|
AVeryLargeRadish posted:I've been rewatching Kai and I'm up to the Android arc, or as I like to call it "The Humbling of Vegeta", and oh man is watching 18 deflate Vegeta's swollen head satisfying. More like the Hype Train and It’s Subsequent Derailment. Vegeta vs 19 is legitimately cool and a great re-establishing moment for his character.
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:09 |
|
|
jivjov posted:It's been years since I've watched anything from Z other than clips or Abridged, and even longer since I've watched DB or GT. Check my post, I bolded GT for a reason. It's fine to go through the rest, but why would you subject yourself to GT? It's shorter, sure, but it's not worth the time. Just watch the opening, maybe the endings, you've seen the best the series has to offer. Although to be fair, Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku is a top-tier opening, and far more than that awful series deserved. Raxivace posted:I did the same thing a few years ago and it all came to a screeching halt once I got to GT. I can't blame you for that. I haven't tried to do it myself, and I have no intentions to, because GT is not worth it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:14
|
|
|
jivjov posted:Decided that for 2018 I was going to do a mass Dragon Ball rewatch. Gonna do all of Dragon Ball, then Kai, GT, and a Super rewatch through. The worst part is in the general blue saga where Bulma almost gets raped by some RR soldiers. That's not a joke or anything they're really explicit about it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:21
|
|
|
People who say GT isn't as bad as you think are wrong, it's worse. The fight choreography alone is so pathetic even compared to the worst of Z it's incredible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:28
|
|
|
SSJ4 is the stupidest poo poo in the world and actively ruins the entire point of Goku's history of training and adventure. Goku and friends have always been about self improvement not through some weird trick of genetics but by actively working on the betterment of the self through training. So we go from a progression of forms and strength based on that training and mastering each tier of power and form to "SSJ4 which is explicitly about tapping into some racial, bestial potential and nature to power yourself up. It's dumb and bad and goes against everything Goku's worked for in his life. On top of that it's very very ugly and very clearly made by some lovely writer trying to be clever and tie up all of Goku's growth back to his origins in a big bow by bringing up a transformation that had been forgotten and ignored by Toriyama for decades for a drat good reason (The form served its purpose and was now just a dumb old thing that should be forgotten.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:36
|
|
|
SSB is pretty visually boring since it's basically just SS except blue, but I think the "cocoon yourself in power and then 'hatch' out of the power" transformation it involves is really loving cool, even having seen it a bunch of times.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 03:41
|
|
|
RevolverDivider posted:People who say GT isn't as bad as you think are wrong, it's worse. The fight choreography alone is so pathetic even compared to the worst of Z it's incredible. Now I just thinking of the most destructive thing the final villain GT did....blow up a amusement park. Something that was casually done by Android 17 and 18 in the future.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:04
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:I did the same thing a few years ago and it all came to a screeching halt once I got to GT. Well, you of all people should know my track record with "watch all of the thing" projects. It'll be a while before I get to GT at all; let alone get through it. khwarezm posted:The worst part is in the general blue saga where Bulma almost gets raped by some RR soldiers. Yeah, I watched through DB waaaay back when (I had the cool DVD sets with the white backgrounds/kanji on the cover art) and I vaguely remember that. Isn't there some gay-coded officer that Bulma tries to seduce too? RevolverDivider posted:People who say GT isn't as bad as you think are wrong, it's worse. The fight choreography alone is so pathetic even compared to the worst of Z it's incredible. I have such high hopes for the concepts of GT. Like...super 17 and the Shadow Dragons both sound AWESOME! But what little of the show I remember is...yeah...bad fights. ZenMasterBullshit posted:SSJ4 is the stupidest poo poo in the world and actively ruins the entire point of Goku's history of training and adventure. Goku and friends have always been about self improvement not through some weird trick of genetics but by actively working on the betterment of the self through training. So we go from a progression of forms and strength based on that training and mastering each tier of power and form to "SSJ4 which is explicitly about tapping into some racial, bestial potential and nature to power yourself up. It's dumb and bad and goes against everything Goku's worked for in his life. On top of that it's very very ugly and very clearly made by some lovely writer trying to be clever and tie up all of Goku's growth back to his origins in a big bow by bringing up a transformation that had been forgotten and ignored by Toriyama for decades for a drat good reason (The form served its purpose and was now just a dumb old thing that should be forgotten.) Man, sometimes I feel like the only person on the planet who loves the basic idea of SSJ4...a synthesis of Oozaru and SSJ is just such a neat idea to me
