2017 08:36
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Yu-Gi-Ho! posted:Anything else that's fed through that box (including circuits that are just passed through under the wire nuts) may be pulling power, and may be causing it to heat up. Good point, thanks Update: Thanks to this thread's timely suggestions I discovered that the main hot wire nut was the issue even though I hadn't touched it and it looked fine from the outside  When I opened it up there was a lot of corrosion and one of the leads which must've fed the outlet (by process of elimination) had slipped most of the way out of the main bunch.So I cleaned up the leads with a nail file, eliminated two redundant pigtails, reinstalled the nut and now the outlet stays hot even while I poke and prod at all the wire nuts with a wooden spoon I'd like to call this mystery solved and thank y'all once more.
Novo fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 10, 2017 08:38
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Novo posted:Good point, thanks Physics in action! Well done I just had to post this one, recently got promoted to Foreman and took some pictures of the kids and their work.    I love this lift setup they came up with for hanging 8ft strips in a warehouse, it's just ceiling wire and 1/2" EMT and you can do pullups on the drat things.     This company takes pride in doing clean, top quality work, my boss never advertises and constantly turns down jobs because we're just too busy. All on reputation alone. We're about ten guys right now but working on growing and I'm really proud to be a part of this. They grow up so fast  It's fun to work with good people, they're both really sharp and learning fast.
Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 11, 2017 13:57
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Mimesweeper posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBeQoCYyqDY
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Aug 11, 2017 16:53
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I can smell the new commercial building smell/floor glue.
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Aug 11, 2017 19:09
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angryrobots posted:I can smell the new commercial building smell/floor glue. The cove moulding uses glue too.
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Aug 11, 2017 21:16
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