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:10
|
|
|
It would be neat if it had build up but it's just a thing that happens with no real connection to the previous forms.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:28
|
|
|
The concept is fine, it's just that the execution just didn't look good. He gains fur and has those terrible pants (and Vegeta even grows new pants that are super tight) and his hair is black. On the other hand I like that God makes him less buff. We have characters like Master Roshi and even Beerus himself that show that ultimate strength isn't about muscles, and Goku becoming a God means he doesn't have to use ki to bulk himself up anymore. Course, Blue is essentially just normal Goku with blue hair, but Blue has changed concepts like twice since we first saw it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:33
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:SSJ4 is the stupidest poo poo in the world and actively ruins the entire point of Goku's history of training and adventure. Goku and friends have always been about self improvement not through some weird trick of genetics but by actively working on the betterment of the self through training  Kanos posted:SSB is pretty visually boring since it's basically just SS except blue, but I think the "cocoon yourself in power and then 'hatch' out of the power" transformation it involves is really loving cool, even having seen it a bunch of times. Goddamn is it. Blue is poo poo but that transformation is breathtaking and I love it. jivjov posted:I have such high hopes for the concepts of GT. Like...super 17 and the Shadow Dragons both sound AWESOME! But what little of the show I remember is...yeah...bad fights. If you ask me, that makes GT actively worse. It was mostly derivative, but it had some very, very good ideas of its own - I still think the Shadow Dragons are one of the best ideas in Dragon Ball period - and it managed to gently caress up each and every single one of them. It's why I dearly hope we'll get a canon adaptation of the Shadow Dragons in Super, seeing how it loves using non-canon stuff and showing how it could've been so much better in the hands of talented writers. Hell, since you mentioned Super 17 - 17 in Super is amazing! See, that's how it's done! quote:Man, sometimes I feel like the only person on the planet who loves the basic idea of SSJ4...a synthesis of Oozaru and SSJ is just such a neat idea to me No, I fully agree. Saiyans are big dumb apes and fusing the bigger dumber ape with the blond dumb ape was a pretty logical thing. How it goes from there to Super Saiyan 4 is beyond me, but it was a pretty logical end-point for Saiyan transformations, even more considering how the prototypes for Super Saiyan 3 had Goku recover his tail too and how SS3 gives a far more primitive appearance as well. It was definitely more fitting than "oh Saiyans can reach apotheosis by holding hands" which came straight out of nowhere, but that's Toriyama for you. Plus the idea of stacking transformations together is basically how Super in general works, so it did that before canon did it. Momomo posted:The concept is fine, it's just that the execution just didn't look good. He gains fur and has those terrible pants (and Vegeta even grows new pants that are super tight) and his hair is black. Those pants are so loving bad, they outright ruin the design, but Xenoverse shows how just changing the pants improves the design a lot. But GT had...unique fashion sense, and a lot of that was Toriyama's fault since he designed Goku and Trunks' outfits (and Pan's, but Pan's slightly more acceptable). I have no idea what he was thinking with them, and I can only imagine he was deliberately trying to sabotage the series. And on Blue...yeah, it's kind of inconsistent, isn't it? It went from being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both name and concept - a God that then turned Super Saiyan - to...the strongest Super Saiyan form with nothing really special about it. But that came with Saiyan Beyond God being quietly retconned away and Super Saiyan God becoming a normal transformation despite how it wasn't meant to be.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:41
|
|
|
jivjov posted:Well, you of all people should know my track record with "watch all of the thing" projects. It'll be a while before I get to GT at all; let alone get through it. Gay-coded nothin', he's pretty explicitly gay, and they do the whole "homosexual = pedophile rapist" thing too just to make sure it's extra offensive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:45
|
|
|
I'm just catching up Super with the latin american dub (it cuts off after the end of the Black saga) and I can't say I'm being impressed with it.The best parts are Goku and Vegeta actually hanging out together and both Bills and Whis being pretty entertaining additions to the cast but the major arcs are actually pretty mediocre. Power scaling had always been an issue on DB but with Super is getting ludicrous. I simply can't take seriously that just in four months Freezer is able to put a fight against Goku and Vegeta becoming/attaining gods/godhood, then you have the additional universes being massively more powerful than the normal universe simply because it wouldn't be a challenge, people pulling power ups out of their rear end, retcons everywhere (why only U7 had five Kaioshins?) and so on. And to boot, SSG and SSB are just lame transformations. DB is in perennial broadcasting here in Mexico and binging through Z, GT and Super at the same time, I'm being more entertained by GT than Super.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:57
|
|
|
DBZ has Goku grow 10x stronger in a week by doing crunches. Piccolo grows more by napping. Power scaling is not a thing in DBZ.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:58
|
|
|
Blaze Dragon posted:And on Blue...yeah, it's kind of inconsistent, isn't it? It went from being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in both name and concept - a God that then turned Super Saiyan - to...the strongest Super Saiyan form with nothing really special about it. But that came with Saiyan Beyond God being quietly retconned away and Super Saiyan God becoming a normal transformation despite how it wasn't meant to be. I mean at first it was supposed to be complete ki control and power, without the drawbacks of normal Super Saiyans, but then they decided it has a big stamina drain, which makes Kaioken Blue make less sense for how Goku was able to use it. It looks good, but conceptually they kind of use it for whatever they need to at any given point. Not exactly rare for this series or anything though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 04:59
|
|
|
Also U7 is not the normal universe whatever that means, it has no reason to be the strongest even though it is outside of Jirens.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:00
|
|
|
Power scaling in Dragon Ball has always been absurd nonsense. Thinking too hard about it is just a recipe for madness.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:01
|
|
|
Same with how the gods are structured. It has never made a bit of sense.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:01
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:DBZ has Goku grow 10x stronger in a week by doing crunches. Z at least were consistent with the powers by limiting things to one universe now that they've opened the multiverse gates the power ups are just getting more contrived and stupid as the series goes on and this in turn takes away the impact from said power ups since you know the next arc will bring a new powerful rear end in a top hat that will chump them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:03
|
|
|
Toriyama never gave a gently caress about power creep and neither should you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:04
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Z at least were consistent with the powers by limiting things to one universe now that they've opened the multiverse gates the power ups are just getting more contrived and stupid as the series goes on and this in turn takes away the impact from said power ups since you know the next arc will bring a new powerful rear end in a top hat that will chump them. This applies to Z. There will always be a new power to chump the old. The series has never worked other ways. At least having other universes gives less contrived threats.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Z at least were consistent with the powers by limiting things to one universe now that they've opened the multiverse gates the power ups are just getting more contrived and stupid as the series goes on and this in turn takes away the impact from said power ups since you know the next arc will bring a new powerful rear end in a top hat that will chump them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:08
|
|
|
Remember the time a scientist built a robot that was 1000 stronger than the strongest human and crushed an ancient alien prophecy power up like it was nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:11
|
|
|
jivjov posted:
Yeah, that's General Blue himself. He has some psychic tricks and later gets killed by Mercenary Tao's tongue. No kidding.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:11
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:Toriyama never gave a gently caress about power creep and neither should you. Pureauthor posted:Power scaling in Dragon Ball has always been absurd nonsense. Thinking too hard about it is just a recipe for madness. Yeah but it has come to a point on which the series is failing to remain consistent with itself. The best example of this is the Black saga. Goku and Vegeta are trashed three different times despite all the training and bullshit transformations but Trunks then is able to actually push back Black and Zamasu on his own just by being pissed and then he gets to kill Merged Zamasu by pulling once of the lamest deus ex machina I've seen since the DBZ movies. And speaking of movies, I got at laugh at Broly's first film having both a red haired Goku and a blue haired Super Saiyan. Pity the movie itself is incredibly boring. EDIT: Nessus posted:How is this different from how Z worked, other than "you were a child for Z, and are an adult for Super"? Because Z didn't have an entire order of characters touted as the strongest fighters ever, and thus the power scaling followed a logical increase nor it had characters previously shown as being outclassed suddenly become able to keep up with the protagonists. Super threw this out the window by introducing first the Gods of Destruction and then by introducing the multiverse. Dark_Tzitzimine fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jan 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:12
|
|
|
To be honest DT is sounds like you want to hate Super and are working backwards trying to justify it. Most your complaints aren't even coherent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:14
|
|
|
trunks didn't kill zamasu I will give you that super is kinda inconsistent about how sheer difference in strength works compared to dbz and sometimes even itself tho
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:17
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:trunks didn't kill zamasu So was Z. Sometimes teamwork can hurt your opponent, sometimes they no sell everything. Frieza and Nappa was the worst at that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:18
|
|
|
Personally, I'd rather say "gently caress power levels" and have a series where everyone (except Tenshinhan) gets to do something and not the late-Z Saiyan Power Hour.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:21
|
|
|
honestly don't know what you're talking about with freeza or nappa is it the destructo disc?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:21
|
|
|
Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Because Z didn't have an entire order of characters touted as the strongest fighters ever, and thus the power scaling followed a logical increase nor it had characters previously shown as being outclassed suddenly become able to keep up with the protagonists. Big Green also had several rubberbanding catchups from absorbing other Nameks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:22
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:honestly don't know what you're talking about with freeza or nappa Both involve everyone fighting them and they actually gain ground even if it's clear their outclassed individually. True they still fail but it isn't the curb stomp it usually is. Hell its actually important to Gohans Arc vs Nappa.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:23
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:So was Z. Not really. Nappa and Freezer were properly depicted to be on an entirely different magnitude of power and it took actual on-screen training/hand-waving for the supporting cast to raise their powers beyond them and even them, by the time Buu saga rolls in they're completely outclassed. Then Super just makes Freezer able to reach powers close to those it took the main cast literal years of training/fighting in-universe with off-screen training (not even a montage), an assassin from another universe can go toe to toe with Goku after becoming a "god", Kaio Shins grow several orders of magnitud in power for no good reason and so on. Manatee Cannon posted:trunks didn't kill zamasu Well, Trunks did kill (or I guess destroy is the proper term) Zamasu's physical body. A feat that only Vegetto came close to accomplish.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:26
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:Toriyama never gave a gently caress about power creep and neither should you. Power levels: Mr. Satan > Almost everyone > Yamcha. As long as this framework is maintained, everything else is negotiable.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:27
|
|
|
Lol so know your okay with hand waves and bullshit transformations if it's on screen? Okay
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:28
|
|
|
"It's okay for people to raise their power level an insane amount if we see them doing pushups" is a really goofy thing to hold to. There. Freeza explained.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:36
|
|
|
Zamasu was stronger than Shin because he actually had a mentor to teach him poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:36
|
|
|
Don't they specifically say Zamasu is weirdly strong for a shin? Like he is a prodigy
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:41
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Don't they specifically say Zamasu is weirdly strong for a shin? probably that too yeah
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:09 |
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Both involve everyone fighting them and they actually gain ground even if it's clear their outclassed individually. True they still fail but it isn't the curb stomp it usually is. goku and piccolo had to work together to beat raditz and they needed everyone alive to contribute to defeating buu, so this argument doesn't make a lot of sense. literally every 1v1 in all of dbz is won by the guy with the higher power level but grouping up is always portrayed as more effective. every arc villain loses to a group effort on some level (gohan needed 16 to die to go ss2, his dad to encourage him, and vegeta to distract cell to win; goku wouldn't have been able to go super saiyan at all if piccolo and krillin hadn't been around; etc) gohan loving up the group attack just further proves that the strategy is effective because nappa admits he would have died if gohan didn't chicken out
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 05:45
|
|